PDA

View Full Version : Carter AFB on '63 R2



wagone
05-28-2005, 09:58 PM
Hey guys, I need some help. Please. I am almost set for some quality time behind the wheel of my '63 Avanti. I've got a problem, however, which is prevently some nice summer drives. I've rebuilt the original AFB--which it sadly needed. The overhaul went well and everything back together and the carb back on the engine. Only problem is that I have a fuel leak at the seal for the accelerator pump shaft. I tried using a 1/4" o-ring and this resulted in the fuel leak noted. So I bought the special o-ring seal from Ed Reynolds. Only trouble is that this seal must have been made for a later sealed carb on an emission-sealed type application. The reason I say this is that the O.D. of the brass piece that the o-ring is attached to is about .015 to .020" larger than the diameter in the top of the carb where this seal needs to be installed (at the location where the accelerator pump shaft passes through the top of carb). I don't know what Mr. Reynolds is (was) thinking of, but no way is this seal going to install on a 3507S AFB. So what have people done to get a seal at this location? Please help as I need advice. Thanks.
Wagone in Iowa

r1lark
05-29-2005, 03:48 PM
Hi Wagone,

Have you talked to Ed Reynolds? He may be able to shed some light on the problem, since he supplied the parts.

Paul

wagone
05-30-2005, 12:44 PM
This is wagone, again. I'm really bummed out. I hope someone reads this with some insight as to what my problem could be. I just finished adding a second o-ring to the accelerator pump shaft (stacked one o-ring on top of the other). I didn't do this to improve sealing with the shaft, but rather to take up the space between the bottom of the air horn cover and the factory brass washer which held the original seal in place. And guess what; damn thing still leaks fuel. I figured that with only an o-ring in this space between the cover and the factory washer that the o-ring can slide up and down a little on the shaft and hence not seal against the underside of the cover. Funny thing is that the seal which Ed Reynolds sold me does not have the o-ring tight inside that brass "washer" either--so what would keep it from leaking, in an emission-sealed application, through the o-ring, again, sliding up and down due to the tension of the o-ring on the pump shaft? Beats me! This seems like such a simple thing, but I'm really getting frustrated. Also: do the floats in an AFB tend to "ride" deep in the fuel in the bowl--that is not be real buoyant. The fuel level mark (caused by discoloration of the fuel on the brass float body) is about 9/16 of an inch below the gasket surface between the air horn cover and the main carb body. That is, most of the float is running submerged in fuel with the result that the level of the fuel in the bowl would appear usually to be about 9/16" below the gasket joint of the carb--is this normal? Thanks for the help, as I really need it.
Wagone in Iowa

Sonny
05-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Wagone, is this a R2 Avanti? It sounds to me like you answered your own question. By that I mean, No, the floats do not sit real low in the fuel bowl, (or shouldn't unless thess there's no fuel getting in). Sounds like the floats are bad, (have hole(s) or are porous), OR, just not set correctly. That allows fuel to fill too far up in the bowl and run out of the accelerator pump hole before the floats shut the fuel off. That would also explain why you can't "seal" the accelerator pump hole, there is fuel pressure in the bowl when the car is running. I don't remember ever seeing a stock, normally aspirated carb having a perfectly sealed pump hole, (Holley and a few aftermarket carbs added were not really stock), and the o-ring/washer is actually just a wiper setup.

Pop the floats out of there and shake them, they should never make any sounds when you do that. If you hear sloshing sounds, you have a pin hole in at lest one float and the bowl has to over-fill before they shut off the needle and seat. When you pop them out, thoroughly check out the needle and seat too.

Do you have a service manual for the Avanti? Even the standard Studebaker service manual would work for most of the mechanical stuff. You have to set float level, (and yours is way off), AND float drop, in the proper sequence, to get the floats adjusted correctly, (alignment in the chamber is critical too). Adjustments are a little different for the SC cars.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

wagone
05-30-2005, 09:57 PM
Sonny: Yes, as noted in my question this is an R2 Avanti. I have the factory shop manual and have just completely rebuilt the AFB with new needles and seats. Also replaced the jets and rods. I have set the float level to 3/8" and the float drop to 23/32" which is what the manual calls for. The float drop was WAY off when I opened the carb up--it was set at about 1 1/8" float drop. There is no sloshing sound from the floats, but they sit deep in a pan of water, which means in gasoline they would "ride" even deeper. Since floats are not available it appears as though I'll have to replace the carb with an Edelbrock, which I am very reluctant to do--especially as I don't really know what is wrong with what I have. The o-rings I have used should seal the carb against s'charger pressure (at least that was the intention) and hence a fuel leak shouldn't be possible. Also if the fuel level were high enough in the bowl to be forcing fuel out the accelerator pump opening one would think that the engine would be flooded and it didn't flood before I rebuilt the carb. As for after the rebuild I can't drive it enough to know for sure whether it is flooding as the fuel hazard is a little dangerous--but it hasn't acted flooded. The main reason for the carb rebuild is that occasionally the engine would be running fine and then act as though it was starved for fuel. And the reason I mentioned the float buoyancy is that I too was thinking that might be the reason for fuel coming out of the accelerator pump shaft opening. One last item of note is that someone on the last carb rebuild put a rubber washer on the accelerator pump shaft inside the carb and below the seal in the air horn cover--this may be significant or not but it did raise my eyebrows. This rubber washer is not in place now and does not appear in the shop manual. I'm fairly well confused.
Wagone in Iowa

Sonny
05-31-2005, 01:54 AM
Doggone it waygone, you even have me hitting the book! :D I must'a missed where you said it was a SC R2, but no problem, I don't think that there's that much difference in the SC and standard carbs, except for a little more sealing, richer jets and that dang seal you're working with.

I dunno, but it sounds like you have something else going on besides the seal on the pump shaft. That seal is supposed to work when there's pressure from the SC, not seal the pump shaft from spilling fuel, SC or standard carb. I know that you've probably gone through this a hundred times, but you do have all the parts in and in the right places, correct?

Yep, I'd look somewhere else, the check ball is the right size and seats correctly, the check needle is good and installed needle down, etc., even a danged crack somewhere, something is wrong somewhere else.

You've got me stumped on this one. 'Course, it's hell tryin' to help from here. If you didn't have this problem before the rebuild, I gotta say that you need to backtrack to find the problem. That and I'd see about finding a couple of new floats. Good luck and if you get it squared away, please let us know what it was.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

studegary
05-31-2005, 12:50 PM
Sonny, the thread topic is; "Carter AFB on '63 R2" <G>.

Mike
05-31-2005, 03:00 PM
There's some info about the R2 carbs at:
http://www.vs57.com/indextech.htm .
under "Carb Modification"; including the seal.
There's a picture of the Edelbrock marine seal, #1471, at:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/carb_acces.html .
How much gas comes out?
Mike M.

big jim
05-31-2005, 04:13 PM
wagone.... I had a similar problem.. the kit u used to rebuid the carb..does it have 2-piece needles? if so get a kit w/ 1-piece needlesthat was my problem.

big jim
05-31-2005, 04:19 PM
incidentaly.. that was the first 2-piece needle i had ever seen in my life came from somewhere in chicago. Installed by a Jaguar mechanic,maybe that explains it!

wagone
05-31-2005, 10:10 PM
An update, if you will, on my AFB (sealed--supposedly) problem. Specifically comments and answers to Mike and Big Jim. Mike: I'm afraid to drive the car far (for obvious reasons) and so when I think I may have the problem of fuel leakage corrected I drive around the block in first gear and not more than 1500 to 2000 RPM and then park back in my driveway and look under the hood. I'll then have accumulated about a 1/4" of fuel in the pocket of the intake manifold just in front of the accelerator pump "port" on the carb. It doesn't seem to leak at idle, but anything higher and it sure does. And there is evidence of fuel just around the top of carb right at the opening or "port" for the accelerator pump shaft--this is to say that this area of the air horn cover will be wet with fuel and then it runs down the front of carb and settles in the pocket of the manifold as noted. Thanks, Mike, for the reference to the Carter/Edelbrock source of parts--I may get their 1471 marine seal and see what it looks like and possibly the floats, too. Can't have too many new parts on an old car--as long as the check book continues to open, at least. Big Jim: I'm not sure what a two part needle would look like--the ones I have I would say are one piece as the only thing that the kit requires be attached to them are the wires to attach the needle to the float. If you mean that the flexible part of the needle is separate on the two part needle and it has to be attached, then no mine is not like that--I don't know what else might be separate and needing to be assembled than that little flexible sealing ring on the needle. Please respond back, especially if you mean that the wire needing to be hooked to the needle constitues a separate (second) piece. I'm still far from certain as to how buoyant the floats should be. I asked someone here today at home in my travels and his opinion was that floats tend to "ride" deep in the gas--which is to say that a large percentage of the float is beneath the level of the fuel--kind of like ICEBERGS, if you will--and this is the way mine "ride". A concern also has been raised as to whether the check ball in the accelerator pump circuit is in place in my carb and I have to say that I'M NOT SURE. You see, someone else in the past (before I owned the Avanti) apparently tried to remove the secondary jets and couldn't get them out and in the process badly damaged the screwdriver slots in the secondary jets. I wanted to get them out to put in new and so I used the smallest easy-out I have and they came out, but believe me I sweated a few little salty drops until the jets came loose. And after all these years the "plug" that holds the check ball in place was just as tight although the screwdriver slot had not been damaged. And so I elected to leave this check ball in place. Now I wonder if indeed it is really there. I must add, although I probably, shouldn't, that as recently as 1996 (according to the former owner's receipts) one of the main "professional" Avanti repair people (he advertises extensively) completely "rebuilt" this carb to the tune of $225. Hence I elected to leave the check ball in place, although everything else except the throttle shafts I removed. Anyway, guys, I'm still looking for help and comments. P. S.--The repair kit I used was from Ted Harbit, and it did not include a new check ball.
Wagone (or waygone--your choice) in Iowa

Sonny
06-01-2005, 12:25 AM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

Sonny, the thread topic is; "Carter AFB on '63 R2" <G>.


D'Oh! [:I] The senior moments are getting more frequent and with less time in between!!! Geez, what a dipstick..... I see that I called him "waygone" too. [:I] (Sorry about that wagone!) See what I mean? [:p][:o)] Thanks Gary.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Mike
06-01-2005, 06:01 AM
The pump shaft comes through the top of the carb well above where the level of gas in the carb should be.
It sounds like flooding. Could be excessive fuel pressure, dirt in the float valve, bad float, wrong float level setting.
Are the fuel pump and return line stock?
Did you set the float level and drop with the air horn gasket in place? I've heard people refer to two gaskets on R2's. I'm not sure if they mean between carb body and lid, or lid and supercharger adapter. Mine was professionally rebuilt by the previous owner, and appears to have just one.
Origonal R2 floats have a reinforcing stiffener inside, to keep them from collapsing. That must have made them heavier; yet, level and drop specs are the same as R1.
By the way, Summit lists the Edelbrock pumps, with the seals; if you want to try that.
Mike M.

wagone
06-01-2005, 09:29 AM
Note to Sonny and Mike.
Sonny: No apologies on the "waygone" are needed. When I started using the "wagone" moniker I realized that some might think of it as "waygone"--which could often be appropriate, just ask my wife. Actually the wag portion comes from the initials of my name, so it is "wag one". And the old English definition of a wag was a witty, joker type of person. But believe me "waygone" works almost as well (the first rule of life is "never take yourself too seriously").
Mike: I was almost ready to buy new Edelbrock floats; but after reading your recent reply I'm not so sure. You say the original R2 floats have an internal stiffener, huh. That means if I use Edelbrock floats I run the risk of having them prematurely collapse--not a pleasant thought! This problem seems to be getting more and more involved. The car has the original (I think) Avanti fuel return line. The fuel pump is a new R2 unit from Ed Reynolds (Stude Intl) which set me back $176--so I sure hope that it isn't putting out excessive pressure! I have new needles and seats--so I'm thinking there shouldn't be a problem there--but I might need to replace them, again, just to be safe. I have installed two gaskets on the air horn cover as two came in the kit and somewhere I thought I recalled a comment saying that two were needed to improve sealing against the s'charger pressure--but I'm not sure if that is right. And my float measurements are taken with both gaskets in place. So, I'm not sure what my next step Will be. Anyone out there in Stude land want to take a shot on giving advice. How about float collapse with a set of new Edelbrock floats? Also, something just entered my mind and managed to remain for more than a fleeting second: when I set the float level adjustment at 3/8" as per the shop manual my floats are not really level and I'm wondering whether that forces them to "ride' deeper in the fuel--but I'm reluctant to go away from factory specs and bend the arm so that the float is actually level when the needles are closed. Any thoughts on this out there? Has anyone tried drilling a small hole in the brass floats and them setting them out in the sun to let any fuel evaporate and then sealing this hole and the entire float body with some kind of sealant--there must be something on the market which one could dip the float in or "paint" on the float to seal any pin holes! Any thoughts here? New Edelbrock floats are the easiest solution IF they'll take the pressure. Maybe the "paint" idea adds too much weight? Help---getting desperate for some time behind the wheel (and more than just around the block)!!!!!
wagone (or waygone) in Iowa

Mike
06-01-2005, 11:29 AM
With the stock supercharger, the reinforced floats were probably overkill. Some people use floats made from a solid material, with high boost pressure.
Stan Gundry's book, which I recommend, covers checking and repairing the original floats. I like his procedure for finding a leak. With the float at room temp, hold it submerged in very hot tap water. You should see a stream of bubbles at any leak. He says the floats can be carefully soldered, with a small iron; and that you can punch a hole with a pin, to drain anything inside. Drive water or gas out, in the sun.
One book I have shows the top of the float approximately parallel to the gasket surface when setting the level.
I just looked at mine, again. I think I do have two gaskets between the top and main body.
Mike M.

wagone
06-01-2005, 02:43 PM
Mike: Thanks a bunch for your recommendations. I do have Gundry's book--I just need to remember to refer to it from time to time. I just got off the phone to Summit and they have Edelbrock floats for a cheap price of $13. I may try and check mine first for leaks via Stan's procedure and then go on from there. As for the accelerator pump seal, what I have now is basically what Stan has done--namely two o-rings. Mine however might be a little smaller in cross sectional diameter than what he was able to use as he talks about having them compressed inside the "void" underneath the air horn cover and I don't think the ones I used actually fit that tight. Hopefully one or both of these areas will solve my problem. I'll get back to the forum with my progress as it unfolds. Thanks again.
wagone/waygone in Iowa

big jim
06-01-2005, 04:30 PM
wagone... yes these2-piece needles had separatepointed ends that came apart and caused my gas puking problem leave it to me to get something wierd. good luck