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PalmerGA
06-11-2005, 01:08 PM
My original Carter AFB 4bbl is puking gas all over the place. My buddy thinks the float is stuck (or shot) or something else internal is gunked up. I'd like to retain the original carb rather than replace it.

Has anyone dealt with one of these places where you send your carb off to them and the completely rebuild/recondition it for a couple of hundred bucks? Is it worth it? Any suggestions as to who to send it to?

Thanks. jsp

'63 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
06-11-2005, 03:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA

My original Carter AFB 4bbl is puking gas all over the place. My buddy thinks the float is stuck (or shot) or something else internal is gunked up. I'd like to retain the original carb rather than replace it.

Has anyone dealt with one of these places where you send your carb off to them and the completely rebuild/recondition it for a couple of hundred bucks? Is it worth it? Any suggestions as to who to send it to?
Thanks. jsp
'63 Daytona Convertible

It sounds like your buddy may be right. Yep, there's places to send that old carb, and probably the best bet if you're dead serious about keeping the WCFB, since the old carbs tend to get porous and loaded with vacuum leaks over the years. The good companies recoat them and bush the throttle shafts to cure a lot of the ills.

BUT, why not pop that thing off and try a rebuild kit yourself? It sounds like the floats may have developed a leak or mebbe there's just some crap in the needle and seat. There's a lot that you can check and/or at least get an idea about what you're facing as far as a rebuild. OR, set that old carb aside and slap on a new Edelbrock, they really make a great difference. That, and you'll have sticker shock when you see what the right rebuild on the old carb. is gonna cost! :( A new Edelbrock, with a warranty, is $239.00, all day long, at any good FLAPS. If ya ever sell the car, just tell 'em that the original carb. is in the trunk. ;)

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Mike Van Veghten
06-11-2005, 04:30 PM
I agree with Sonny.
Unless you send it to a "custom/hot rod" type shop, you probably will "not" be happy when you get it back.

Most standard rebuild shops (maybe not all !)....you'll be lucky if you get all of YOUR parts put back in, e.g. boosters (4 ea.), metering rods (2 ea.), correct jets (4 ea.), etc., etc.

I can give you two horror stories about plain ol Rochester 2 barrels that people sent in and came back with incorrect parts inside of them and did not run as good as before the "rebuild" !

Get a rebuild kit, some carb. cleaner (soak style) and do it your self.
If you can take it off....you can rebuild it. Just follow the instructions. The floats......drop'em in water....do they float or sink? Shake'em a little, do they make sloshing sounds?

PalmerGA
06-12-2005, 03:12 PM
Thanks Sonny and Mike.... I see your point. I may just do the rebuild thing or a replacement carb. 'Preciate it.

'63 Daytona Convertible

PalmerGA
07-25-2005, 02:34 PM
Time for a carb update: I decided to go with a new carb and have installed an Edelbrock 600 cfm that sits on a 1 inch riser to get the linkage clearance that I need. I replaced the fuel, vac, and PCV hoses and the fuel filter as well. I am a bit leary about the throttle linkage though.

As you know, the end of the throttle linkage that bolts to the carb is a very short 1/4" threaded stud. The carb linkage hole that this connects to is much larger than the one on the original Carter AFB. I've not found a way to compensate for the size difference other than to build up the threaded stud with washers. Is this going to be safe and reliable? It doesn't give me a very good feeling.

Does anyone know of another linkage that I could use without the need for modification, or is there a better approach I should be considering? Thanks (again).

Palmer

'63 Daytona Convertible

Mike Van Veghten
07-25-2005, 02:51 PM
JSP,

As long as you haven't started it yet..............?
Unless you have a pretty highly modified 259 or a real hot rod 289, you might think about swapping the 600 for a 500cfm carburetor.
Better throttle response, better milage, better all around drivablity.

As for the linkage, there should be a 1/4" (or so) right below the big "bushing" hole. Use that one, the stud should work just fine. Slightly quicker reaction, you'll never notice it past the first 100 miles.

PalmerGA
07-25-2005, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the tip Mike. I haven't noticed the smaller hole, but I'll look again. Also, I've heard varying opinions about the 600 vs 500 cfm and came to the conclusion that the 500 cfm might not have quite enough "ooomph" for my 289 Power Pack engine. What are the main pros for picking the 500 vs the cons for picking the 600?

Thanks again.

Jim

'63 Daytona Convertible

Tom B
07-25-2005, 05:18 PM
One consideration is the requirements of the engine. A 289 at 6,000 rpm will use a theoretical 501.74 cubic feet of air per minute. Nominally an 85% factor is thrown in, resulting in 426.48 Cu Ft per minute. Anything over 500 is just wasted, unless you plan to exceed 7,000, which requires 497 Cu Ft.

Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI

Mike Van Veghten
07-25-2005, 05:42 PM
Jim,

This is what will happen...
You put on the 600 and it'll feel just fine. You'll play with the jetting and you may get it a bit better running and you'll be fairly happy.

AND / OR

You'll borrow a good 500 Carter / Edelbrock, put it on...and you'll say...yea, the smaller carburetor does work better, then you'll take the time to tune it properly...power will go up, drivability will go up and the milage will go up.

Trust me....been playing with this stuff a long time. Some combinations you can go oversize on the carburetor...but as Tom said, this isn't one of them. The 500cfm carb. is a real good all around size for all but the highest powered Stude engines of ANY size.

On one engine I had in a Chevy II...I played with spacers, just spacers. 1/2", 1", open, 4 hole.....months. People don't take the time to learn what does what and what "other" adjustments can be made that will effect the combination. Everything is a combination. You have to take the time to adjust everything "to each other" to get the most out of what you're playing with.

In case you're wondering.........no..I don't have any hair!

PalmerGA
07-25-2005, 07:20 PM
Okay guys... you've convinced me to try the 500 (I haven't put any as in the 600 yet). Thanks for your input. I'll report results soon. ;)

'63 Daytona Convertible

CKOT
08-02-2005, 12:33 PM
I am interested in replacing the Carter WCFB with the Edelbrock 500 as well, is there a particular Edelbrock part number I need to be concerned with? Thanks for the help.

PalmerGA
08-03-2005, 11:31 AM
quote:Originally posted by CKOT

I am interested in replacing the Carter WCFB with the Edelbrock 500 as well, is there a particular Edelbrock part number I need to be concerned with? Thanks for the help.
The 500 CFM Edelbrock w/ electric choke is #1403. W/ manual choke is #1404. Mine (#1403) should be in today, through Advance Auto Parts. Anxious to get it installed and fired up.

'63 Daytona Convertible

CKOT
08-03-2005, 02:57 PM
Excellent, thanks for the info. We have an Advance in town as well, think I'll head down and get mine as well

PalmerGA
08-03-2005, 05:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by CKOT

Excellent, thanks for the info. We have an Advance in town as well, think I'll head down and get mine as well
The only downside is that they have to order it from the factory. Mine took 5 days to get via UPS. Just picked it up!

'63 Daytona Convertible

CKOT
08-04-2005, 08:35 AM
Dumb question, but I have a WCFB currently installed. I know the throat size is smaller than the AFB/Edelbrock, what about the mounting to the intake? Will the Edelbrock fit on a intake that ad a WCFB?

PalmerGA
08-04-2005, 11:00 AM
quote:Originally posted by CKOT

Dumb question, but I have a WCFB currently installed. I know the throat size is smaller than the AFB/Edelbrock, what about the mounting to the intake? Will the Edelbrock fit on a intake that ad a WCFB?I cannot answer your question, but I'm sure someone here can. A little help, please....

'63 Daytona Convertible

Mike Van Veghten
08-04-2005, 11:34 AM
An adapter plate may be required if the hold down locations are different.
They're about 1/2" thick, right stud loations, larger throttle bores and two gaskets. Fits Holley, Carter, Edelbrock, Preditor, BG, Proform.
If your local parts house doesn't have them, look in the net for Jegs or Summit. Big cataloge locations. They'll have them at a good price.

Note: it would be a good idea to remove the manifold and grind the throttle holes larger in the manifold to match the adapter. Otherwise the full benifet of the new carburetor will not be noticed.

PalmerGA
08-13-2005, 08:04 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

JSP,

As long as you haven't started it yet..............?
Unless you have a pretty highly modified 259 or a real hot rod 289, you might think about swapping the 600 for a 500cfm carburetor.
Better throttle response, better milage, better all around drivablity.

As for the linkage, there should be a 1/4" (or so) right below the big "bushing" hole. Use that one, the stud should work just fine. Slightly quicker reaction, you'll never notice it past the first 100 miles.UPDATE: I got my Edelbrock 500cfm (#1403) carb and installed it. The swivel conection on the linkage was worn to where it wouldn't stay together, so I order a whole new linkage setup from Stephen Allen. Got it yesterday and installed it too (in the "small hole" on the carb linkage - it took a slight reeming out with a drill bit for it to fit). A few connections (electric choke, fuel line, vacuum lines, etc.) and about 30 seconds of cranking later and my baby roared to life. Hot damn! It runs a little rough, but a buddy of mine is going to install the new Petronix ignition that I bought a while back and get her all smoothed out for cruisin'.

I do have one more question for y'all, regarding vacuum lines. There are TWO short pieces of metal tubing coming out of the passenger side of the intake manifold. I have ONE vacuum tube-port on the front of the carb and another (which I plugged) on the back. Can anyone tell me how these vacuum fitting should be routed... what goes where? I have plenty of tubing, but am not sure how to connect the ports. Any suggestions?

Thanks, as always.

Jim

'63 Daytona Convertible

N8N
08-13-2005, 08:08 PM
There are no connections there with an Edelbrock carb. That is for the choke heater, and an Edelbrock has either a manual or electric choke. Only vacuum connections you should have are distributor advance, PCV, and power brakes if you have them.

BTW if you have an automatic transmission you will probably find that using the small hole on the Edelbrock throttle linkage will cause your transmission to work incorrectly. You will need to use the LARGE hole (I found some washers that worked OK) and then readjust the throttle pressure linkage to the trans per the shop manual (or just play with the length of the throttle rod back to the bellcrank if you haven't touched anything else.)

good luck,

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
62 Daytona hardtop
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
08-13-2005, 08:23 PM
How big are these two "vacuum ports" you speak of. One of them should be a metered vacuum port that goes to the distributor vacuum modifier. Then there should be a port for your PCV valve. (We're speaking ports ON the carb here.)
Since you have an electric choke on the carb, you can just ignore the two small tubes sticking out of the manifold runner.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Sonny
08-13-2005, 08:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA


quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

JSP,

As long as you haven't started it yet..............?
Unless you have a pretty highly modified 259 or a real hot rod 289, you might think about swapping the 600 for a 500cfm carburetor.
Better throttle response, better milage, better all around drivablity.

As for the linkage, there should be a 1/4" (or so) right below the big "bushing" hole. Use that one, the stud should work just fine. Slightly quicker reaction, you'll never notice it past the first 100 miles.UPDATE: I got my Edelbrock 500cfm (#1403) carb and installed it. The swivel conection on the linkage was worn to where it wouldn't stay together, so I order a whole new linkage setup from Stephen Allen. Got it yesterday and installed it too (in the "small hole" on the carb linkage - it took a slight reeming out with a drill bit for it to fit). A few connections (electric choke, fuel line, vacuum lines, etc.) and about 30 seconds of cranking later and my baby roared to life. Hot damn! It runs a little rough, but a buddy of mine is going to install the new Petronix ignition that I bought a while back and get her all smoothed out for cruisin'.

I do have one more question for y'all, regarding vacuum lines. There are TWO short pieces of metal tubing coming out of the passenger side of the intake manifold. I have ONE vacuum tube-port on the front of the carb and another (which I plugged) on the back. Can anyone tell me how these vacuum fitting should be routed... what goes where? I have plenty of tubing, but am not sure how to connect the ports. Any suggestions?

Thanks, as always.

Jim

'63 Daytona Convertible


Jim, Nate pretty much hit all the right points. You don't need to do anything with the choke pre-heat tubes sticking out of the intake on the choke side of the carb. But, you should have two vacuum ports on the front of the carb, one "timed port" and one full vacuum. You have to connect your distributor to the timed port, NOT the continuous vacuum side. I simply use a piece of rubber vaccum tubing cut nice and neat to fit. It's easy to tell which port on the carb. is correct, (even without the Edelbrock directions sheet), ANY port where you can feel vacuum when you cover the end with your finger, when the car is at normal curb idle rpm, is NOT the right one...

That big vacuum port on the back of the carb. is for a PCV system, if your engine is so equipped. Personally, I wouldn't use any carb. connection for a power brake system. I feel strongly that vacuum for a brake booster should always come straight off the intake manifold.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

PalmerGA
08-14-2005, 08:31 AM
Thanks for the replies. Here's what I get from all of this info. I had already made the PCV connection and the vacuum advance connection. The manufacturer's directions made that pretty clear. I'm thinking that I can just use a small piece of tubing to make a loop between the two manifold tubes (just to close them off), since I now have an electric choke. I simply installed the supplied plug in the rear port. I don't have power brakes or an A/T, so I guess the question is what to do with the final small vacuum tubing connector on the front right side of the carb. I suppose I'll just put a short piece of tube on it and plug it.

I went out this morning and hit the key and she fired right up. Easiest start in the four years I've had it.

'63 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
08-14-2005, 04:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA

Thanks for the replies. Here's what I get from all of this info. I had already made the PCV connection and the vacuum advance connection. The manufacturer's directions made that pretty clear. I'm thinking that I can just use a small piece of tubing to make a loop between the two manifold tubes (just to close them off), since I now have an electric choke. I simply installed the supplied plug in the rear port. I don't have power brakes or an A/T, so I guess the question is what to do with the final small vacuum tubing connector on the front right side of the carb. I suppose I'll just put a short piece of tube on it and plug it.

I went out this morning and hit the key and she fired right up. Easiest start in the four years I've had it.

'63 Daytona Convertible


That's exactly right Jim, plug the port that you're not using for the distributor. If you don't plug that port it makes for a very bad vacuum leak, impossible to tune the car correctly. In fact, there should have been a nice little black rubber cap for it in the parts kit, with the new carb.. If not, you can get fancy and buy them at any parts store, (they come in colors too!)

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Roscomacaw
08-14-2005, 05:01 PM
Jim,

Those two tubes sticking out of the intake manifold - there's no vacuum or pressure on them at all since your new carb has an electric choke. So it doesn't matter if you close them with a loop of hose or not.
But as Sonny explains, any uncapped or unused ports on the carb itself can be the source of a vacuum leak that you'll never be able to rightly tune your way around. [}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

PalmerGA
08-14-2005, 06:31 PM
quote:That's exactly right Jim, plug the port that you're not using for the distributor. If you don't plug that port it makes for a very bad vacuum leak, impossible to tune the car correctly. In fact, there should have been a nice little black rubber cap for it in the parts kit, with the new carb.. If not, you can get fancy and buy them at any parts store, (they come in colors too!)

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

By golly, Sonny, there is a nice little cap in the bag of goodies that came with it. Thanks. The only other thing I'm considering now is to use the rear port for the PCV connection, instead of the front one... just to minimize the visible hoses. Gotta get a fitting for it though (not one in the bag). Then I'll just plug the one in front where it's presently connected.

Thanks to all for the pointers. I think we've got a wimmer. You guys are great! :-)

'63 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
08-14-2005, 10:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA


quote:That's exactly right Jim, plug the port that you're not using for the distributor. If you don't plug that port it makes for a very bad vacuum leak, impossible to tune the car correctly. In fact, there should have been a nice little black rubber cap for it in the parts kit, with the new carb.. If not, you can get fancy and buy them at any parts store, (they come in colors too!)

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

By golly, Sonny, there is a nice little cap in the bag of goodies that came with it. Thanks. The only other thing I'm considering now is to use the rear port for the PCV connection, instead of the front one... just to minimize the visible hoses. Gotta get a fitting for it though (not one in the bag). Then I'll just plug the one in front where it's presently connected.

Thanks to all for the pointers. I think we've got a wimmer. You guys are great! :-)

'63 Daytona Convertible


You're very welcome, but, D'oh! I didn't know that you were using the front, full vacuum port, for the PVC system Jim! You can't use that front port for PCV, it's to be used for a "closed" vacuum system only, (modern anti-pollution systems specifically). That front port picks vacuum up from a different place than a port that's supposed to be used for PCV. Use that big, fat port, (the one you're getting the fitting for), directly in the back of the carb., that is the correct PCV port. That rear port uses a fairly large hose connector, (early Ford/Chevy style PCV valve), that is the same size as the vacuum connection on the PCV valve. That port in the rear was designed specifically for "open" PCV vacuum systems. It returns the un-burnt gasses to the right place in the carb to re-burn them. You'll clog the carb. up if you use the front port for PCV. Oh! Use only a single connection PCV valve. I'll bet it'll run even BETTER when ya get it plumbed up according to Hoyle. ;)

One last thought/hint, I'd suggest that you check/set the dwell and timing, then tune in that carb., in that exact order, for the best results with that new carb..

Let us know how it goes will ya?


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

PalmerGA
08-15-2005, 02:27 PM
D'OH!!!!

Thanks for the additional info Sonny. I've only run the car for a few minutes since installing the new carb, so I doubt my dumb (ignorant, actually) stunt with the PCV hook-up did any harm. I got a hose connection today for the rear vacuum port to properly connect to the PCV, and a plug for the big port fitting in the front of the carb (which will now be unused). I was hoping I could just use the 1/4" plug that came with the carb, but the front fitting is pressed in... not threaded. Anyway, that should wrap it up.

Given my lack of time and skill for timing/ignition matters, my buddy down the street is going to square away the timing/dwell and install the Petronix ignition THEN tune the new carb for me. It might be a week or so before I reply about how that goes. I'll be out of town next week when he does it, but I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks again for everything.

'63 Daytona Convertible

DEEPNHOCK
08-15-2005, 04:18 PM
You can mount a more modern AFB carb onto a WCFB manifold a couple four different ways....

1) Get the correct late model AFB Stude cast iron manifold.
(these tend to be pricey, as they are few in number)

2) You can have your manifold machined on the secondary bores so the AFB secondary butterflies will open fully without interference.

3) You can install a 'stack type' heat insulator gasket (made by Mr. Gasket, or Edelbrock) that will raise the carb up enough to allow the secondary butterflies to open without hitting the unmodified openings in the manifold. This will work, but there will be a pretty good sized 'step' that will cause a lot of turbulence and will not enhance airflow.

4) You can install a modified conversion manifold that has the openings milled out to allow an AFB to fit without interference. A few vendors are making these now using 2bbl manifolds as base units.
For picturs about this conversion go to:
http://community.webshots.com/album/169539546yHBuvB
(Check the 'for sale' section here for a modified manifold)

--------

As far as other modifications needed, the lower throttle link piece on the AFB 'may' need to be bent slightly or trimmed to keep from hitting the intake manifold. The OE choke tube(s) (if on an electric choke AFB) need to be either bent inward and down for clearance, or cut completely off to keep them from interfering with the RHS secondary throttle linkage pieces.

My ony suggestion is to keep the cfm small on a Stude engine. A 500cfm AFB is plent big for a 259 and a stock 289. Unless you have added a Harbit cam or done some head work, I'd stick with the 500 for street driving. For sport and performance driving, the 600 cfm is a decent choince for a hot 289. Better too small than too big.

Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]


(quote)
Dumb question, but I have a WCFB currently installed. I know the throat size is smaller than the AFB/Edelbrock, what about the mounting to the intake? Will the Edelbrock fit on a intake that ad a WCFB?


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

DEEPNHOCK
08-15-2005, 04:22 PM
According to an AFB website, the one large port is for the PCV valve and the other large port is for the fuel vapor recovery line.
The one small port is for manifold vacuum (vacuum at idle) and the other small port is for 'ported vacuum' (no vacuum at idle, but vacuum at higher..off idle' rpm.
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA

D'OH!!!!
Thanks for the additional info Sonny. I've only run the car for a few minutes since installing the new carb, so I doubt my dumb (ignorant, actually) stunt with the PCV hook-up did any harm. I got a hose connection today for the rear vacuum port to properly connect to the PCV, and a plug for the big port fitting in the front of the carb (which will now be unused). I was hoping I could just use the 1/4" plug that came with the carb, but the front fitting is pressed in... not threaded. Anyway, that should wrap it up.
Given my lack of time and skill for timing/ignition matters, my buddy down the street is going to square away the timing/dwell and install the Petronix ignition THEN tune the new carb for me. It might be a week or so before I reply about how that goes. I'll be out of town next week when he does it, but I'll keep y'all posted.
Thanks again for everything.
'63 Daytona Convertible


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

60Lark
08-23-2005, 02:18 PM
I am new to this forum, but have owned Studebakers for years. I have a 1960 Lark VIII with the 259 engine. I replaced my Carter WCFB with an Edelbrock a while back and I thought I had it correct, but after reading this discussion, I am now confused. One of the posted statements was to connect the vacuum advance to the full port vacuum port which is the small vacuum port on the driver's side, another posted statement was that the vacuum advance should be conected to the full vacuum port, which is the vacuum port on the passenger side, and then another posted statement was that, with the electric choke no vacuum ports are to be used and all should be sealed, if this is the case, where does the vacuum advance go? Please help clear up my confusion. I also would like to ask another question, when I replaced my carb. I was instructed to install the 1406 / 600 cfm unit, which is the carb I installed on my Lark, which from what I have been reading was bad information, will the excessive amount of cfm create a problem?

Confused,
60Lark Phil

PalmerGA
08-27-2005, 04:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by 60Lark

I am new to this forum, but have owned Studebakers for years. I have a 1960 Lark VIII with the 259 engine. I replaced my Carter WCFB with an Edelbrock a while back and I thought I had it correct, but after reading this discussion, I am now confused. One of the posted statements was to connect the vacuum advance to the full port vacuum port which is the small vacuum port on the driver's side, another posted statement was that the vacuum advance should be conected to the full vacuum port, which is the vacuum port on the passenger side, and then another posted statement was that, with the electric choke no vacuum ports are to be used and all should be sealed, if this is the case, where does the vacuum advance go? Please help clear up my confusion. I also would like to ask another question, when I replaced my carb. I was instructed to install the 1406 / 600 cfm unit, which is the carb I installed on my Lark, which from what I have been reading was bad information, will the excessive amount of cfm create a problem?

Confused,
60Lark Phil
Hey Phil. My stock 289 had a Carter AFB and the Edelbrock equivalent is the 500 cfm #1403 (I got the electric choke model). Several folks here referenced calculations that determined the right cfm, and I'd certainly take their word on it.

As far as the hose hook-ups go, my vacuum advance is connected to the small front passenger side fitting. The large fitting to the right of it is capped, as is the small front driver's side fitting. PCV is connected to the large rear port (I had to buy a fitting). That's it for mine and a very knowledgable friend of mine has checked it out and believes it to be correct.

I'm sure someone here will clear this up for you. Good luck.

'63 Daytona Convertible

60Lark
08-28-2005, 01:08 AM
Thanks for the help, It is much appreciated.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

blackhawk
08-28-2005, 12:27 PM
Mike,

I have a new #1406 600 cfm Edelbrock that is still in the box. I bought it to put on the R1 engine in my '63 Hawk. This is an original setup; it has the AFB that came with the R1 engine from the factory. I am still agonizing over the 500 or 600 cfm question. Based on the displacement, the 500 cfm is plenty (I don't run it at high RPM). Is there enough difference in the R1 over the stock 289 that it warrants use of the 600 cfm carb over the 500 cfm one?

If I should go with the 500 cfm carb, where can I order one at a decent price? The local NAPA store charged me $279 for the #1406 carb which they stock. They do not stock the #1403 and want nearly $500 for it if they order it!

Dale


quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Jim,

This is what will happen...
You put on the 600 and it'll feel just fine. You'll play with the jetting and you may get it a bit better running and you'll be fairly happy.

AND / OR

You'll borrow a good 500 Carter / Edelbrock, put it on...and you'll say...yea, the smaller carburetor does work better, then you'll take the time to tune it properly...power will go up, drivability will go up and the milage will go up.

Trust me....been playing with this stuff a long time. Some combinations you can go oversize on the carburetor...but as Tom said, this isn't one of them. The 500cfm carb. is a real good all around size for all but the highest powered Stude engines of ANY size.

On one engine I had in a Chevy II...I played with spacers, just spacers. 1/2", 1", open, 4 hole.....months. People don't take the time to learn what does what and what "other" adjustments can be made that will effect the combination. Everything is a combination. You have to take the time to adjust everything "to each other" to get the most out of what you're playing with.

In case you're wondering.........no..I don't have any hair!

PalmerGA
08-29-2005, 01:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by blackhawk

Mike,

I have a new #1406 600 cfm Edelbrock that is still in the box. I bought it to put on the R1 engine in my '63 Hawk. This is an original setup; it has the AFB that came with the R1 engine from the factory. I am still agonizing over the 500 or 600 cfm question. Based on the displacement, the 500 cfm is plenty (I don't run it at high RPM). Is there enough difference in the R1 over the stock 289 that it warrants use of the 600 cfm carb over the 500 cfm one?

If I should go with the 500 cfm carb, where can I order one at a decent price? The local NAPA store charged me $279 for the #1406 carb which they stock. They do not stock the #1403 and want nearly $500 for it if they order it!

DaleI can't answer your cfm question with any degree of confidence, but I can tell you that I got my Edelbrock #1403 at my local Advance Auto Parts store for $299. NAPA has disappointed me lately, so I always check with AAP first. Good Luck.

'63 Daytona Convertible

Sonny
08-29-2005, 09:42 PM
quote:Originally posted by blackhawk

Mike,

I have a new #1406 600 cfm Edelbrock that is still in the box. I bought it to put on the R1 engine in my '63 Hawk. This is an original setup; it has the AFB that came with the R1 engine from the factory. I am still agonizing over the 500 or 600 cfm question. Based on the displacement, the 500 cfm is plenty (I don't run it at high RPM). Is there enough difference in the R1 over the stock 289 that it warrants use of the 600 cfm carb over the 500 cfm one?

If I should go with the 500 cfm carb, where can I order one at a decent price? The local NAPA store charged me $279 for the #1406 carb which they stock. They do not stock the #1403 and want nearly $500 for it if they order it!

Dale


Haey Dale, sorry this has taken so long to answer for ya, been berry, berry busy. [:o)] In the quote you had where Mike was answering Jim, Mike said to use the 500, I firmly think he is correct. In fact, the formula for figuring CFM is right on, and a Stude V8 like yours will prefer a carb. that flows 450 but would be real happy with a 500 CFM too. NOW, that doesn't mean you can't slap that 600 CFM carb. on and dicker around with it until you're happy, because 95 tmes out of 100, a fella has to "dial in" any new carb., including the 500 CFM, to get the best results. The only thing is, with the 600 you'll have to get into it a bit more, changing jets and rods to dial it in, whereas the 500 will normally only require mixture and rpm screw adjustments.

SO, bottom line, can you use the 600? Yes. Would it probably be better to take that 600 back and put a 500 on it to begin with? Yes. Does that make it any clearer? Also, last 500 I bought at my Auto Zone, about a month ago,(and I prefer the hand choke style), sold for $239.00.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Sonny
08-29-2005, 09:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA

D'OH!!!!

Thanks for the additional info Sonny. I've only run the car for a few minutes since installing the new carb, so I doubt my dumb (ignorant, actually) stunt with the PCV hook-up did any harm. I got a hose connection today for the rear vacuum port to properly connect to the PCV, and a plug for the big port fitting in the front of the carb (which will now be unused). I was hoping I could just use the 1/4" plug that came with the carb, but the front fitting is pressed in... not threaded. Anyway, that should wrap it up.

Given my lack of time and skill for timing/ignition matters, my buddy down the street is going to square away the timing/dwell and install the Petronix ignition THEN tune the new carb for me. It might be a week or so before I reply about how that goes. I'll be out of town next week when he does it, but I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks again for everything.

'63 Daytona Convertible


You're very welcome Jim. I'm sure that what little you ran the car would not foul 'er up. Glad to hear that you're going through the ignition too, that's the right way to do it. Thanks a million for keeping us posted!

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Sonny
08-29-2005, 09:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA


quote:Originally posted by 60Lark

I am new to this forum, but have owned Studebakers for years. I have a 1960 Lark VIII with the 259 engine. I replaced my Carter WCFB with an Edelbrock a while back and I thought I had it correct, but after reading this discussion, I am now confused. One of the posted statements was to connect the vacuum advance to the full port vacuum port which is the small vacuum port on the driver's side, another posted statement was that the vacuum advance should be conected to the full vacuum port, which is the vacuum port on the passenger side, and then another posted statement was that, with the electric choke no vacuum ports are to be used and all should be sealed, if this is the case, where does the vacuum advance go? Please help clear up my confusion. I also would like to ask another question, when I replaced my carb. I was instructed to install the 1406 / 600 cfm unit, which is the carb I installed on my Lark, which from what I have been reading was bad information, will the excessive amount of cfm create a problem?

Confused,
60Lark Phil
Hey Phil. My stock 289 had a Carter AFB and the Edelbrock equivalent is the 500 cfm #1403 (I got the electric choke model). Several folks here referenced calculations that determined the right cfm, and I'd certainly take their word on it.

As far as the hose hook-ups go, my vacuum advance is connected to the small front passenger side fitting. The large fitting to the right of it is capped, as is the small front driver's side fitting. PCV is connected to the large rear port (I had to buy a fitting). That's it for mine and a very knowledgable friend of mine has checked it out and believes it to be correct.

I'm sure someone here will clear this up for you. Good luck.

'63 Daytona Convertible


This tickled the heck out'a me Jim. I LOVE it, this is what it's all about. You're right on as far as where the correct connections are. The thing that tickled me is that you got the information that you needed and passed it right on. It doesn't get better than that!

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Sonny
08-29-2005, 11:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by 60Lark

I am new to this forum, but have owned Studebakers for years. I have a 1960 Lark VIII with the 259 engine. I replaced my Carter WCFB with an Edelbrock a while back and I thought I had it correct, but after reading this discussion, I am now confused. One of the posted statements was to connect the vacuum advance to the full port vacuum port which is the small vacuum port on the driver's side, another posted statement was that the vacuum advance should be conected to the full vacuum port, which is the vacuum port on the passenger side, and then another posted statement was that, with the electric choke no vacuum ports are to be used and all should be sealed, if this is the case, where does the vacuum advance go? Please help clear up my confusion. I also would like to ask another question, when I replaced my carb. I was instructed to install the 1406 / 600 cfm unit, which is the carb I installed on my Lark, which from what I have been reading was bad information, will the excessive amount of cfm create a problem?

Confused,
60Lark Phil


Phil, sorry that you were confused, but I can damn sure understand why! Jim Palmer gave you the right information as far as where to connect the vacuum lines on your carb.

As far as the 500/600 CFM question, using the 600 CFM carb. will NOT hurt anything, just mebbe a slight loss of performance and fuel mileage if you decide not to try to dial it in. The 600 is a bit of over-kill, BUT, you can tune it in, it just takes a bit more work.

It is NOT as hard as it sounds, especially when working on the Edelbrock. You're trying to lean the mixtures out a bit, but not too much. All 4 jets and 2 primary step-up rods in the 600 are larger than the 500 to compensate for the higher air flow, so you want to reduce the fuel going into the carb. throats, but not so much that the car "bogs down" when you try to accelerate. If you get bogged down yourself with tuning in that 600, we can help ya out right here.

Take your time, and after you change components, when you drive the car, (and I would drive it for at least a couple of days or so after I changed things), carefully note the changes in performance from idle to wide open throttle. If you're getting better performance, it follows that the fuel mileage should increase too.

Please let us know how it goes.....


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

60Lark
08-29-2005, 11:51 PM
Thanks for the info, when I first put the 600 cfm on and tuned it in it ran great, far better than the WCFB. I drove it a copule hundred miles, with no problem, but this past week-end it was running crappy, didn't make any difference what I did. I already have converted to the Protonix breakerless ignition, I got tired of fuel pump diaphrams leaking and replaced with an electric fuel pump about 3 years ago. This evening after work, I installed a fuel pressure gauge just before the carb. and I believe I found my problem, with the engine cold I only had 3 psi fuel pressure and as the engine warmed up it drop to almost zero, I knew the gas tank was low so I took it and filled it up, but still had almost no fuel pressure, then I removed the fuel pressure regulator to see if that was the problem, but still no fuel pressure, so unless the new fuel pressure gage is messed up I need a new fuel pump AGAIN.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

Sonny
08-30-2005, 12:21 AM
quote:Originally posted by 60Lark

Thanks for the info, when I first put the 600 cfm on and tuned it in it ran great, far better than the WCFB. I drove it a copule hundred miles, with no problem, but this past week-end it was running crappy, didn't make any difference what I did. I already have converted to the Protonix breakerless ignition, I got tired of fuel pump diaphrams leaking and replaced with an electric fuel pump about 3 years ago. This evening after work, I installed a fuel pressure gauge just before the carb. and I believe I found my problem, with the engine cold I only had 3 psi fuel pressure and as the engine warmed up it drop to almost zero, I knew the gas tank was low so I took it and filled it up, but still had almost no fuel pressure, then I removed the fuel pressure regulator to see if that was the problem, but still no fuel pressure, so unless the new fuel pressure gage is messed up I need a new fuel pump AGAIN.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil


You're very welcome Phil! As for that electric fuel pump, I know exactly what you mean, I would trust the fuel pressure gauge. In fact, it's even kind of funny that you brought it up. I just had about the same problem on my big Furd, 1 ton truck. New 1406, new elec. fuel pump, new filter system under the truck, new lines, new tank switch-over valve, etc.. Anyway, that elec. pump chitt the bed about three weeks after I put the danged thing in! Good news is that it was in warranty, bad news is my truck ran bad, I had to troubleshoot my butt off to figure out what the problem was, (couldn't be that NEW pump right?), I had to get under the truck, change it and drive back and forth to the parts store to exchange it. One fuel pump, $85.00, the ball busting aggravation you have to go through even when you spend the big money for the best parts.... priceless...... [8] The $39.00 pumps I buy last forever!

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

60Lark
08-30-2005, 08:02 AM
Well, I am going to get one of the $40.00 electric fuel pumps and replace the entire fuel line just in case as well. I already have the money invested in the new 600 cfm carb. But I think I know someone that has a professionally rebuilt 500 cfm Edelbrock that I am going to see if I can get, if it works out then I will unload the 600, But before this fuel pump problem, I think I had it running pretty good, the Lark definately performed better than it did with the WCFB, it had a lot more get up and go. These nagging little problems are a pain but when the Lark is running good it is fun to tool around getting thumbs up from so many of the people that see her. I just got a new digetal camera, when I figure out how to get pictures onto this forum I will try to send some pictures.

Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil

blackhawk
09-01-2005, 02:24 AM
quote:Originally posted by Sonny


quote:Originally posted by blackhawk

Mike,

I have a new #1406 600 cfm Edelbrock that is still in the box. I bought it to put on the R1 engine in my '63 Hawk. This is an original setup; it has the AFB that came with the R1 engine from the factory. I am still agonizing over the 500 or 600 cfm question. Based on the displacement, the 500 cfm is plenty (I don't run it at high RPM). Is there enough difference in the R1 over the stock 289 that it warrants use of the 600 cfm carb over the 500 cfm one?

If I should go with the 500 cfm carb, where can I order one at a decent price? The local NAPA store charged me $279 for the #1406 carb which they stock. They do not stock the #1403 and want nearly $500 for it if they order it!

Dale


Haey Dale, sorry this has taken so long to answer for ya, been berry, berry busy. [:o)] In the quote you had where Mike was answering Jim, Mike said to use the 500, I firmly think he is correct. In fact, the formula for figuring CFM is right on, and a Stude V8 like yours will prefer a carb. that flows 450 but would be real happy with a 500 CFM too. NOW, that doesn't mean you can't slap that 600 CFM carb. on and dicker around with it until you're happy, because 95 tmes out of 100, a fella has to "dial in" any new carb., including the 500 CFM, to get the best results. The only thing is, with the 600 you'll have to get into it a bit more, changing jets and rods to dial it in, whereas the 500 will normally only require mixture and rpm screw adjustments.

SO, bottom line, can you use the 600? Yes. Would it probably be better to take that 600 back and put a 500 on it to begin with? Yes. Does that make it any clearer? Also, last 500 I bought at my Auto Zone, about a month ago,(and I prefer the hand choke style), sold for $239.00.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com


Thanks Sonny. I am going to return the 600 and buy a 500. We don't have an Auto Zone; not much choice in parts stores. I see where Summit Racing has the 1403 for 4279. Do you know of any other online sources for these carbs?

Dale

blackhawk
09-01-2005, 02:29 AM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA


quote:Originally posted by blackhawk

Mike,

I have a new #1406 600 cfm Edelbrock that is still in the box. I bought it to put on the R1 engine in my '63 Hawk. This is an original setup; it has the AFB that came with the R1 engine from the factory. I am still agonizing over the 500 or 600 cfm question. Based on the displacement, the 500 cfm is plenty (I don't run it at high RPM). Is there enough difference in the R1 over the stock 289 that it warrants use of the 600 cfm carb over the 500 cfm one?

If I should go with the 500 cfm carb, where can I order one at a decent price? The local NAPA store charged me $279 for the #1406 carb which they stock. They do not stock the #1403 and want nearly $500 for it if they order it!

DaleI can't answer your cfm question with any degree of confidence, but I can tell you that I got my Edelbrock #1403 at my local Advance Auto Parts store for $299. NAPA has disappointed me lately, so I always check with AAP first. Good Luck.

'63 Daytona Convertible


Thanks, but that chain does not have an outlet here. I am checking for sources online. Summit has one for $279.

Sonny
09-01-2005, 12:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by blackhawk


quote:Originally posted by Sonny


quote:Originally posted by blackhawk

Mike,

I have a new #1406 600 cfm Edelbrock that is still in the box. I bought it to put on the R1 engine in my '63 Hawk. This is an original setup; it has the AFB that came with the R1 engine from the factory. I am still agonizing over the 500 or 600 cfm question. Based on the displacement, the 500 cfm is plenty (I don't run it at high RPM). Is there enough difference in the R1 over the stock 289 that it warrants use of the 600 cfm carb over the 500 cfm one?

If I should go with the 500 cfm carb, where can I order one at a decent price? The local NAPA store charged me $279 for the #1406 carb which they stock. They do not stock the #1403 and want nearly $500 for it if they order it!

Dale


Haey Dale, sorry this has taken so long to answer for ya, been berry, berry busy. [:o)] In the quote you had where Mike was answering Jim, Mike said to use the 500, I firmly think he is correct. In fact, the formula for figuring CFM is right on, and a Stude V8 like yours will prefer a carb. that flows 450 but would be real happy with a 500 CFM too. NOW, that doesn't mean you can't slap that 600 CFM carb. on and dicker around with it until you're happy, because 95 tmes out of 100, a fella has to "dial in" any new carb., including the 500 CFM, to get the best results. The only thing is, with the 600 you'll have to get into it a bit more, changing jets and rods to dial it in, whereas the 500 will normally only require mixture and rpm screw adjustments.

SO, bottom line, can you use the 600? Yes. Would it probably be better to take that 600 back and put a 500 on it to begin with? Yes. Does that make it any clearer? Also, last 500 I bought at my Auto Zone, about a month ago,(and I prefer the hand choke style), sold for $239.00.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com


Thanks Sonny. I am going to return the 600 and buy a 500. We don't have an Auto Zone; not much choice in parts stores. I see where Summit Racing has the 1403 for 4279. Do you know of any other online sources for these carbs?

Dale


You're very welcome Dale. I'm pretty sure that all of the major parts houses have websites. I know Advaned Auto, Pep Boys, Auto Zone, etc., all have websites and I'd definitely check with them first.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com