PDA

View Full Version : front brakes tightenng



kruznstude
07-17-2005, 10:01 PM
Hey everybody!
I have a 65 cruiser that you folks helped me with back i april with front end alignment settings. My latest dillema is this....
When i had my car serviced after being off the road for a couple of years, the mechanic, among other things, adjusted the brakes. Now, whenever i go down the road, the front brakes tighten up enough to make the car vibrate and the shoes smoke! The mechanic has loosened/ re-adjusted them 3 times, and it still happens. I have owned the car for 21 years, and am certain that the adjusters are not on backwards/upside down, since this problem has never happened before. Any thoughts on what is happening? The mechanic is scratching his head, as are many old timers in the area.
Thanks so much in advance for your help!!!
Roger Corriveau
portsmouth, NH
tri-spokes chapter member

Roger Corriveau

Sonny
07-18-2005, 01:18 AM
I'd say that you have a master cylinder problem Roger, and it's one of two things, it's transferring fluid between the back and front brake systems, (wear inside the master cylinder), OR, (and usually), it just has some of that slimy crap built up in it, (not a bad problem, just a messy fix).

I dunno how the mechanic adjusted the front brakes, but they need just the slightest "shoes are touching the drum" sound to be correct. They should be adjusted correctly before you do this.....

To make sure that it's not just gunk buildup and before you rebuild/change the master cylinder, get yourself a cheap, plastic turkey baster and about a gallon of plain, 'ol rubbing alcohol. Crack open both of the front wheel cylinder screws, press the brake pedal until the brake fluid is gone, (the rear brake reservoir should stay full). Look in the reservoir, you should see a small hole or two in the bottom, clean it/them out CAREfully with the dull end of a sewing needle then suck the hole out with that turkey baster. Protect ALL paint, fill the baster with rubbing alcohol and squirt it into the hole(s), (you're loosening gunk and cleaning more places than just that hole), then suck up all the rust colored liquid that you can get, repeat until the alcohol comes out clean.

Fill the reservoir with rubbing alcohol, press the brake pedal and keep pressing and filling until the alcohol that's coming out of both front wheel cylinders is clear. Close the bleeder screws and fill the reservoir with clean brake fluid, bleed the front brakes, (starting with the right front), until you get clean brake fluid.

Finally, I'd probably do the same thing to the rear brakes, they're gunked up too.

If the alcohol treatment doesn't do it, rebuild/change the master cylinder.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

65cruiser
07-18-2005, 07:25 AM
Do they go back to normal after the car sits? If so, you need to replace the brake hoses--they are collapsing.

________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser

charley norton
07-18-2005, 12:26 PM
Sounds kinda what happened to my Avanti. Except when I stopped after a drive, the brake lights stayed on. Does yours do that?/

63 R2 Avanti

kruznstude
07-18-2005, 06:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by charley norton

Sounds kinda what happened to my Avanti. Except when I stopped after a drive, the brake lights stayed on. Does yours do that?/

63 R2 Avanti
No, the brake lights works as normal. this has us all scratching our heads! Thanks for the reply!

Roger Corriveau

kruznstude
07-18-2005, 06:38 PM
quote:Originally posted by 65cruiser

Do they go back to normal after the car sits? If so, you need to replace the brake hoses--they are collapsing.

________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser
Yeah, that's seems to be what's happening. The brake hoses are original to the best of my knowledge....at least they haven't been changed in the 21 years I've had the car. Thank's so much for your reply!!

Roger Corriveau

kruznstude
07-18-2005, 06:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by Sonny

I'd say that you have a master cylinder problem Roger, and it's one of two things, it's transferring fluid between the back and front brake systems, (wear inside the master cylinder), OR, (and usually), it just has some of that slimy crap built up in it, (not a bad problem, just a messy fix).

I dunno how the mechanic adjusted the front brakes, but they need just the slightest "shoes are touching the drum" sound to be correct. They should be adjusted correctly before you do this.....

To make sure that it's not just gunk buildup and before you rebuild/change the master cylinder, get yourself a cheap, plastic turkey baster and about a gallon of plain, 'ol rubbing alcohol. Crack open both of the front wheel cylinder screws, press the brake pedal until the brake fluid is gone, (the rear brake reservoir should stay full). Look in the reservoir, you should see a small hole or two in the bottom, clean it/them out CAREfully with the dull end of a sewing needle then suck the hole out with that turkey baster. Protect ALL paint, fill the baster with rubbing alcohol and squirt it into the hole(s), (you're loosening gunk and cleaning more places than just that hole), then suck up all the rust colored liquid that you can get, repeat until the alcohol comes out clean.

Fill the reservoir with rubbing alcohol, press the brake pedal and keep pressing and filling until the alcohol that's coming out of both front wheel cylinders is clear. Close the bleeder screws and fill the reservoir with clean brake fluid, bleed the front brakes, (starting with the right front), until you get clean brake fluid.

Finally, I'd probably do the same thing to the rear brakes, they're gunked up too.

If the alcohol treatment doesn't do it, rebuild/change the master cylinder.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com
I replaced the master cylinder about 14 years ago, but what you are explaining sounds to be a good thing to do at any rate...we'll give it a try and see what happens! Thanks for your reply!!

Roger Corriveau

studegary
07-18-2005, 07:26 PM
Change your three flexible brake lines, carefully check your metal brake lines and flush out your entire brake system for starters. You may have wheel cylinder or master cylinder issues, but these basic things should be done anyway.
I can still picture the shop owner's face the last time that I went into a garage with a late model car and asked them to flush and replace the brake fluid. He asked what problem I was having. I said; none. He said that nobody has ever asked him to do that.

52hawk
07-18-2005, 07:47 PM
The last time I saw a rubber brake hose, faulty inside,but looked fine outside,was on my sons 91 Camaro. Replaced the caliper,brake still stuck,released slowly after a few minutes...new rubber line fixed the problem. Point is,that car was a forth the age as our Studes are!!! [I only diagnosed this problem on the chevy because of knowledge gained from being in the SDC!]
Preventive maintenance could save a bundle,on any age car.

Everybody's Uncle Used To Have One!

rockne10
07-18-2005, 07:52 PM
My company just got five new step vans and the owners manual recommends a complete flush every 20,000 miles.

If you think about it, brake fluid is hygroscopic, that is, it attracts, absorbs and evenly distributes moisture. It acquires the moisture over time from general air humidity or infiltration at fittings or cylinder caps. By evenly distributing the moisture there is no frost to plug line flow. However, over time accumulated moisture within the fluid will oxidize the interior of lines and cylinders and crystalize the interior of the hoses.

This is not an issue with silicone fluid; it has issues all it's own, not being hygroscopic.

So, if you haven't flushed in a few decades, follow Sonny's advice.

Roscomacaw
07-18-2005, 08:19 PM
"So, if you haven't flushed in a few decades, follow Sonny's advice."

And don't expect me to come to your house for a visit either![:0][xx(][:o)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Sonny
07-18-2005, 09:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

Change your three flexible brake lines, carefully check your metal brake lines and flush out your entire brake system for starters. You may have wheel cylinder or master cylinder issues, but these basic things should be done anyway.
I can still picture the shop owner's face the last time that I went into a garage with a late model car and asked them to flush and replace the brake fluid. He asked what problem I was having. I said; none. He said that nobody has ever asked him to do that.


There's no doubt locked brakes could be a rubber brake hose problem. I could agree with a bad rubber distribution hose locking the brakes in a single line system, but if I'm not mistaken, (from memory), the line from the '65 dual master cylinder all the way to the distribution block for the front wheels is steel, steel from the distribution block to the connection tabs on both sides, then rubber hose to the wheels. One bad hose might block return pressure but only one wheel would lock up. A wheel cylinder locking the brake system is impossible. If the wheel cylinder is frozen, that brake doesn't work. If pressure can't get out of a wheel cylinder for some reason, (probably gunk), that brake locks up.

It's ALWAYS a good idea to just change out the rubber brake lines, at least every 10 years or so, or when you don't know HOW old they are. No matter how good they look on the outside, pull an old brake line off and blow through it, what comes out will turn your stomach. I've seen original rubber brake hoses on a LOT of old cars! Yep, but not me, it's simply just cheap insurance to change 'em.

Anyway, both front brakes are smokin' on this car, gotta be that dual master cylinder....

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

N8N
07-19-2005, 08:13 PM
If the brake lights work normally, it HAS to be something downstream from the brake light switch. Most likely culprit is the hoses.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

gordr
07-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Well, the definitive test for this problem is to drive the car until the brakes commence to lockup, then pull over in a safe place, jack up one of the effected wheels, and crack open the bleeder screw.

If you see a jet of fluid squirt out with some pent-up pressure behind it, and the wheel then turns free, then you have a problem with the master cylinder, or with the brake lines running to that wheel (and possibly others). The flex hose is indeed a prime suspect in such a case.

If all you get is dribble of fluid, and the wheel remains locked, then it isn't a hydraulic problem, something is causing the auto adjuster to take up excessively.

I had this exact problem with the L.F. brake on my '63 GT Hawk, and after doing this check and satisfying myself that the problem was NOT hydraulic, I replaced the brake drum on that corner. End of problem. I suspect that the old drum was out of round, although I have not yet got around to miking it.

The car recently did a thousand-mile round trip to the North Central zone meet in Moose Jaw, with nary a hint of brake trouble.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

dpson
07-21-2005, 06:01 AM
Hi Roger,
Longtime no see. Welcome to the forum. One other thought is that your wheel cylinders have partially frozen up due to mosture and corrosion after sitting all these years and this may not be letting the brake shoes fully retract from the drums. This may not be obvious due to the rubber caps over the ends of the wheel cylinders. I had this happen twice on my 51 Commander and to fix it I took the wheel cylinders out, took them apart, honed them, put in new cylinder rebuild kits and switched to silicon (DOT 5) brake fluid. To switch to silicon brake fluid you will have to drain and purge the entire system. This cured the problem and it never occured again. Hope to see you at some of the Tri-spokes meets.



Dan Peterson
Montpelier, VT



1960 Lark Convertible
1962 GT Hawk

curt
07-21-2005, 06:58 AM
DOT 5 will not pick up moisture, BUT any water in the system will find the low spot and a good chsnce for rust at that watery location. For that reason,I strongly suggest DOT 3 and flush fluid yearly.

BRUCESTUDE
07-25-2005, 11:45 PM
If your wheel cylinders are cruddy, replace them, rather than hone 'em. I used to hone them and install kits(cheaper), but then ended up with a leaky one after about a year or so. You never know how many times they've been honed before, and those rubber cups are only good for so big of a diameter.
I agree with the other fellows, thinking it may be a master cylinder problem if it is a split M/S. Maybe a small kink in the front line somewhere? That may prevent fluid, under lower pressure, from returning back to the M/S.