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Rekabeduts
12-14-2004, 07:08 PM
How many quarts of oil should I put into a partial flow 289? I understand that about half a quart stays in, so I'm guessing 4 1/2 qts go in after I've drained all that's coming out.

thanks

DEEPNHOCK
12-15-2004, 07:37 PM
Just put in 5 quarts.
The partial flow oil filter is mostly cosmetic and just an visual feel-good item for owners desiring longer service intervals (in the fifties).
Skip all the additives, and just change the oil like clockwork.
Remember, it is harder on the engine if you don't run it often and to FULL temperature for a good hour...regularly.
The less you run the car, the sooner you should change the oil.
Oil is cheap. Crankshafts and bearings aren't cheap.
Jeff[8D]

DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

N8N
12-15-2004, 08:17 PM
well...

As usual, I'm going to be an argumentative cuss and disagree. IF (and this is, of course, a big if) your engine is in good shape and clean inside, the partial flow filter is a perfectly good filtering system. The only advantage to the full flow setup is that it provides a "safety net" should any big chunks of crap make their way through the pickup screen and oil pump. Theoretically, the partial flow setup can provide *better* filtration than the full flow, but I do not know if there are any cartridges available with media any finer than that used in the full flow jobs. I have my suspicions that the partial flow filters that you buy from the parts store use the exact same media as the full flow ones (20 microns or so.) Now if you could get an element rated for a smaller particulate size, say 8 microns give or take, that would be a valuable addition to any engine. Supposedly the "Frantz" type TP filters will do that, but there is just something about hanging a roll of TP in one's engine bay that seems somehow wrong to me. I sure wouldn't mind if someone came out with a depth-type replacement for a Fram C4 cartridge though, but that's neither here nor there - I don't think any have been made for years.

That said, the right answer to the question is "however much oil it takes to reach the 'full' mark on the dipstick after running the engine until the oil filter is full, shutting it down, and letting it sit for a minute or so." Not a very exact answer, to be sure, but the right one <G> Probably depends on what kind of filter we are talking about as well, the F4 type or the spin-on type... I imagine the F4 filter would hold a smidge more than the spin-on...

nate

MarkC
12-15-2004, 09:58 PM
Nate, while I'm with you on the theoreticals (that is, that a partial-flow system can provide better filtration of oil if finer media is available), I can't agree based on the realities that the flow through the partial-flow system in question is comparatively low, less than 30% of the full-flow system, and not all of the oil is positively subjected to the media. But then, full-flow systems can't be held in overly high regard either as they're no better than partial flow under high pressure conditions (especially cold starts) when the bypass valves are forced open, bypassing the media completely. Perfection in filtration is evasive, but I'd much rather have either than neither.

MarkC

MarkC, 64 Y8
Working in Spokane, WA

DEEPNHOCK
12-16-2004, 08:51 AM
Just to be double argumentative (huh?)....

How can a partial flow filter get 30%?
It is going to be supplied with whatever goes up that passageway to the head. Any big chunks are going to flow with the fast branch and it would be hard for them to 'find' that particular passageway.
While I wil admit that any filtering is better than no filtering, but how much filtering is going to be done on a passageway that has as it's last fitting a .080" orofice?
I know the answer... Not very much.
Just like a lawnmower....change the oil at regular intervals and don't rely on the filter to do much more than make you feel like a good consumer.
Jeff[8D]





[quote]Originally posted by N8N

well...
As usual, I'm going to be an argumentative cuss and disagree.
<snip>

DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Rekabeduts
12-19-2004, 11:36 AM
I'm on my last FRAM PB50 partial flow oil filter. Any one know where to get those? All Stude Int has any more is some Purolator that are very rusty from sitting in water somewhere.

Also, I'm using Rotella 15W-40 (in south Florida) rather than the 20W50 I used last. Anyone have an opinion on which is best for a never re-built 289? (15W-40 or 20W-50?)

Transtar60
12-19-2004, 11:58 AM
Tractor Supply CO or NAPA will have PB50 or PB50 equivalents.
Used on many pieces of industrial equipment and farm equipment.
http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/results.asp?PartNo=PB50&Submit=Search

N8N
12-19-2004, 05:09 PM
Look at the interchange sheet on my web site there are numbers for several mfgrs. I know that Wix, Hastings, and Fram are all still available, and I think Purolator as well - you might have to special order them though if your store doesn't have them in stock.

http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

good luck

nate

--
62 Daytona hartop
64 Daytona convertible (in boxes)
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Roscomacaw
12-19-2004, 05:27 PM
How illogical is it to consider filtering the oil on the suction side of the pump?
I know that there's been a way worked out to turn an early Stude V8 into a full flo, but it involves some goofy plumbing and drilling and tapping the block to some degree.[xx(]
I've wondered tho, if one couldn't modify an oil pan to where a spin-on filter would mount to the side of the pan sump. The pickup tube/head would go to the spin-on filter and a braided flex line would end with a flare fitting that would be attached to the rear main cap's oil passage.
You could get away with a little filter cartridge like new cars use. This would minimalize the problem of interfering with engine room clutter.
If it's low enough on the sump, it'd be full of oil for startup - so what's to prevent doing this?[?]

Miscreant at large.

Mike
12-20-2004, 06:19 AM
It's temping to install a filter on the inlet of the oil pump, because the plumbing would be simple. But, supposedly, it's a very bad idea to restrict the inlet of the pump in any way. There's some good information on Gene Berg's VW site about full flow systems. He says even the inlet screen can be a problem.
The bypass system, on Studes, isn't such a bad idea. The return, on a stock setup, provides extra oil to the timing gears, fuel pump, and maybe the crankshaft thrust bearing. There are a few places to pick up oil under pressure; and lines can be small diameter.
Mike

DEEPNHOCK
12-23-2004, 08:18 PM
If it has an OE fiber cam gear, I'd run the 15W-40.
No sense stressing good parts that are comfortable.
Oh, and CLEAN THE RELIEF VALVE!
This should be an annual thing on all Stude V8's.
The AC filter number is a P-3.
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Rekabeduts

I'm on my last FRAM PB50 partial flow oil filter. Any one know where to get those? All Stude Int has any more is some Purolator that are very rusty from sitting in water somewhere.

Also, I'm using Rotella 15W-40 (in south Florida) rather than the 20W50 I used last. Anyone have an opinion on which is best for a never re-built 289? (15W-40 or 20W-50?)


DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Rekabeduts
12-24-2004, 10:25 AM
The oil needs to be changed anyway, and the car hasn't been started in almost 3 months due to not dealing with that starter issues until now. Should I change the oil before trying to start the car again, or get it started, let it run some, then change it. The oil is really not dirty at all, maybe 1500 miles since the last change, but it's been almost a year now.

Hank

Sonny
12-24-2004, 11:15 AM
Get it started Hank. You always want to change oil when the engine is warm.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

DEEPNHOCK
12-24-2004, 04:51 PM
I remember in the good ol' days when the standard procedure was to take the oul pump screen and fill the pickup with gas and light it to burn the sludge off the screen.

Jeez, the stuff we used to do <lol>...

I have a 289 in my shop that I modified years ago to filter ALL the oil that went up into the heads and lubed the rocker shafts with filtered oil. All the oil that ran back down into the block was filtered. Pretty easy to do, although the plumbing looked wierd. I put shut off valves and pressure gauges to check what was going on.
Shimmed the bypass valve... Used to shut off the rocker shafts at the drag strip (keep all the oil downstairs, where it was needed).
Never hurt the engine, even though I blew an oil filter off once, before I figured out that the valves only needed to be opened a little bit (What a mess <gg>). Not as good as a full flow, but a lot better than the OE setup.
Jeff[8D]





quote:Originally posted by Mike

It's temping to install a filter on the inlet of the oil pump, because the plumbing would be simple. But, supposedly, it's a very bad idea to restrict the inlet of the pump in any way. There's some good information on Gene Berg's VW site about full flow systems. He says even the inlet screen can be a problem.
The bypass system, on Studes, isn't such a bad idea. The return, on a stock setup, provides extra oil to the timing gears, fuel pump, and maybe the crankshaft thrust bearing. There are a few places to pick up oil under pressure; and lines can be small diameter.
Mike





DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Rekabeduts
01-09-2005, 12:26 AM
What is the best way to get to and clean the oil relief valve on a GT Hawk? I'll be changing my partial flow 289'd oil soon, and I'm really not sure of the last time the relief valve was cleaned, although I think it was about 2 or 3 years ago. My oil pressure starts out at about 75, then drops to 55-60 when warmed up, and about 45 when idling. I don't really know if the oil pressure is any indication of how dirty or clogged it may be. I have had the oil changed about every 1,500 miles, which is about once a year, and am going to do my own oil changes now.

Thanks.

Roscomacaw
01-09-2005, 05:23 PM
Rek,

The way you describe your oil pressure, I seriously doubt there's need to clean that relief valve. It's a bit of a pain to do and with your oil change schedule, I don't think you have to worry about it getting gummed up.;)

Miscreant at large.

Sonny
01-09-2005, 06:09 PM
I'm with Bob on this one Hank. Sounds like you have perfect oil pressure. If you use a good quality, detergent oil, (I use the best, diesel motor oil), and change it as regularly as you do, you're fine.

If you MUST clean the relief valve, it is that big nut on the timing cover, low down on the passenger side of the engine. It has very small parts, a sliding valve, spring and orifice, behind that nut. The problem is, the parts are normally a PITA to get out of there once you get the nut off. They’re usually held in there by the oil and normal, (almost always a minimal amount), sludge buildup that lays in the cavity. It can be a hell of a messy job. If you have a shop manual, the process is described in it, in detail.

Note, what ever you use to clean out the relief valve cavity goes right into the oil pan. That means that you don't want to use anything real "caustic" to the bearings, like carb cleaner or brake cleaner, unless you thoroughly flush it with fresh motor oil, make sure you drain that stuff completely out and put new oil in before you start the car.


Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Rekabeduts
01-09-2005, 07:26 PM
Thanks for the advice. I'll forego the relief valve for now. As the oil, I plan to use Shell Rotella 15W-40. I used 20W-40 last time, but I think it's thicker than necessary and seems a little sluggish when cold (in S. FLA that means 55 degrees F.)

BTW, I have a friend with a 53 Coupe, that has a full flow 289 out of a 64, and it started knocking. He thought the worst...but it turned out that the spring in the relief valve was not correct, or not set correctly, causing the oil pressure to drop too low. Just working the spring cured the problem. We have a former Stude dealer mechanic in our SDC chapter, who has been a huge help to diagniosing problems. He helped me with my starter, which turned out to be a ground wire problem (my starter was fine).

Hank

Sonny
01-09-2005, 08:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by Rekabeduts

......... I plan to use Shell Rotella 15W-40.

Hank



Don't get much better 'n 'at! [^]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Thunderbucket
01-12-2005, 12:58 AM
On the subject of lubrication; The damage done to a motor from inadequate lubrication, is for the most part easily avoidable.
Most of the heat and friction damage done to a motor will be in the first few minutes on startup.
The best of the best is an Electric auxilary oil pump, these pumps prime the system before starting and can be pressure regulated, they also get the oil to where it is most needed, at the critical start up
time.
If you want an engine to outlast any other,,,then consider installing one.
I only use a single grade oil,,30wt or 40wt in my Motors, I change my filter every second oil change,,and my oil is crystal clean.
I have never had a failure due to lack of oil, or oil pressure.
"Things to ponder when your rebuilding your prize posession"


" I shoved my foot down on the gas pedal, and there i was *Gone*"

Rekabeduts
01-12-2005, 08:23 PM
My Hawk, with it's mechanical fuel pump, usually takes 4 or 5 attempts at cranking before it starts, if its been a few days. The oil pressure needle usually kicks up during each attempt, so in a round about way, I think I'm getting some lubrication before it starts.

Hank ;)

DEEPNHOCK
01-13-2005, 08:14 AM
In the HD truck world, there is a gizmo that bolts onto the backside of a 40mt (Delco solenoid mount) starter. It is a small gearoter pump. When the key is turned on it activates te motor, but not the solenoud that engages the starter drive gear (Bendix). This prelubes the oil system. Never have seen one scaled down for passenger cars...yet.

There is another system out there called 'Accusump'. It is a quart sized hydraulic 'accumulator' that gets charged with engine oil from an operating engine and a solenoid closes it off and saves the pressurized quart of oil. When you turn the key to crank, the solenoid opens and a quart of pressurized oil is injected into the oil gassages. Not very expensive. In most speed shop catalogs.
Jeff[8D]






quote:Originally posted by Thunderbucket

On the subject of lubrication; The damage done to a motor from inadequate lubrication, is for the most part easily avoidable.
Most of the heat and friction damage done to a motor will be in the first few minutes on startup.
The best of the best is an Electric auxilary oil pump, these pumps prime the system before starting and can be pressure regulated, they also get the oil to where it is most needed, at the critical start up
time.
If you want an engine to outlast any other,,,then consider installing one.
I only use a single grade oil,,30wt or 40wt in my Motors, I change my filter every second oil change,,and my oil is crystal clean.
I have never had a failure due to lack of oil, or oil pressure.
"Things to ponder when your rebuilding your prize posession"


" I shoved my foot down on the gas pedal, and there i was *Gone*"


DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

DEEPNHOCK
01-14-2005, 02:35 PM
You learn something new every day...
Calvin Lowell (Oldcarfart@aol.com) is an Amsoil distributor, and he pointed me out to the AMS-oiler, a pre-oiler......
Just what we were talking about...
More info here, and it is available at a Stude friendly price from good ol' Calvin!
http://intershop.amsoil.com/cgi-bin/Amsoil.storefront/41e81b0401284d9a271ed1f0e3f0066d/Catalog/1495

Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]





quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

In the HD truck world, there is a gizmo that bolts onto the backside of a 40mt (Delco solenoid mount) starter. It is a small gearoter pump. When the key is turned on it activates te motor, but not the solenoud that engages the starter drive gear (Bendix). This prelubes the oil system. Never have seen one scaled down for passenger cars...yet.

There is another system out there called 'Accusump'. It is a quart sized hydraulic 'accumulator' that gets charged with engine oil from an operating engine and a solenoid closes it off and saves the pressurized quart of oil. When you turn the key to crank, the solenoid opens and a quart of pressurized oil is injected into the oil gassages. Not very expensive. In most speed shop catalogs.
Jeff[8D]






quote:Originally posted by Thunderbucket

On the subject of lubrication; The damage done to a motor from inadequate lubrication, is for the most part easily avoidable.
Most of the heat and friction damage done to a motor will be in the first few minutes on startup.
The best of the best is an Electric auxilary oil pump, these pumps prime the system before starting and can be pressure regulated, they also get the oil to where it is most needed, at the critical start up
time.
If you want an engine to outlast any other,,,then consider installing one.
I only use a single grade oil,,30wt or 40wt in my Motors, I change my filter every second oil change,,and my oil is crystal clean.
I have never had a failure due to lack of oil, or oil pressure.
"Things to ponder when your rebuilding your prize posession"


" I shoved my foot down on the gas pedal, and there i was *Gone*"


DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock


DEEPNHOCK@worldnet.att.net
'61 Hawk
'37 Coupe Express
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Thunderbucket
01-17-2005, 06:37 PM
Here's one available From "Canton Racing Product's"
http://www.accusump.com/acc_products/acc_kits.html

" I shoved my foot down on the gas pedal, and there i was *Gone*"