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maxpower1954
04-14-2010, 12:20 AM
Hey Chris, what's the story on the moon cart? The time frame is right for Project Apollo. Russ Farris

1963 GT Hawk R-2 4-speed
1964 Avanti R-1 Auto

Milaca
04-14-2010, 12:25 AM
Is that history research television show 'History Detectives' still on PBS? If so, it would be worth contacting them and giving them this lead for a possible future episode. They may be able to prove beyond a doubt that it was for the moon mission and may be able to find more information about its purpose.

Okay, I just found the link for their website and they are looking for stories like this. Here's the link: http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/index.html

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2736/4478293868_83da2fe493_t.jpg
Love birds...Red Hawks in mating season.
In the middle of Minnestudea

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 12:41 AM
Well, from what I have been able to gather from it, and what I have been told about it, it was built as a proposal for the US government to be used for the Apollo moom landing. It was apperantly built in 1963, and close to the time that Studebaker closed down the South Bend plant, and as a result, the engineering dept. where it was built. Since it was built in '63, it was just left there and eventually migrated next door to Newman & Altman for a few years while South Bend Lathe used the engineering building. Then after that move, it found its way back to the engineering building. The cart and a few other prototype pieces migrated with it also, but they arent part of this thing. The cart has foam type, no air tires. The reason for this was incase it got a plat tire, it would be hard to pump it back up on the moon, so no air tires seemed logical. It is made of Aluminium tube, so it has no rust and it rather light. It does have a few steel parts. The steering bracket and the castle nuts that hold the wheels on. It steers with two drive shaft yokes and a U-joint welded to two pieces of stell, brackets. I have found some numbers on it: "63-E" and "705". It appears that the tag for it was misplaced or broken off. Here are some pics:
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/mc.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/cart705.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/cartaxle.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/cartwheelbolt.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/cartyoke.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/carthandle.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/steerbracket.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/63-E.jpg
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/meandmooncart.jpg

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

Milaca
04-14-2010, 12:52 AM
Chris, will you contact the 'History Detectives' show or should I do it for you? :) They may be able to access NASA files, among other things. Plus, if they feature it on the television show, you could get yourself on television! Wouldnt that be fun? Seriously though, they are looking for subjects like this. You got nothing to lose. :)

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 06:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by Milaca

Chris, will you contact the 'History Detectives' show or should I do it for you? :) They may be able to access NASA files, among other things. Plus, if they feature it on the television show, you could get yourself on television! Wouldnt that be fun? Seriously though, they are looking for subjects like this. You got nothing to lose. :)

Well, looks like I don't have much to loose, nor much of a choice![:0][:p] Heck, lets go for it. I mean, how often do you see a moon cart[?] This is just the kind of weird stuff that they are looking for, so it's bound to end up on the show. You emal, or me[?];) Both would double the chances of it getting on the show.;):D

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

kurtruk
04-14-2010, 06:22 PM
Chris wrote:

The cart has foam type, no air tires. The reason for this was in case it got a flat tire, it would be hard to pump it back up on the moon, so no air tires seemed logical.


Uh, Chris...you'd better re-think this reasoning.;)

Yes, it [u]would be difficult</u> to keep air in them, but not for the same reasons we have here on Earth![8]

KURTRUK
(read it backwards)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/2617723594_889afb71cf_t.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2267352611_96939dc723_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/2679715309_9655c80e5e_m.jpg

Nothing is politically right which is morally wrong. -A. Lincoln

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 06:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by kurtruk

Chris wrote:

The cart has foam type, no air tires. The reason for this was in case it got a flat tire, it would be hard to pump it back up on the moon, so no air tires seemed logical.


Uh, Chris...you'd better re-think this reasoning.;)

Yes, it [u]would be difficult</u> to keep air in them, but not for the same reasons we have here on Earth![8]

KURTRUK
(read it backwards)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/2617723594_889afb71cf_t.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2267352611_96939dc723_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/2679715309_9655c80e5e_m.jpg

Nothing is politically right which is morally wrong. -A. Lincoln

True, the tires are pretty big. Ah Ha! That's the reason it has no air tires and didn't go to the moon! If it had air in the tires, it's so light it might float away![:o)][:o)]

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 06:32 PM
Well, I just submited the story to History Detectives. I hope I get a response.:)

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

mbstude
04-14-2010, 06:35 PM
I think the "moon cart" theory is a wild tale someone made up after seeing the thing. I find that theory hard to believe without some documentation. (Aside from "this is the story that was passed on from...") Even then I probably still wouldn't believe it.

Steve T
04-14-2010, 06:51 PM
...but so odd a device will have some sort of interesting backstory, irrespective of whether or not it was intended for Apollo. And Chris might be able to cajole the TV folks into showing quick grab shots of his '40 and/or the Model N bits...more profile-building for our favourite make of car. I hope this proceeds! BTW "History Detectives" is seen up here in Canada on the (Canadian) Discovery Channel (a different beast from the similarly-named US outlet); I've seen quite a few episodes of it and very much enjoy the show.

S.

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 07:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by Steve T

...but so odd a device will have some sort of interesting backstory, irrespective of whether or not it was intended for Apollo. And Chris might be able to cajole the TV folks into showing quick grab shots of his '40 and/or the Model N bits...more profile-building for our favourite make of car. I hope this proceeds! BTW "History Detectives" is seen up here in Canada on the (Canadian) Discovery Channel (a different beast from the similarly-named US outlet); I've seen quite a few episodes of it and very much enjoy the show.

S.

Well, it is sitting near the '40!:D

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 11:14 PM
Contacted HD. No response, yet... Now what[?]:)

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

Milaca
04-14-2010, 11:29 PM
Be patient Grasshopper. If Elyse Luray comes to your door, invite her in and tell her what a great guy I am and that I am single....;)

Chris_Dresbach
04-14-2010, 11:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by Milaca

Be patient Grasshopper. If Elyse Luray comes to your door, invite her in and tell her what a great guy I am and that I am single....;)

Ok, I can tell her that I'm a great guy and I'm single, but man that would look weird in front of my girlfriend...;)[:o)]:D[:0]

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

maxpower1954
04-15-2010, 12:38 AM
Well, my thinking - if it IS a "moon cart" it was done as a proof of concept prototype, either on some engineers's own time or with minimal investment from the company, on speculation. In 1963 Grumman was still finalizing the design of the Lunar Module - the specs for such a device probably were not fixed yet.

20 billion 1960s dollars were spent on Apollo. I don't think any of that made it to Studebaker.
They did own the subsidary (I forgot the name)that made the heat shield for the Mercury program though, so who knows? Russ Farris

1963 GT Hawk R-2 4-speed
1964 Avanti R-1 Auto

8E45E
04-15-2010, 04:08 AM
My take on the idea of a 'moon cart' is far too early in the Apollo program. NASA was still trying to perfect 'Take-off-and-Landing' in 1963 on both the moon and on earth itself. They didn't even get a 'soft' landing on the moon until 1966. A Lunar-Rover of any type was an icing-on-the-cake thing for the Apollo missions and wasn't in the works until the moon landings themselves were perfected. It wasn't until 1971 when the first Lunar-Rover was completed, and then it was primarily the tire companies and the battery companies in the running with that project.

The only remote possibility would be for Studebaker's 'Applied Research' Division where it may have been some sort of preliminary concept for either of these two vehicles below:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4046/4522287535_eefa73926b_b.jpg
Chris has mentioned the tires are foam filled. It would fit the concept of 'Buzzard' project on the right, which would allow it to negotiate water as per the text. Of course, the only problem is anything for the Defence Department would have been done in utmost secrecy. Either records for each project would have been destroyed, or turned over the the Defence Depeartment for their safekeeping. Therefore, if this unit is product of Studebaker's 'Applied Research' Division, which I am led to believe it could be, futher information on it may be scarce.

Craig

Milaca
04-15-2010, 12:35 PM
Wow Craig, I've never seen these things before. What other cool finds do you have to share? I especially like the flying Avanti. ;)

As for the Studebaker division that made heat shields for NASA's Mercury program, that was CTL. The following excerpt is copied from a NASA webpage: "Cincinnati Testing and Research Laboratory of the Studebaker-Packard Corporation, Cincinnati, Ohio -
Heat shield for the Mercury spacecraft."

They also had a contract for the Gemini program in 1962:
"April 25
Studebaker Corporation's CTL Division, Cincinnati, Ohio, received a subcontract for $457,875 from McDonnell to provide two backup heatshields for the Gemini spacecraft, similar in material and fabrication technique to those used in Project Mercury. The CTL heatshield would be used only if a new shield McDonnell was working on proved unusable. Test results from screening advanced heatshield materials had yielded four promising materials. McDonnell had contracted with Vidya, Inc., Palo Alto, California (March 16), and Chicago Midway Laboratories, Chicago, Illinois (mid-April), to test the new ablation materials."

Here are links to Studebaker related content on the NASA website:
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4001/app9.htm
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4002/p1b.htm
http://search.nasa.gov/search/search.jsp?nasaInclude=studebaker

Chris_Dresbach
04-15-2010, 06:30 PM
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/4522287535_eefa73926b_b-1.jpg
Craig! I think you may have found the possible answer![:0] The "Turtle" even resembles what mine looks like, and it was built in the right time frame! With the only exception being that mine was made for dry land use, unless my tires were "mock up only." And mine is not self propelled. One thing I did discover about mine is that it has what looks like a rubber cover that went over it. It is ripped to shreads, but I had thought that it could have been a cargo mat. Do you have any more on this thing, Craig[?]

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

PlainBrownR2
04-15-2010, 06:48 PM
Well now this changes things quite a bit. Rather than the moon it went into the back 40. It wasn't for research transport, it may have been for ammunition transport. If it's self propelled and it has a tongue like a trailer, it might be used in an application like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/M561_Gama_Goat.JPEG/800px-M561_Gama_Goat.JPEG

That is the GAMA Goat. The trailer on the rear of the vehicle receives power like the four wheels up front. All six wheels on that vehicle are powered, and is a military vehicle. It's great for climbing hills, rocks, fording streams(it floats), and getting anywhere you need to go.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

Chris_Dresbach
04-15-2010, 07:33 PM
Well, that's close. And one of my origional thoughts was it could be and ammo cart. The goat and trailer is a lot heavier built than my cart though. Mine is made for very light weight use. I think we may have it narrowed down to two possibilities: either a moon cart, or a Studebaker "Turtle"

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.

8E45E
04-16-2010, 12:11 AM
Chris: These ads were published in the June, 1979 Turning Wheels. I remembered them so well because a: they are not mainstream Studebaker ads directed at the public. b: because of whom the ads were directed to, and the concept ideas and drawings are most intriguing. The Turtle as shown looks remarkably similar to many of the six-wheel All Terrain Vehicles that flooded the market some ten years later.

http://www.route6x6.com/memorylane/MagicCircle/index.html

I do not have any further information on it, or any of the other Applied Research creations at all. One can safely assume if development was very far along on a machine similar to the Turtle or the Buzzard, the contract would have been transferred by the Defence Deparment to some other mobility company such as AMF after Studebaker became a holding company only when the factory closed and eliminated its engineering department.

Chris_Dresbach
04-16-2010, 12:18 AM
I think this would be a good excuse to go to the SNM archives in the upcoming week.;):D

Chris Dresbach. South Bend, In.
http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/ModelN-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/40champion-1-1.jpghttp://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/chris_dresbach/Studebaker%201/N10-1-1.jpg
1940 Champion two door.
Parts of the 1952 Model N prototype.
1963 Prototype moon cart built by Studebaker.