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62Daytona
11-07-2004, 11:42 PM
I have just completed a engine rebuild on my 1960 Lark 8 wagon 259/3-speed w/OD. I had the flywheel surfaced and I had the clutch disk relined and I replaced the throw out bearing. I folowed the shopmanuals instructions on all of the repairs. After I installed the engine I pushed the cluch pedal and it went all the way to the floor with no resistance! All of the linkage is connected. I tried adjusting the pedal free play and it had no effect. I have been working on the clutch problem for 3 weeks and It still does not work! I am at my wits end here. Does anyone know what I am doing wrong?

Mike.

Transtar60
11-08-2004, 12:13 AM
Did you check out the "ears" on the clutch operating shaft that the operating rod from the pedal attaches to?

These were originally fine splined and can slip thus letting the pedal go to the floor with out resistance but appear good to go visually.

Remove the operating shaft and put it in a vise and see if the ears do turn. Mark them before removing so you can get a tack weld to keep it in place before putting it back in.

Also check all the tapered pins etc to make sure they havent sheared off.

62Daytona
11-08-2004, 02:07 AM
When I discovered that the clutch was not working I pulled the motor out and inspected the clutch linkage. I held the throw out bearing in place with my hands and told my dad to push the clutch pedal down. When he did it did not slip any where that I could tell and it pushed the bearing forward like it is supposed to even with pressure against it. When I was tightening the pressure plate to flywheel bolts I noticed the 3 fingers move in towards the clutch disk (the clutch disk is installed properly). They moved in about 1/2 inch. Could this be the problem?

Roscomacaw
11-08-2004, 01:35 PM
Those fingers are supposed to move like that. It's because as you tighten the pressure plate, the face of it presses upon the clutch plate and thereby compresses the springs. There'd be a problem if the fingers DIDN'T move when you tightened it up!
Go back underneath, have someone step on the clutch and make damned sure that that collar with the two pins thru it isn't just rotating without actualy moving the shaft that operates the throw-out bearing. As Transtar says, those pins can be sheared and still look good at a glance.;)

Miscreant at large.

62Daytona
11-12-2004, 09:51 PM
I have not had a chance to check the collar with the pins in it yet. I have been helping my dad work on one of his F**d trucks.:( I will try to get a good look at the collar Sunday. I had looked at it in the past but I did not try to remove the pins. The clutch had never given me any problems untill I removed the engine. I will keep you all posted on what I find.

Mike.

62Daytona
11-14-2004, 09:55 PM
Well I reinstalled the engine today after I checked all of the linkage and the collar with the pins. I found nothing wrong anywhere. It still does not work!!! If I can not get it fixed then I am going to cut my loses and sell the damn thing. I don't want to sell it but I don't know of anybody that works on Studebakers that can help me. Do you guys know of any body that can take a look at the car and tell me what I am doing wrong or somone who could help me work on the car?

Sonny
11-14-2004, 11:22 PM
Something like this can really piss a guy off Mike, I know, because I've BTDT, but I wouldn't sell it partner. Ok, where are you located? It doesn't sound like you're in a local Stude chapter, so about the only thing one of us can do is see who's closest to you and get them to come over to help you out.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Mike
11-15-2004, 05:39 AM
Is it possible that the clutch disc, with the fiber linings on it, is installed with the wrong side toward the fly wheel? The center sticks out further on one side. If it's installed backwards, it is held against the fly wheel all the time and won't release.
Mike

62Daytona
11-15-2004, 11:59 AM
I am located in Los Banos, California. It is 8 miles off of I-5 (interstate 5). I am in the local chapter of the SDC but I am the youngest member that actually works on Studebakers. I am 19 and most of the men in club are in their late 60s and early 70s and they no longer work on their cars. Also I installed the clutch disk just like the shop manual says to.

Roscomacaw
11-15-2004, 05:18 PM
Usually the disk has it stated on one side "Flywheel side" Not always though. Certainly that would be a problem. Also, regarding you holding the throw-out bearing while your dad worked the clutch - I doubt that would give you indication whether or not those "fingers" that push the T-O bearing have slipped. They're swedged to that shaft they're attached to and even if they DID slip at one point, they wouldn't slip back to where they belong when you let up on the pedal. They'd just be set at where they slipped to when the swedging let loose but will STILL feel pretty tight. And while they'd still function when your dad pushed the pedal, I doubt whatever pressure you could apply with your two hands would reveal that they'd slipped.:(
There's no great mystery here. It boils down to one of two things. You've either got a part in the mix that's incorrect or some one part's defective and you just can't see it.[8D]
These are pretty simple cars. Pretty darned basic compared to today's stuff. But that simplicity doesn't make up for having something broken or mis-engineered by the mechanic at hand.
If you give up, you've lost. If you hang tough and figure it out, you're on your way to being the next generation Stude expert. Learning the HARD way is the lesson that sticks with you best! ;)

Miscreant at large.

Sonny
11-16-2004, 12:45 AM
quote:Originally posted by 62Daytona

I am located in Los Banos, California. It is 8 miles off of I-5 (interstate 5).

Who do we have around Los Banos Bob? I don't have a damn SDC roster, mebbe Gary can jump in here for us......

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

studegary
11-16-2004, 03:27 PM
Sonny - I would be willing to do it if I thought that it would be beneficial. I don't see any point in going through the listing of more than 1000 SDC members in the state of California to find members in his location since he already belongs to the local SDC Chapter and has local contacts.

Sonny
11-16-2004, 05:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

Sonny - I would be willing to do it if I thought that it would be beneficial. I don't see any point in going through the listing of more than 1000 SDC members in the state of California to find members in his location since he already belongs to the local SDC Chapter and has local contacts.


Oh, I was thinking that they may have been listed by geographical area too. What would be nice is a spreadsheet type list on the computer. If it's just a printed roster, it would be a real butt-kicker to find someone. Hopefully someone in his local club can help him find someone.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

62Daytona
11-17-2004, 12:26 AM
The only guy in my local chapter that possibly could help me has not worked on a Studebaker in 25+ years. He lives well over 100 miles from me and the one time he did come over he just critized every thing I did on my engine rebuild even tho I folowed all of the shop manuals instructions on the repairs. The only other guy that I know of that Works on Studes lives even farther from me than the first guy. I called him and explained the clutch problem. He told me that it would not be worth his trouble to even look at the car. So I have not had much luck at all on this car.

GTtim
11-17-2004, 06:21 PM
Mike,
Sorry to hear that you are having so much trouble. I'm no expert on this issue myself, my car has an automatic. I have, however, heard several times in the discussion forums of people having this same problem. Most of the time the bedeviling problem seems to be in the external shaft. It seems to me that somewhere on one of the shafts something has slipped, leaving the fingers too far from the release bearing to do their job. Stick with it, you'll figure it out. Experience is the mother of all knowledge, but she's an awful mean teacher sometimes.
Tim K.

Mike
11-17-2004, 06:29 PM
Mike,
I hope you don't give up on this.
Do you understand what I said about the two sides of the clutch disc? If you had your old one relined, it probably didn't come back with a sticker, to indicate the flywheel side. The center, on that side is flat, and recessed from the linings. The pressure plate side has a raised center.
Your manual probably says "long end of the hub away from the flywheel". At least that's how the Avanti manual puts it.
If the disc is turned over, the raised center, ("long end of the hub"), bottoms out against the flywheel. And, the pressure plate compresses a lot more than it should, as you tighten the bolts.
If you installed it in the car that way, I would expect a lot of pedal free play. If you adjusted that out, the clutch still wouldn't release.
Can someone tell me if a '60 Lark has pedals like a Hawk or an Avanti? Are they through the floor or suspended?
(another), Mike

Sonny
11-17-2004, 06:52 PM
'60 Lark pedals are through the floor.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Roscomacaw
11-17-2004, 10:36 PM
I was sorting thru some stuff in the garage today. Came across a couple of clutch discs in the process. They both had "Flywheel Side" stamped into the centers of them. I have handled some that weren't so stamped. You just need to understand that the raised center section that has the damper springs in it has to face AWAY from the flywheel.[|)]

Miscreant at large.

62Daytona
11-18-2004, 03:01 AM
My Clutch disk also has flywheel side stamped on it. I installed it with the raised part faceing the pressure plate. When I tightened the pressure plate to the flywheel the 3 fingers move in to where they almost touch the raised part of the clutch disk. Before I removed the engine the clutch was working fine. It had never given me any problems.

dpson
11-18-2004, 08:50 PM
Are you sure that when you had the clutch disc refaced that the correct thickness facings were used? It almost sounds like the facings are too thick causing the presure plate release fingers to move too far toward the disc and there is no room left to release the pressure plate. I had this happen on an older model Studeabaker when I rebuilt the clutch several years ago, ended up getting a different clutch disc and it cured the problem.

1960 Lark Convertible
1962 GT Hawk

62Daytona
11-19-2004, 02:10 AM
That could very well be the problem or at least a part of the problem. The clutch was working fine before I pulled the engine so I don't think that it is a likage problem. I had the clutch relined because the rivets were touching the flywheel. It looks like the engine has to come out again.:( I will keep you all posted on what I find.

Mike.

dpson
11-19-2004, 05:26 PM
The 59-64 Chassis Parts Catalog indicates that the clutch disc for your car, a 1960 259 V-8, is part #1543131. I happen to have a couple of those discs in my inventory so I measured the thickness of the disc, outer face to outer face. One disc, which is Studebaker NOS, measured on average around 0.315 in. in thickness. The other disc, which is a Maramont aftermarket disc, measured 0.365 in. Compare this to your disc and see how it checks out. If it is much thicker then that may be the problem. If it is not let us know.

1960 Lark Convertible
1962 GT Hawk

62Daytona
11-20-2004, 09:33 PM
Well I pulled the engine today. This is the third time I have pulled this engine out. The clutch disk from outer face to outer face is 3/8 inch thick. It is a 10" disk.

Tom B
11-22-2004, 07:04 PM
quote:Originally posted by 62Daytona

Well I pulled the engine today. This is the third time I have pulled this engine out. The clutch disk from outer face to outer face is 3/8 inch thick. It is a 10" disk.
3/8 is so close to .365 that you can't tell the difference without a mic. Shouldn't be the problem.

Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI

dpson
11-22-2004, 07:24 PM
So lets recap; the flywheel face was machined, the clutch disc was refaced; what about the pressure plate, was it replaced or refaced? If replaced are you sure it is the correct one and if resurfaced was it reassembled correctly? When you place the clutch disc against the flywheel does it lie flat, with no interference at the hub? Did you replace the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft(now is the time to do it if you didn't), if so was it pushed all the way in? Did you tighten the bolts that attach the pressue plate to the flywheel evenly, a little bit of a time each? The pressure plate fingers are what release the cltuch disc and when you tighten down the presure plate they need to stick up enough so the they are contacted by the throwout bearing. Does this look like it will happen? Finally, when you measured the thickness of the clutch disc at 3/8, did you do it by eyeball versus a ruler or by micrometer or calipers?

1960 Lark Convertible
1962 GT Hawk

62Daytona
11-23-2004, 12:34 PM
I used a tape measure to check the thickness of the clutch disk. I don't have a micrometer. I did not do anything to the pressure plate. The owner of the shop that surfaced my flywheel told me that he could not surface the pressure plate. The hub of the disk has not been interfering with the disk lieing flat against the flywheel. I did not replace the pilot bearing because my dad told me that they hardly ever go out. I tightened the pressure plate bolts a little at a time like the shop manual says to. I don't think that the fingers stick up enough to be contacted by the throwout bearing.

dpson
11-23-2004, 06:06 PM
Given that the pressue plate hasn't been touched and was working fine before, it can be ruled out as the problem. Resurfacing the flywheel should not change the clutch/pressure plate relationship and so long as the clutch hub still clears the crankshaft, which you said was okay, that isn't the problem. Which brings it back to what is causing the pressure plate release fingers to go too far toward the clutch disc when you tighten the presure plate to the flywheel? It appears to me that clutch disc is too thick and is taking up all the release room and forcing the fingers too far toward the hub. Picture this, when the throw-out bearing contacts the fingers it presses them toward the hub and by lever action this pulls the pressue plate away from the clutch disc allowing it (and the transmission) to spin freely and no longer be conected to the flywheel (engine). It appears the only way to test this out is try another clutch disc. If you want to try locally ask for a Cardo CD3800 (from a 1981 Cardo catalog)or equivalent. This clutch disc was also used in AMC V-8 cars from 1965-69 with 287 or 290's, and also in some jeep vehilces, but I can't find a specfic model listing. Let me know if you have trouble location one.

1960 Lark Convertible
1962 GT Hawk