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dan0
12-12-2004, 08:56 PM
...volts on my starter circuit? I'm cranking too fast. I had to scour around for a starter recently and don't wish to fry this one too. What is it in the starter that limits it's volt carrying capacity? Windings in the field coils??[?]
I want to slow it down some. I have long since converted to 12 volts. Is there any way to build in resistance in the cable that goes from the sol to the starter? Or maybe, a 12V solenoid that accepts 12V on one side, and delivers 6 Volts on the opposite?[:p]
someone must have figured it out...
dan0

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

Sonny
12-12-2004, 09:37 PM
Hmmm... It's probably just as easy to slap a 12 volt starter in it. I know that the starter can be rebuilt for 12 volts, but as far as a resistor, it would have to be Large to handle the amps. I'd be interested in the answer to this one too! [:0]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Roscomacaw
12-13-2004, 10:23 AM
Sonny, the trouble with slapping a 12volt unit in there is the difference in tooth count of the gears involved. The 6volt era cars and trucks had a different number of teeth on the bendix gear and the flywheel/torque convertor gear.
Frankly Dano, I'd just stick with what you've got. That starter can go for YEARS on 12 volts. I've done it with Studes (including my current 53 coupe) and I've got an 8N Ford tractor that I've had for 15 years now. In spite of converting it to 12 volts when I bought it, I've never had to change anything but the starter solenoid. And I only changed that because I wanted the ignition bypass provision that the 12volt solenoids allow. The old 6volt starter just spins pleasingly faster now.[^]

Miscreant at large.

Sonny
12-13-2004, 11:39 AM
Oh yeah, I knew it would take some effort to configure. It amounts to a starter drive change. I'm almost positive that the starter drives, (Bendix), interchange between 6 and 12 volt starters. I'm gonna check that out when I get a chance.

But bottom line, I'm with you, I'd just go with what I have already. I've had the same luck, no real problem with using the 6 volt starter, unless the engine is hard starting and you try to grind away on it.

In fact, unless a fella needs to have a fancy 12 volt radio, I think the very best deal is using an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. [^]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Roscomacaw
12-13-2004, 01:08 PM
I could be wrong - it happened once before (first marriage [xx(]) - but I don't think you can change starter drives. [|)]

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dan0
12-13-2004, 04:27 PM
Well she fires right up right now, but starting seems like a strain and I dunno, seems like I should find a way to step it dn. I had a good starter on it previously and it did NOT go for years...and I'm on the third in 4 yrs now. Granted my last had a broken armature shaft...This is why I feel the need to step it dn. Is there a way to use a 12V armature with a 6V drive?
dan0

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

Sam Roberts
12-13-2004, 04:49 PM
Sonny, I am having really good starts with a 6 volt everything in my '55 coupe. I had the starter rebuilt using the 4 pole GM system for 6 volt straight 8s, use a commercial grade battery, 6 volt by the way, rebuilt the generator, and a new ( 9 1/2 years ago ) voltage regulator. Six volt systems worked well for a lot of years, and still will if kept up to snuff. Downside is that you cannot have a 400 megawatt stereo system blasting out that good old rap music! :D


quote:Originally posted by Sonny

Oh yeah, I knew it would take some effort to configure. It amounts to a starter drive change. I'm almost positive that the starter drives, (Bendix), interchange between 6 and 12 volt starters. I'm gonna check that out when I get a chance.

But bottom line, I'm with you, I'd just go with what I have already. I've had the same luck, no real problem with using the 6 volt starter, unless the engine is hard starting and you try to grind away on it.

In fact, unless a fella needs to have a fancy 12 volt radio, I think the very best deal is using an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. [^]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com


Sam Roberts

Roscomacaw
12-13-2004, 05:46 PM
I have to throw in with Sam here. 6 volt WAS the rule for many decades. They didn't get away from it because one day the light bulb came on (pardon the pun) and they said - "WOW! TWELVE VOLTS will fix everything!" (Fact is, the 12 volt starters spin faster BECAUSE they're internally, much the same as 6volt starters!)[:0]
But the truth was/is that it was a matter of cost that led the charge (damned puns again!) to 12 volts. By raising the voltage of the system, they lowered the amps. And it's AMPS that dictate wire gage (diameter). Lesser diameter = lesser costs. Lesser costs = equals bigger profit margins. It's a bean-counter's no brainer!
It's not like the radio manufacturers had a glut of 12 volt radio chassis they were hopin' Detroit would build cars for. Same way for bulbs and the like. The move to higher volts meant lesser amps involved and that meant money in the bank.[8D]
I'd be willing to bet that the innards of a 12 volt starter aren't much different from those of a 6volt. Probably the engineers figured there wasn't much need to change them because more oomph was needed anyway as the industry went to higher compression ratios that dictated more zing![}:)]
That all said, a good, clean, properly-sized (talking cables here) 6volt system should serve well and long. It's not inferior in any way.
I just helped a local guy with his 55 President. It wasn't cranking well on it's 6volt system. I advised him to do several starts, cold. Starting the engine, shutting it back off and then starting it again - maybe 5 or 6 repetitions.[:0]
Then I told him to get out and feel the cables and attachment points of them. He should be looking for warm or hot spots. He did so and found a faulty cable that way. Replaced the cable and the President now starts right up, warm or cold.;)

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Sonny
12-13-2004, 11:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by Sam Roberts

Sonny, I am having really good starts with a 6 volt everything in my '55 coupe. I had the starter rebuilt using the 4 pole GM system for 6 volt straight 8s, use a commercial grade battery, 6 volt by the way, rebuilt the generator, and a new ( 9 1/2 years ago ) voltage regulator. Six volt systems worked well for a lot of years, and still will if kept up to snuff. Downside is that you cannot have a 400 megawatt stereo system blasting out that good old rap music! :D

Sam Roberts


Yep, I've had a number of 6 volt cars that started and ran real good too Sam, some are just as good as any 12 volt system. But, I've had a number of 6 volt cars that weren't any good at starting at all. I don't think there's anything more frustrating than listening to a 6 volt car just grinding away, trying to start, (and it seems like they just don't grind too long before the battery gives out either).

Dropping an 8 volt battery in turns the engine almost as fast as the 12 volt, is added insurance, the lights are brighter, and if it's a good 8 volt, a fella can hardly tell the difference in looks between an 8 and 6 volt battery.

I did notice that you mentioned that you had the GM 4 pole upgrade done, that helps! [^]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Roscomacaw
12-14-2004, 11:05 AM
Well Sonny - ask yourself this. Why were 8volt batteries to be had in the first place? If they'd been such a panacea for 6volt woes, why didn't the car makers just stick 8volt batteries in as a matter of course? It's because when their cars and trucks left the production lines, they started and performed to spec..
Hell - there used to be 6-12 batteries available too. These used to go thru most of their functions as 2 6volts in paralell. But for starting purposes they were configured, using a relay, into a series arrangement that afforded 12 volts to spin the starter. Again, not a factory offering by any maker that I know of.
In reality, those and 8volts were a "band-aid" to mask over the fact that the starter was worn or the cable ends weren't clean and tight or myriad other possibilities that would inhibit the full flo of amps a starter motor requests.
I worked in that resto shop for 4 or 5 years. We did restos, not cusstoms or rods. I remember we put 8volts in a couple of oldies but it wasn't the norm in most cases. Most times a fresh, tight motor could be made to fire and run on the 6volt system it had come with. But then - usually all the associated cables and such had been renewed as well as the starter. The degradation that would lead one to resort to upping the voltage is a result of lack of maintenace over time. 90% of the time it's inappropriately sized battery or ground cables OR dirty connection points for those cable's ends. I'm betting there's alot more starter rebuilds than are necessary. You know: "Geez - I gotta new battery! Must be the starter."[xx(]
I'm not saying an 8volt is bad. I'm just pointing out that it just circumvents whatever problems there are as opposed to addressing them. As an aside, 8volts will enhance the lights on a 6volt system. But so can installing a H/L relay. This takes out the resistance of the HL switch contacts and the dimmer switch contacts as well. Works pretty good actualy.[:0]
I'd not had a 6volt system in my life for years when I got this old tractor of ours some 15 years ago. Used to be agonizing to press the starter button and listen to it groan as it labored to turn the engine. If it was a damp day (most are here in the "winter" months), the ignition would resist behaving and I'd often wear the battery down trying to tease the thing to start. On a dry day tho - no problem.[8)]
When the generator wanted an overhaul, I decided to switch to 12 volts. Partly because I had about a half dozen auto alternators lying around and partly because I wanted to buy a spray rig that operated at 12 volts and I didn't want to have to carry a 12 volt battery around just to run the pump motor![V]
I went to the tractor supply place to see what a 12volt starter cost. The guy at the counter asked: "What's wrong with the starter that's on your tractor?" I answered that it was old and it was 6volt. He stated that the 6volt starter would perform just fine at 12 volts and by golly - 15 years later that starter still hasn't laid down on me!:D
I will defend a 6volt system to the end - on it's own merit. If you're gonna honestly RESTORE a vehicle, then it ought to be like it came off the assy line. But for practical purposes nowdays - things like A/C, modern sound systems and even the dwindling availabilty of 6 volt bulbs and such - going to 12 makes sense. And you get a kick-ass starter in the deal to boot! ;)

Miscreant at large.

Sam Roberts
12-14-2004, 01:57 PM
Did I mention that I only rebuilt that starter to 4 pole 1 1/2 years ago? :) And we put the motor back in in 1996 after Ted Harbit bebuilt it for me. Point is, that commercial 6 volt battery, using a new voltage regulator, started quite well cold, and only showed resistance when the motor was hot. I rebuilt the generator not long after the starter by the way, in 2003. I concur with the big guy that properly maantained starting systems, and no matter the voltage, will not need tweaks, and wizardry to be reliable. Now if I could find a remedy for the fuel draining down out of that backdraft carburetor, I'd not have to crank that 259 for 20-30 seconds to start it after it has set a month! :D

That is only an opinion, your mileage may vary........;)



Sam Roberts

dan0
12-15-2004, 05:54 PM
Step down converter. I asked an aircraft electrician and this is what he suggested...so now on to the auto parts stores. ;)
dan0

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

Roscomacaw
12-15-2004, 06:10 PM
Well danO, I think you're making too much ado about nothing. But it is your vehicle. I'd like to know what a "step-down convertor" that can handle cranking amps is gonna look like and cost.
In my 31 years of Studebakering, I've yet to hear someone take the apporach you're taking. Not saying it's wrong, but either they just use the 6volt stuff as it is or they go to the trouble of changing starters and ring gear.
Maybe - as Sonny itimates - the bendix gears can be swapped. Somewhere, in the back of my aging head, I seem to recall that that can't be done. Of course, I'm ready to stand corrected. If I wasn't so busy, I'd get out some of the new bendix drives I have here and try fitting 12 to 6 and vise versa.[|)]

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gordr
12-19-2004, 03:22 AM
I'm with Mr. Biggs on this one. If you can find a voltage convertor with enough capacity to run a starter motor, it'll probably take a wheelbarrow full of greenbacks to buy it.

A six volt starter can pull over 400 amps at times. That means the starter is using 2400 watts of power. If you use a voltage-dropping resistor, it will have to dissipate 2400 watts of power. And the problem with voltage-dropping resistors is that they have to be sized for the load, and a starter motor is a large, and variable load.

The only power-limiting scheme for the starter that I can see working, is to use some kind of solid-state switching network to control the duty cycle of the power going to the starter. This is the sort of thing that is used as the speed control on electric cars, or on a variable-speed electric drill, for that matter. I doubt there is a ready-made module that could do the job. Maybe you could have one built, if your pockets are deep enough.

I'd say, forget the whole idea. Run the six-volt starter on 12 volts, and it will last for years. The only caveat I'd offer is don't crank for extended periods. If the engine won't start in 30 seconds, give it a long rest. You can burn out a starter with overly long stints of cranking with the rated voltage, you know. Starters are intermittent-duty devices by their vary nature. Their normal operation is to be run briefly at what would constitute a severe overload for continuous operation. So you run your 6-volt starter on 12 volts, you are running it in slightly more severe overload mode, but for less time, as usually the engine will start faster when cranked faster.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

dan0
12-19-2004, 07:53 AM
I read where one has to swap the ring gear to use a 12V starter..guys I like a good challenge, ;) this may not work out but hey it's fun researching ain't it? She fires right off. I know that steppin down volts on a starter circuit would be a chore.
appreciate the comments ya'll oh , and... Merry X-mas!!:)

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

Peter in London
12-19-2004, 05:21 PM
My tuppence worth here. My Speedster has always started instantly in the cold, so long as there is petrol in the carb. I used to pour a very little in the top before cranking after a longish rest period but now just turn on the supplementary electric pump for a few moments - also when in traffic jams in very hot weather. (It has slightly complicated wiring because no 6v. pumps were available here with pos. ground.) It was HOT starting that was the problem and that is now solved too. We installed a huge 6v. battery in the trunk (from a London bus that uses 4 of them in series for 24v.) and wired it in parallel. It keeps cool in the trunk and rarely needs topping up and provides all the amps one could ever need. Now I never have problems starting with 6v. Not authentic, of course..... The rest of the car is, but they weren't designed for modern, London traffic and it hates creeping along at walking speed for ages in the summer.
I do have to remember not to leave the electric pump turned on when not driving or I then return after a few days to find both batteries drained flat.

dan0
12-19-2004, 10:07 PM
Hello Pete!
Cool to hear from our English buds![8D]

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

buddymander
12-25-2004, 09:09 PM
You can run two six volt batteries in series, thereby reducing for the starter, and still have the twelve for stereo and a/c, or drill down into a twelve at the halfway point and pick up your six volts there, by adding a third post.

JeffDeWitt
12-27-2004, 10:26 PM
Dan,

Those heavy duty motors really don't care what the voltage is, they are going to pull the about the same amount of power no matter what the voltage is. I've got a 6 volt starter in my 12 volt 60 Champ (it's got a 56 engine). It starts well, and once I got a good set of brushes in it has been trouble free.

I know from experence if you want the change to a 12 volt starter in a V8 Stude you have to change the ring gear, not a small task. Also a 6 volt starter in a 12 volt vehicle spins a bit faster than normall and gives easier starting.

A while back I changed my clutch and could have easially converted to a 12 volt starter but elected to leave the 6 volt one. If it ain't broke there is no need to fix it, and if your Stude is anything like mine there is always something else that needs attention and you would be better off putting your time, effort and money into.

Jeff DeWitt

sumf
01-14-2005, 12:25 AM
quote:Originally posted by Sonny

Oh yeah, I knew it would take some effort to configure. It amounts to a starter drive change. I'm almost positive that the starter drives, (Bendix), interchange between 6 and 12 volt starters. I'm gonna check that out when I get a chance.

But bottom line, I'm with you, I'd just go with what I have already. I've had the same luck, no real problem with using the 6 volt starter, unless the engine is hard starting and you try to grind away on it.

In fact, unless a fella needs to have a fancy 12 volt radio, I think the very best deal is using an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. [^]

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com


I have always liked the idea of a 8/6 volt system, but:

1 can you jump start it as safely as a regular system?
2 how long do the blubs last??
thanks,
sumf

Sonny
01-14-2005, 12:38 PM
No problem jumping it with 12 volts smurf. The 6 volt bulbs seem to last just as long. In fact, it must be about the same as 6 volts, because I never noticed any difference.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Roscomacaw
01-14-2005, 10:08 PM
If you look at most really old bulb boxes, they list the bulbs as being 6 to 8 volt rated. Like anything else, if you pump more volts thru a given item, it's not gonna last as long. But 8 volts on a 6volt bulb - you're gonna get good service out of them. Now TWELVE volts thru a 6volt bulb - figure a life in minutes at best![xx(]

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