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charley norton
07-01-2005, 07:23 AM
I mentioned this in "Boiling gas" but didn't really get an answer. Is lead additive an absolute every fillup or an occasional thing? I've heard both ways. I've had a stack of pre-70 cars, but only one that I drove every day, a 67 barracuda with the 273 Commando. I had this car for 15 years and drove as a primary the first two. Other than the first few tanks, I rareley used lead additive. I have been told that it isn't that important to use lead additive on short runs, but on trips that run the engine for a few hours, you should use it.I never had trouble with the Cudas' valves, but blew head gaskets like candy, which I blamed on too much compression and not planing the block when I rebuilt it. I noticed that none of the parts stores around here stock lead additive it now.

63 R2 Avanti

Dan White
07-01-2005, 08:16 AM
Hastings makes a lead substitute that I use on almost every tank. Probably not really necessary but can't hurt.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

65cruiser
07-01-2005, 08:25 AM
This was discussed at length here:

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1036&SearchTerms=lead

________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser

curt
07-01-2005, 08:28 AM
Some have told me to use a higher ocatane, like 89 vs. 87, will help the valves . I don't have a clue one way or the other. In the Kaiser Club the word was 4 oz of Marvel Mystry oil per fill up would prevent valve burning. I used a bardol product from Wall-Mart and never had any problems. I gather the Studebakers have a harder metal in the castings and that should help on recession in the seat area. For some reason I thought the Studebaker owners feel the valves were not a problem when just running regular fuel. Any one, what is the thought.

65cruiser
07-01-2005, 10:12 AM
The consensus was that if you have a Studebaker engine, the metallurgy of the engine would prevent valve recession. If it's a later McKinnon engine--maybe not.

At any rate, I'm running no additives in my 6 cylinder McKinnon. When/if it needs a valve job, I'll add hardened seats.


quote:Originally posted by curt

Some have told me to use a higher ocatane, like 89 vs. 87, will help the valves . I don't have a clue one way or the other. In the Kaiser Club the word was 4 oz of Marvel Mystry oil per fill up would prevent valve burning. I used a bardol product from Wall-Mart and never had any problems. I gather the Studebakers have a harder metal in the castings and that should help on recession in the seat area. For some reason I thought the Studebaker owners feel the valves were not a problem when just running regular fuel. Any one, what is the thought.


________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser

charley norton
07-01-2005, 11:57 AM
This explained everything. Thanks for the link!!


quote:Originally posted by 65cruiser

This was discussed at length here:

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/sdc_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1036&SearchTerms=lead

________________________
Mark Anderson
http://home.alltel.net/anderm
1965 Studebaker Cruiser


63 R2 Avanti

rockne10
07-01-2005, 09:07 PM
I've been driving Studebakers for thirty-five years, from 1933 models to 1963 models, and never added anything or used anything but regular gas and had no problems. I can't call that advice, only experience.

mjeansonne
07-02-2005, 09:41 AM
Years ago, when I was in Law School, I did a paper in Environmental Law concerning use of unleaded fuels in pre-1970-1975 cars (can't remember the exact date). I am looking for a copy of the paper, but can't find it in my mountains of "stuff".

Anyway, the research I did indicated that tetraethylead ("lead") in gasoline provided a type of "coating" on the valve surface that acted as a cushion for the valve. Without lead in gasoline, the result would be serious valve recission. This is particularly true in engines used at high speed and under heavy use such as towing. Apparently the lead would also provide cushioning for some time after the discontinuation of use of leaded fuel. My research for the paper showed the results in photographs and writing of the failure to use leaded fuel in an engine designed for its use.

At the time I was in law school, I was driving a 1950 Champion that I had put a replacement block I found, still in a crate and manufactured in 1963. When it was time to go home on Fridays, I would drive from Baton Rouge, LA to Alexandria, LA. Though the speed limit was only 55 mph, I would cruise at least at 70 mph... sometimes more! The car had overdrive, which was helpful. Leaded gasoline was outlawed about that time so I had to use unleaded fuel. It never skipped a beat and served me well after law school. Still have the car, but it needs a complete restoration after all these years... maybe one day!!

All the other Studes I have/had are run on unleaded fuel, with no problem. So I accept the theory that Stude valves and seats used harder metal than do the other Brand X, which were the subject of the tests I used on my research.

The answer... I DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

JDP
07-02-2005, 10:22 AM
The general opinion on Studebakers and unleaded fuel is that with few exceptions, it not a problem. If you have a truck and tow a traiier, maybe, but in normal use, I've never seen a problem.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

big jim
07-02-2005, 11:34 AM
Hi Mike... havent seen your Hawk lately hows it coming? interesting comment on your "lead research" . Personally i'm not as concerned about lead content, as octane. the avanti r-2 runs so much better on 103 low lead than the readily available 92 no lead, i have "no choice"but to keep using it. I am due to pick up another barrel soon and will give you a call. Have a blast from the past...drive a STUDEBAKER.

big jim
07-02-2005, 11:45 AM
addition to previous comment: for some reason the octane boosters available just dont seem to do the trick. i've tried several brands, it just "aint" the same result. have fun gang.

Tom B
07-02-2005, 08:46 PM
At the Co-Operator session at South Bend in '02, Carl Thom spoke on the subject of lead additive. His experience was of regringing one valve in an engine, driving the car to a midwestern Int'l Meet, and home again. That one valve, with new metal, had recessed about 1/4 inch, the other valves had not. His advice, if you grind the valve seats, use lead additive. If the seats have been run with leaded gas they don't need additive.

I put it in both my Studes, just in case.

Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI

charley norton
07-06-2005, 03:17 PM
Thats strange that a reground seat would be any different than the rest. I've tried the 104 octane boost and others and I haven't seen any difference either. They say that most octane booster is Tolulene anyway, and that can be bought at the store for $5 bucks a gallon. The R2 engine has such a lower compression than the R1 that I feel(after talking to Jon Meyer) it will be fine on 93 octane gas. Of course, if I plan on having fun and running up the rpm's, I'll wish I had the higher octane fuel as the supercharger will boost the compression.

63 R2 Avanti

curt
07-06-2005, 05:29 PM
Correct answer, I know not, BUT; I have been told run higher Octane and there is no need for lead additives, I have also heard that if the engine ran on leaded gas there is no need for additives unless you regrind the seats. All hear say from good old car folks from past years.

wagone
07-06-2005, 06:42 PM
Greetings all: I have been interested in this issue of valve recession due to no-lead gasoline for quite a number of years now and so it must be time to put my two cents worth in and get everyone mad at me. I must be the only one old enough (ha ha) to remember the days of Standard/Amoco no-lead high test gas. The common name, in my part of the country at least, was "white gas" (apparently no coloring was added to this gas and hence "white gas" was what it was called). Now Standard Oil sold this stuff by the tons and advertised it as better for the valves and plugs because the leaded gas tended to foul these two components. And nobody I ever talked to complained about excessive valve seat wear using "white gas". Now for the people today driving their Studes (or other old car--whatever) 20,000 miles or more each year might have cause for concern, but most of us in the hobby are not in that class. What am I missing guys? I've just never had that much of an issue with unleaded gas. As for missing the octane, in my R2 Avanti the only place for concern is a hard pull from low rpm--which is a no-no in anybody's book--at higher rpm and with the s'charger winding up and pressure raising the compression the engine is not working that hard what with my 3:70 gears. Not as hard as a hard pull from low revs--which is where you really have to be on the lookout for spark knock. Maybe I'm the one missing the boat, but what about the white gas of years gone by--it wasn't, certainly, the highest octane gas and probably only suitable up to about 10:1 compression, but valve seat wear? I dunno.
wagone and Avanti I

curt
07-06-2005, 09:12 PM
Very good point about Amaco Standard Oil Hi-test unleaded. Most of those cars most likely got SOME unleaded gas which would support the statement that ifin they had run on leaded gas the seats would not recede. I know of a case where the valves burned on a solid dose of unleaded Amaco, Friends around 1970 took a trip (in a new Plymouth )of several weeks and drove the country,NW,SW and back to PA.. They burned a valve. What is up?

charley norton
07-07-2005, 08:58 PM
I've never heard that about once on leaded, unleaded is ok thing. How is that? Does the lead that it once got permanently protect the metal unless disturbed(regrind ect)?? It doesn't make sence but I believe it.

63 R2 Avanti

hank63
07-07-2005, 09:40 PM
In the beginning of the leaded versus unleaded fuel debate, there was a claim that older engines would have a "lead memory" which would last for quite some time. It would eventually be lost (evaporate?). I can't vouch for that theory, but the valve grind story seems to fit in with it.
/ H

mjeansonne
07-07-2005, 09:40 PM
As I stated earlier in this thread, the research I did seemed to point to the fact that tetraethylead does indeed form a barrier when burned. It won't last forever, but depending on how much lead was originally burned in the engine will depend upon how much protection is built up.

Laisez le bon temps roulez avec un Studebaker

studegary
07-08-2005, 01:59 PM
I also remember high test Amoco unleaded gasoline and experiences with it. The Amoco gasoline had something else in it to act in place of the missing lead. Boron comes to mind, but I don't remember if that is correct.
I had a friend that always used Amoco no lead. He rebuilt his Packard Hawk engine, which was worn, but clean inside. After using only Amoco no lead for a period of time, he found his spark plugs to have large deposits. Upon pulling a head, he found a large amount of deposits in the combustion chamber. After cleaning the engine out, he ran a mixture of fuels and didn't have any further problems.
I believe that most people that used Amoco no lead gasoline ran it in an engine that had been run on other fuels previously or else didn't exclusively run Amoco no lead.
IIRC, only the high test Amoco was no lead.
I believe that engines that have been run on leaded gas retain lead protection for a long time. Unless you grind in new valve seats, I can not see a problem running your Studebaker V8 on unleaded gasoline.

curt
07-08-2005, 09:28 PM
For some reason I like the 'snake oil'additive in the gas to reduce valve recession. My additive has been 4 oz of Marvel Mystery Oil to a fill up. A fill up is about 12 to 14 gallons. My experience has been with a Kaiser 6 cyl and their block is a med hardness metal , I understand Studebakers are cast with a harder metal.[:I]

curt
07-09-2005, 03:15 PM
If recession is heat related , I would think the 160 degree thermostat would keep temperature to a mim. as a factor in recession.

DEEPNHOCK
07-09-2005, 06:25 PM
Two hundred and fifty thousandths???!!!!
That can't be right...
There isn't enough camshaft for that to happen....
Twenty five thousandths maybe....
And how much of that was due to regrinding the valve?
Just curious...
Jeff




quote:Originally posted by Tom B

At the Co-Operator session at South Bend in '02, Carl Thom spoke on the subject of lead additive. His experience was of regringing one valve in an engine, driving the car to a midwestern Int'l Meet, and home again. That one valve, with new metal, had recessed about 1/4 inch, the other valves had not. His advice, if you grind the valve seats, use lead additive. If the seats have been run with leaded gas they don't need additive.

I put it in both my Studes, just in case.

Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI



DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
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'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
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