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kpcoupe
02-25-2007, 03:37 PM
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE VALVE CLEARANCE SHOULD BE FOR 57 SILVER HAWK V8?

Roscomacaw
02-25-2007, 03:41 PM
I set mine at .026 cold.:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

StudeRich
02-25-2007, 08:09 PM
The Stude. Shop manual prefers the "HOT" and running method and the setting is .024", BUT...you need a cutaway valve cover to keep all the oil in, and although I am a glutton for punishment and do it, most people do not believe that it is any more accurate than the cold method which is as Mr. Biggs said, .026" for both intake and exhaust.

To set valves Cold:
You put a test light hot lead on the + batt. term. and connect the alligator clip end to the dist. term. that goes to the coil with the ign. switch on. Then be sure you turn the engine to #1 by putting the line very close to the letter "I" for IGN on the vibration dampener on the pointer on the timing gear cover, then check for BOTH rocker arms being loose (valves closed) if not, you only need one more revolution of the crankshaft and start over. Keep in mind that the Dist. turns COUNTERCLOCKWISE and set the valves starting with #1 (left front) and following the firing order marked on intake manifold (18436572) Cyl. numbering is Left (driver side)1,3,5,7 Right 2,4,6,8 You carefully "bump" the Solenoid start Term. with a remote starter switch or a jumper wire to the Batt. cable to light the test light for each cyl.


quote:Originally posted by kpcoupe

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE VALVE CLEARANCE SHOULD BE FOR '57 SILVER HAWK V8?

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Dick Steinkamp
02-25-2007, 08:56 PM
Here's MY method (Rich has seen it since I ran it in our chapter newsletter)...

I’ve never liked to set my Studebaker valve lash “hot” (with the engine running) which is the preferred method. It makes for a very messy engine compartment…oil everywhere. And with my fumble fingers, is bound to result in some burns to my hands or worse (lots of things to avoid in a running Studebaker engine!)

The Studebaker manual instructs you to set the valve lash “cold” (engine cold and not running) by getting #1 to top dead center (referencing the timing marks on the crankshaft damper); setting both intake and exhaust valves on #1; hooking up a light to the distributor side of the coil; rolling the engine over (with the ignition “on”) until the light lights; setting both valves on the next cylinder in the firing sequence (#8); and continuing this process until all valves on all 8 cylinders are set.

The problem with this method is that it doesn’t insure that the valve lifter is on the heel of its cam lobe. I’ve used this method before and it generally results in the exhaust valves being set too loose.

I’ve found the perfect solution for setting the valves “cold”. It insures the valve lifter of the valve being set is on the heel of the cam lobe, which produces THE most accurate adjustment. I will have to admit, however, that I have borrowed the process from the (gasp!) Chevrolet manual. Fortunately, small block Chevrolet V8’s have the same firing order as our Studebakers and Chevrolet used solid lifters in their performance engines in the 1960’s.

Here’s how I do it. I remove all the spark plugs to make turning over the engine by hand easier. I then follow the chart below:

Adjust this Valve - With This Valve Fully Open
1 intake - 6 intake
3 exhaust - 2 exhaust
8 intake - 5 intake
6 exhaust - 1 exhaust
4 intake - 7 intake
5 exhaust - 8 exhaust
3 intake - 2 intake
7 exhaust - 4 exhaust
6 intake - 1 intake
2 exhaust - 3 exhaust
5 intake - 8 intake
1 exhaust - 6 exhaust
7 intake - 4 intake
8 exhaust - 5 exhaust
2 intake - 3 intake
4 exhaust - 7 exhaust

John Kirchhoff
02-25-2007, 09:29 PM
I've found adjusting the valves while the engine is running tends to tear up feeler gauges as well.

S2DSteve
02-25-2007, 10:08 PM
Uh Guys, it's not necessary (or even desireable) to have the engine running to set the valves hot (which is the only way to get accurate clearance). Just get the engine up to temperature and shut off. It should stay hot long enough to get at least one bank adjusted.

Dick, I think your procedure might be a good idea, but I'm trouble interpreting the instructions. Could you elaborate for us slow learners?
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/S2DSteve/Convert071.jpg

Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1937 Dictator Streetrod
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
1953 Commander Convertible
1954 Champion Coupe

Dick Steinkamp
02-25-2007, 10:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by S2DSteve

Dick, I think your procedure might be a good idea, but I'm trouble interpreting the instructions. Could you elaborate for us slow learners?



Yea...the table didn't translate too well.

Adjust the #1 cylinder intake valve when the #6 intake valve is fully open.

Adjust the #3 exhaust valve when the #2 exhaust valve is fully open.

etc.

If you rotate the engine clockwise (facing the front of the crank), the valves that come to a fully open position (and hence the valves to adjust) are right in sequence.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

jngregory
02-25-2007, 11:15 PM
I'm adjusting the valve clearances on a newly-rebuilt 289 right now. I'm still new at this game, so please forgive me if I'm asking dumb questions. I have read the Shop Manual, and although I understand the concept, I'm a little unsure of the specifics.

I'd really appreciate if StudeRich, or Dick, or anyone else who knows what they are doing can help out with some advice.

On the cold adjustment method, if I understand this correctly I turn the engine over until the pointer is on the I on the ING on the vibration dampener, I check that the push rods for #1 cylinder are loose (intake and exhaust valves closed), then set the gap on both rockers at .026.

First question, I have a different vibration dampener, with one mark on the dampener, and 0 to 24 (degrees I believe) marked on a scaled pointer fixed to the timing cover. Where should I put the mark - on 0 degrees?

When I finish with #1, I think I have to find top dead centre on the next cylinder in the firing sequence, #8 cylinder.

Second question, where exactly do I hook up my test light? StudeRich says one clip to the positive side of the battery, and the other to the distributor terminal that goes to the coil - you mean the wire that comes out of the middle of the distributor to the middle of the coil? (I probably should know this, but I don't)

Assuming I got the light hooked up correctly, I have to turn over the engine, just enough to get to top dead centre of #8. Then the light comes on - right?

How do you turn over the engine? I don't have enough room between the radiator to get my socket onto the crankshaft bolt. I sure don't want to have to remove the radiator (that I just installed). If I remove the spark plugs, will I be able to turn it over just by bare hands on the vibration dampener? (Again I should know this, but I don't)

StudeRich seems to say he's using the starter - are you quickly engaging the starter motor? or are you turning it over by hand?

If you use the starter motor, what if you go too far?

For Dick's method, how do you know that the valve is fully open?

Again, I'd really appreciate some help.



John
1953 Commander Coupe
1954 Champion Sedan

Dick Steinkamp
02-25-2007, 11:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by jngregory

For Dick's method, how do you know that the valve is fully open?



You'll have both valve covers off and you watch the valve in question while you turn the engine over by hand (it will be fairly easy to do with the spark plugs out). When the rocker has depressed the valve as far as it will go, you stop. If by chance you go a little too far and the valve starts coming up again, you crank backwards just a little.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

jngregory
02-26-2007, 12:10 AM
Thanks, Dick. I understand. I'll give it a try.


John
1953 Commander Coupe
1954 Champion Sedan

jngregory
02-26-2007, 12:32 AM
StudeRich, I'm still learning about all this, and I sure appreciate the advice I get from you guys. I looked at the engine when it was a short block, before the heads went on. It is a partial flow block, late 50's, and I was told by the guy building the engine that it had a stock camshaft (not an R2 grind). There is tne Avanti dampener and timing cover on, and the timing gear is aluminum. The pistons are .40 overbored, Silvolite flat topped. The distributor is an electronic conversion (Dave Thibeault, I think). There is no windage tray, and the PCV comes out of the valley cover.

I've just installed the engine, and I wanted to check the valves before I tried to start it. No doubt I'll be back for more advice!



John
1953 Commander Coupe
1954 Champion Sedan

StudeRich
02-26-2007, 12:52 AM
John, I think if I had your engine I would need to know just how much of the original Avanti equipment is still on that engine for timing, tune-up maintenance and other reasons. Because your engine has a Avanti Timing Cover, did the F/O tell you if the R1/R2 Camshaft is still in there? Aluminum Cam Gear? Is the Prestolite dual point Distributor there? The 10.25 to 1 R1 flat top pistons? Does it have the short 3/8" reach spark plugs? PCV system pipe on the right side of Oil Pan? Windage trays in the the oil Pan? [:0][:0] (Ignition Timing on a Std. 289 which you led us to believe you had, is 4 degrees, R1 around 6-12, R2 24!!! it matters!)

Definetely Use Dick's method! I only told you how I do it. [^] I could never tell you which valve to use as a guide, or which valve to adjust without Dick's method printed out, which I have heard of, but never used.


quote:[i]Originally posted by jngregory
First question, I have a different vibration dampener, with one mark on the dampener, and 0 to 24 (degrees I believe) marked on a scaled pointer fixed to the timing cover. Where should I put the mark - on 0 degrees? (0 will work fine, good call!)
John

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

John Kirchhoff
02-26-2007, 11:47 AM
Steve is right, trying to adjust valves with the engine running is crazy. Just trying to hang onto the nuts with a wrench is like trying to hold a hog by its hind legs. I guess I'm not very sophisticated because regardless of the type of engine, I get it warmed up good and then just crank it over until both valves are closed and adjust them. It's pretty obvious when the valves open and I just turn the engine over a bit more.

Roscomacaw
02-26-2007, 01:45 PM
I know it isn't sofistickated, but I've done my valves as I previously described (starting with #1 and working thru the firing order) for 34 years now. No failures - fairly quiet valves. Of course, if you like burning your fingers, trying to keep your wrench on moving parts and having to contend with flying oil, there's certainly better ways to do it. I'm just too old an' stubborn to embrace them.:( BTW, I DO run thru them a second time, just to double check my own work.;)

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

stude freak
02-26-2007, 02:50 PM
Having worked on many cxxxy engines Dicks method is a tried and true example, works every time.

David Baggett Mantachie,Ms.

Mike Van Veghten
02-26-2007, 03:36 PM
Hot and running....last heard Stude's are solid lifters. Hot and running is ONLY for hydraulic lifters, despite what some may think.

There's no way you can get the adjustment as accurate with the engine running as you can with it not running. I've seen may claim they can...but not when put to the test!!!

Oh...it's only .002" out..! Well yea, that's not what the book calls for.

And my Stude book....lists the cold method first!

Mike

Rosstude
02-26-2007, 03:51 PM
Here is how I have been doing it for years, although there is more than one way to do it satisfactorily. I use the method which uses opposite cylinder at point of rock. Makes sense to me, lets see if I can explain it.
Divide firing order in half 1843 / 6572 If you line up the timing mark for #1, and look at #6 rockers, you will see that #6 has the exhaust just closing, and intake just opening. With plugs removed, rotate crank back and forth by hand, and watch #6 valves where they both are in motion, and equal, and at the “point of rock” you will note the timing mark lined up.
After a nice drive, with engine hot, I remove the plugs, and valve covers, and go to it, .025 seems to work well for me.
So, I adjust #1 with #6 at rock, and move on in order. 1=6, 8=5, 4=7, 3=2, then reverse 6=1, 5=8, 7=4, 2=3.

The Chevy way Dick mentioned has worked for me, as has the timing light & firing order method. This one I have used (once on a Stude, seemed to work OK) which came from a cam card from Comp Cams for a Mopar slant 6 application. This goes something like this, adjust the intake when the exhaust just begins to open, and adjust the exhaust with the intake ¾ of the way down, repeat for each cylinder.
Sorry got a bit of topic, .025" hot works for me.

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar

N8N
02-26-2007, 08:26 PM
I once watched an old-school mechanic set the valve clearances on a slant-six with the engine running. He made it look easy; you could hear the exhaust sound change when he got it "just right" and slipped the feeler gauge in. I tried to do it myself and just got frustrated and oily. I guess that's one of those things you just have to practice...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

S2DSteve
02-27-2007, 10:04 PM
Some additional thoughts on the subject:
1. "Cold" adjusting is designed to get a newly assembled engine "close" prior to start up. Every Cooperator Panel member at the Sacramento Meet was in agreement that "hot" was the only accurate way to adjust solid lifters (unless you figured out how to run an engine "cold").
2. The manual does call for adjusting "hot and running", but the same panel was in agreement that the engine does not have to be running if you get it thoroughly warmed up first.
3. Valve train clearance tends to decrease as the engine wears. If you set the valves "tight" to start with, they'll be quieter, but more likely to burn. Setting them looser is noisier, but safer.
4. A "go no go" feeler gauge is a very handy valve adjusting tool, and will help make the process go a lot quicker.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/S2DSteve/Convert010-1.jpg


Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1937 Dictator Streetrod
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
1953 Commander Convertible
1954 Champion Coupe

jngregory
02-28-2007, 10:25 AM
This has been a very informative thread for us newbies. Last evening I adjusted my valves on my newly installed 289 using Dick's "cold" method, and it was actually quite easy. Later, after I get the beast running, I'll check the clearances hot (but probably not running) and see how they measure up.

Thanks to all the contributors.


John
1953 Commander Coupe
1954 Champion Sedan

John Kirchhoff
02-28-2007, 11:01 AM
Steve mentioned valve clearences tightening up with wear. I've found it depends upon the engine and especially whether or not it has hardened valve seats and stellite valves. Stude may very well tighten up since if my memory is correct, the valve seats are machined into the cast iron of the head. With no lead in the gas anymore to provide a cushion between the valve and seat, the seat will recess and tightening up. The valves on my mom's '80 Chrysler with a solid lifter 225 would loosen up, but it had hardened seats for use with unleaded gas. My '69 Chrysler industrial engine on the combine didn't have hardened seats and on both heads I had one exhaust valve recess into the head probably 1/8". I still can't figure out why it was only one and not all of them.

Running valves too tight sure isn't good but neither is running too loose. I don't know about Stude camshafts, but modern cams for non-hydraulic lifter have what's called a clearance ramp on both sides of the lobe. Its purpose is to take up any slack between the lobe and the lifter before the steep part of the lobe slams open the valve. If the clearance is too great, there's still slack and it's kind of like the difference between pulling someone with a chain that's either taut or has slack in it when you first take off. I'm sure that's not a concern with hydraulic lifters but it has been standard practice on motorcycle engines for years.

Roscomacaw
02-28-2007, 11:24 AM
Lots of interesting advice and opnions here. And I'm sure not one to buck what Co-operatror correspondents opine. I only stand in their shadows.[B)]
Yet, I feel OK in offering that in 34 years of building and driving my own Studes, I've only ever used the cold method and NEVER had a valve burn on me. Not one. 6cyl or 8.
And unlike some here, I tend to actually keep and drive my Studes for SOME years, so I have a fair idea of how my handiwork has fared.
Pete fired off the other day and there's no noise from the valve train. I SWEAR to you, if he burns a valve over time, you'll be the first to hear of it!;)
Of course, I will say that I know alot of gearheads that simply LOVE to have the hood up and tinkering constantly. They seem to thrive on hot, oily vapors and continual checking of belt tensions, spark plug gaps, etc., etc., etc.. That's not for me. My "style" is to put it together, watch to see that it's isn't leaving oil ponds thereafter and listen for odd sounds that might give a hint that something's about to fall or fly off under the hood.[xx(] Continually passing on those markers, I continue to take to the passing lane. :D Of course: Your results may vary.;)


Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

Mike Van Veghten
02-28-2007, 02:31 PM
Interesting...

Mr. Biggs and I don't normally agree on much...but after drag racing a few different brands over my 50+ years...I'll stick with the cold adjustment too.

Possibly in the "really" old automotive days when metallurgy wasn't what it is today, hot was the best way to go.
But with the accuracy of todays (including most at 40 years ago!) metallurgy...any difference in valve to valve setting difference...will more likely be in the operators "feel" than the material he/she is working with being hot or cold!

Mike

Tom B
02-28-2007, 11:06 PM
Did I miss something? Setting valves with hydraulic lifters, hot or cold? That's the beauty of hydraulic lifers, No possible adjustment. The lube system fills the lifter with oil so it drifts against the 'off-lobe' cam, the lobe comes around and plushes on the lifter so quickly that no oil has a chance to escape, then it drops off, allowing the lifter to fill again if it needs it.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Bothcars.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe
'60 Lark VI
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All three Indiana built OD cars

Dick Steinkamp
02-28-2007, 11:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by Tom B

Did I miss something? Setting valves with hydraulic lifters, hot or cold? That's the beauty of hydraulic lifers, No possible adjustment.


Hydraulic lifters have to be adjusted every time the valve gear is disassembled (rockers replaced, valve job, heads removed for other reasons, etc.). The only way it can be done that I know of is with the engine running. All lash is taken out (the lifter being adjusted gets quiet), then the lifter is centered in the bore by turning the additional number of turns specified by the manufacturer.

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

dave smith
03-01-2007, 07:21 PM
not all hydaulic lifters are adjustable notably many fords and chryslers and rocker shaft gm engines. adj hyd lifters can be set cold by zeroing pushrod then adding correct preload. in the old days most valves were set cold. had to be on most flatheads. but I believe Dicks method easiest and most accurate.