PDA

View Full Version : Oil cooler on a 1960 289 V8



messerschmittfan
02-28-2007, 04:08 PM
Is it possible to put an engine oil cooler on a 1960 289 V8? I am finishing up the installation of a complete Supercharger setup (off of a 57 Golden Hawk) and while hooking up the oil filter unit on the back of the air box was thinking that with the extra power I might have to cool the oil. Since this engine is not the full flow block I am not sure if this is possible and if it is where can I hook up the oil lines. If it was full flow I could use an adapter under the spin on oil filter. Now if I could get the body work to go as smooth as the engine and the other mechanical work I will be driving the Hawk on the autobahn this summer. Thanks for any input Harry

Roscomacaw
02-28-2007, 04:43 PM
If there WAS a full-flo access tap on these earlier engines, there'd be ALOT more of them that would sport full-flo filters. But that's why there's only PARTIAL-FLO filters on them.

There ARE ways you can drill and tap into an early variant and install clunky pipe & fittings to direct the oil thru a filter before it goes into the engine's arteries - but you have to do this from the start - with a bare block. And of course, still, it's clunky by my standards.[xx(]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

N8N
02-28-2007, 06:37 PM
FWIW, not that it helps the original poster, but instead of using a "sandwich" adapter and running into issues with oil filter to downpipe clearance, Jon Myer sells an aluminum block that bolts in place of the full flow spin on filter mount that provides AN fittings so you can run a remote filter and also an external oil cooler.

I would highly recommend either using an oil-to-water cooler or else putting a thermostatic valve in line with an oil-to-air cooler (unless your application is a race-only engine that is only ever going to be run at WOT.) There's no need to cool the oil below 200 degrees or so, and there's good reasons not to. Volkswagen used an oil-to-water sandwich cooler as standard on many models and not only does it lower the oil temps, it actually helps the engine warm up faster in cold weather.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

DEEPNHOCK
02-28-2007, 07:14 PM
Don't waste your time.
Put it together right,make sure the brakes work, jam a 3.07 gear in it, and drive the snot out of it.
It can handle anything the Autobahn can offer;)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by messerschmittfan

Is it possible to put an engine oil cooler on a 1960 289 V8? I am finishing up the installation of a complete Supercharger setup (off of a 57 Golden Hawk) and while hooking up the oil filter unit on the back of the air box was thinking that with the extra power I might have to cool the oil. Since this engine is not the full flow block I am not sure if this is possible and if it is where can I hook up the oil lines. If it was full flow I could use an adapter under the spin on oil filter. Now if I could get the body work to go as smooth as the engine and the other mechanical work I will be driving the Hawk on the autobahn this summer. Thanks for any input Harry


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

bams50
02-28-2007, 08:22 PM
Way OT, but I was noticing the OP's name b/c I too get a kick out of those freaky little Messers!

Don't think I'll ever buy one- got enough on my plate learning all about Studes! ;)

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

Roscomacaw
02-28-2007, 08:25 PM
Well, Jeff's spot on. It AIN'T some dainty european trinketry. And note also that the factory didn't bother to cool the auto transes unless they were slated for HEAVY DUTY operation and at that I think it was more hype than necessity.[:0]
When you think about it, the V8s served in cars AND trucks for 11 years before Stude decided to go full-flo and I'd bet it was only an attempt to match competitor's engines than something they viewed as a fix!;)

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

N8N
02-28-2007, 08:42 PM
I dunno, if I were going to drive it on the autobahn, I'd probably add some extra cooling. That is only because I know myself; I'd have my foot pasted to the floor for as long as I could get away with it.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Roscomacaw
02-28-2007, 08:44 PM
Weld some lengths of tubing to the bottom of the oil pan.:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

N8N
02-28-2007, 08:48 PM
I don't know if you're serious or not; I've seen deep auto trans pans sold with tubes welded through them for just that reason. I think Derale makes them?

Personally, I think a nice finned aluminum oil pan would be a nice touch. Unfortunately nobody has seen fit to make one for a Stude yet :( If anyone needs someone to test fit one though, I'm your man - I've already got just about every other shiny engine goodie.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Roscomacaw
02-28-2007, 08:51 PM
NO, I was semi-serious. I've read where someone did that. As to your ribbed aluminum, that would be pretty - but for pure function the tubes or even flat vanes would help dissipate heat![}:)]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

DEEPNHOCK
03-01-2007, 06:57 AM
Nate...Nate...Nate....
I have a polished aluminum oil pan and a polished aluminum trans pan on the Yellow POS, and you will never go down there to wipe it off and shine it up.... (Only an anal-retentive person would do that[:0])..
Oh...wait... Never mind;)
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by N8N
Personally, I think a nice finned aluminum oil pan would be a nice touch. Unfortunately nobody has seen fit to make one for a Stude yet :( If anyone needs someone to test fit one though, I'm your man - I've already got just about every other shiny engine goodie.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Chucks Stude
03-01-2007, 11:55 AM
This is something that I have wondered about for years. The oil pan on a partial flow filtered engine, and a full flow engine are the same. With about one quart of oil in the filter, would not the full flow engine be OK with 6 quarts of oil in them? I used to do this, and did not have a prob. But something would have to be different, like the dipsticks. Maybe I am overanalyzing, in thinking that at rest, a partial flow filter being upside down, would drain back into the engine.

N8N
03-01-2007, 12:47 PM
I'm not sure about the spin-on ones, but the Fram F4 canister type filters would not drain down with the engine off because the lower fitting actually opened up into the tube that goes up through the middle of the filter, and the hole in that tube is about 3/4 of the way up the tube. So there's really only a small amount of oil that will drain out of the canister with the engine off. To fully change the oil in an engine with one of those filters, you need a suction gun to empty the oil filter housing. Some of the similar filters I've seen had a petcock on the bottom to make this exercise easy, but for some reason the Studebaker ones don't have one. I ASSume that the spin ons also have an anti-drainback valve, but haven't cut one apart to confirm.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Roscomacaw
03-01-2007, 12:49 PM
No, the spin-on partial flo setups DO drain out after the engine's stopped. In fact, you can often hear as they drain out their last - it sounds like when you suck the last of a drink out of a glass with a straw![:I]
Stude HAD both 5 and 6Qt oil pans. But as to the spin-on filter (the one's I use anyway - Fram PH25 or equivalent), they can hold maybe something less than half a quart. There's a larger filter that works too but looking at it, it doesn't look like it has the capacity to hold a whole quart.:)

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

stuvw2mny
03-01-2007, 01:40 PM
Has this thread has gotten a little out of hand with personal opinions? I think the original question was valid, and that "we" are assuming the car (a hawk?) will be driven flat out on the Autobahn. Part of this reply is based on that assumption.

If a Stude V8 is to be run flat out for a number of miles the real issue is not oil cooling . It is drain-back of oil from the engine heads. It was recognized 40 years ago that the drain-back hole from the valve covers was inadequate, leading to excessive oil accumulating inside the valve covers under sustained high speed operation. From personal experience on a 51 Commander the excess oil will be sucked into the intake valves and burned, shortly leading to engine oil shortage. One factory solution in 1962 was to decrease the size of the oil supply passage in the rocker shaft. So, limiting oil to the rocker shafts is a first step for sustained high speed operation. A second step, which has limited success, is to enlarge the drain-back hole.

So, for any sustained high speed Stude V8 operation first accomplish the 2 steps above. Then put an extra tie-down or latch on the hood. Next - drive it! - while keeping an eye on the oil pressure guage. Stop and add oil if the guage needle begins to fluctuate. Next - start thinking about slowing down from high speeds and the aerodynamic problems, such as lifting of the front end (and hood)at high speeds.

Back to oil cooling, yes, early blocks could be modified to allow full flow remote filters and coolers. See Due Cento newsletters for printed how-to instructions. Inelegant? Maybe so. Would it be more elegant to provide oil pickups from each valve cover to a separate oil pump that could then be routed to a cooler and filter and then to a 10 gallon oil tank in the trunk, from which oil could be supplied back to the oil pan via a float valve that is compensated for the possible g-forces of acceleration. Or, how about taking the on-top bypass oil filter off, relocating it in front of the radiator, routing oil from it from there thru an elaborate finned oil cooler in front of the radiator, then through an ice-filled cool can, and finally back to the oil pan? The objections to this scheme will be "but you're not cooling all the oil" or "it won't look factory stock." How about modifying a Studebaker air conditioner to cool engine oil? Oh well, maybe Rube Goldberg has other ideas.

I bet it will much cheaper, better, and safer to buy a used 5+liter Mercedes car that is engineered from start to run on the Autobahn.

Chucks Stude
03-01-2007, 02:00 PM
That is why I began using 6 qts in mine is that at sustained high speed drives, thru West Texas at 90-100mph, the oil pressure gauge would begin to fluctuate. Adding the extra qt helped that situation. I wasn't trying to interject personal opinion, if I were to stick personal opinion in this, it would be in the other section.

messerschmittfan
03-01-2007, 05:21 PM
First thanks for all the options for my question for adding a oil cooler to my 1960 Hawk. On the buying a new Mercedes I have been selling off a collection of old Mercedes that I have collected over the past thirty years or so. As far as I am concerned they made their last good cars back in the 50’s, my family car from 1972 to the late 80’s was a 1941 170 Open Touring car – we did have a modern 240 while we were in Colorado – and when I returned after being offered my current job here with the Army I had a 88 W126 350 with all the bells and whistles – I still drove the Open Touring car whenever I could and I still have it with a few other old Mercs. My main vehicle now is a 1994 Ford Explored that just turn 334,000 miles. As far as driving down the Autobahn full bore that is not my goal, it is to be able to cruise while not being run over, the recommended speed on the Autobahn is 130kmp (about 85 mph) but if you try to do that you are treated as a criminal by the other drivers as they are running over 100 mph. I purchased a 427 Shelby Cobra with the savings from my second tour in RVN in 1968 and had it build for driving here – the family car was a GT 500 then – and I could burn up the Autobahn with that. As for my handle I have been driving Messerschmitts since a teenager – first one was 1957 – and I own a 1955 KR 200 US Export and a 1958 Tg 500 (Tiger four wheeler).
To get back on subject from what I am reading here it would not do any good to add a cooler between the input and out put lines going from my block to the oil filter. Right or wrong? I have already modified the upper galley with epoxy to reduce the oil gathering there and have increased the hole for the return as outlined in the modifying your Studebaker book. I am currently replacing the valve stem seals and I am looking at adding a windage tray to the oil pan to keep the oil where it belongs. I am making these modifications in the belief that if they work for an engine being driven hard here they will work on an engine being driven normal in Arizona when I return home in the next year. I am pass the stage in my life of wanting to race every thing on the road but I sure like high speed cruising. Thanks Harry

N8N
03-01-2007, 05:42 PM
Harry,

I'm pretty sure that the flow is so slow to the partial flow filter that trying to cool the oil that way will be a wasted effort. What you may want to do, since you say you are adding a windage tray, is have a bung brazed or welded into the oil pan for an oil temperature sending unit, that way you can have a gauge in the car and see whether or not you are really causing any harm to the engine by winding it out. Personally I wouldn't worry at all if the oil generally runs at 230-240F or less (I guess that's about 110-115C?) any decent oil should be able to hold up fine at those temps. Maybe run a synthetic just for extra insurance.

If you find the oil temps shooting up after prolonged high speed driving, then worry. Likewise, keep an eye on the oil pressure gauge to make sure the heads aren't filling up. If you haven't already, change the oil pressure gauge hose at the back of the pass. side head. It's bad enough when they blow at low speed, but at 90 MPH you might not have a chance to shut it down before damage occurs.

good luck,

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

PackardV8
03-01-2007, 10:24 PM
No reason an oil cooler couldn't be plumbed in before the partial flow filter. You could come out of the cooler with the stock restrictor line to feed it to the filter.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

Roscomacaw
03-02-2007, 01:59 PM
For that matter, if it's a cartridge-type filter, braze some fins on the cannister. If it's a spin-on filter, contrive a finned cover that clamps tightly to the filter body!
Really, Arizona or not (and there's some very active Stude folks in Arizona!), I don't think it's necessary.[^]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

messerschmittfan
03-02-2007, 05:04 PM
Thanks - that is the information I was looking for. Outside of improving the oil flow internally and getting it back into the pan I was looking to see if adding an oil cooler made sense or not. I have the spin on filter that is mounted behind the air box for the carburetor. A hose feeds the filter and the oil is returned to the block by another hose, that is why I was thinking about taping into it at that location. Since the oil in the hose is under pressure the extra length should not matter. My interest was if anyone had done it and if it was needed.

Since this vehicle sat in a warehouse for over 20 years providing a home to countless of generations of squirrels and mice I am changing all of the lines, oil, brake, water you name it, it is being changed. I just wish I were the one who found it instead of the German I traded with. He glued all the chrome on with hot windshield seal (black) when he “restored it”. I will not go into detail on all the body “improvements” he made either as they have been removed. Thank goodness he was a mechanical idiot and left the mechanics alone.

Since I do all the work on my cars myself to include the painting I will weld in a fitting for the oil temperature gauge. I have aluminum valve covers and I was thinking of making fittings from the rear of each cover to the oil pan which would also get the oil out of the upper engine area – I am looking at some quick removal fittings that are used on race cars for the oil lines so when I remove the covers there is not a big mess. When I was on home leave last August I saw a gold and white Hawk in Tucson but he made the red light and I did not or I would have tried to have a talk with him. Thanks Again for the information Harry
:D

stuvw2mny
03-04-2007, 12:05 AM
Hello Harry, Sure was glad to get your additional information of your intended use of the hawk and find out you were not intending to drive the length of the autobahn flat out. The suggestion of the temp sender in the oil pan was terrific. I sure would be interested in your results of that scheme and hope you can post them. It would be also be great to get data from someone who has actually done oil temperature testing on a Stude V8.

If you have temperature problems in Arizona, it will be more likely from the situation where you get stuck behind a slow Arizona driver on long upgrades. The issue then will be not enough airflow through the Hawk radiator. The "fixes" I would concentrate upon in that case would be a lower temperature thermostat (many Arizona cars have lower temperature thermostats than those in other areas), a better-than-stock engine fan, and possibly a second electrical fan on the radiator. Getting feedback on this from Arizona residents would be helpful. Another important factor to remember is sometimes engine overheating comes from a too lean fuel mixture. Far better to be one step too rich than one step too lean, especially when supercharged.

As an opinion, I really don't think you'll encounter much trouble overheating from high speed running in Arizona because you soon won't do too much of it. It is too costly. The state police are sneaky and mean. They love their radar! Arizona government loves the fines.

BTW, do you have overdrive or automatic trans? If the latter cool the tranny fluid!

My opinions may be worth what you paid for them. I hope to hear facts from your work or from others. Drive fast and prosper!

JDP
03-04-2007, 02:32 AM
Phil Harris had a kit for adding a full flow filter to a early V8 at York. You have to have a bare block to modify, and it runs the lines off of the back of the block, tapping into the oil gallery from the pump..

64 Commander 2 dr.
64 Daytona HT
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black)
63 Avanti R1
63 Daytona convert
63 Lark 2 door
63 Lark 2 door #2
62 Daytona HT/ 4 speed
62 Lark 2 door
60 Lark HT
60 Hawk
59 3E truck
52 Starliner
51 Commander

N8N
03-04-2007, 07:35 AM
Yup, looks like a modification of the method in the old DD books but neater and fewer fittings (i.e. less places to potentially leak...)

I personally would not bother unless I already had the engine out for other work; at an absolute minimum you need access to the back of the block and also have the oil pump off, and clearance for the hoses involves grinding a hole in a thin part of the casting opposite the starter. Definitely not a quick project, and since drilling and tapping in the oil passages are involved probably best left for a rebuild where the block is going to be hot tanked.

I like the way Phil did it, looks like he used Aeroquip right angle fittings that are the new ones where you push on the fabric covered hose without clamps; however, since the hoses are routed through a hole in the block casting I'd probably feel more comfortable with the stainless braided hose and I neglected to ask if there was enough clearance between the block and the flywheel for the AN type fittings. If you do it exactly the way he did it, I would definitely spend the time to smooth that new hole in the block so that the hoses aren't abrading, and probably replace them each time the flywheel was off for whatever reason.

I thought someone had posted a pic of the setup, but I can't seem to find a linky... :/

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Karl
03-05-2007, 12:50 AM
I have a Oil temp sender in the Twins oil pan. Oil temp runs about 30 dedgees above the water temp. 180 water = about 210 to 215 water. at about 90 mph. but I have modifyid the pan to hold two more quarts of oil.[:p]To answer your question on the cooler. Yes you could. But do you need it at 85 MPH no.:)

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

N8N
03-05-2007, 09:51 AM
Karl,

you forgot to add "...or so I've heard."

:)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel