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vegas paul
12-26-2009, 05:42 PM
I was at a local cruise-in (non-Studebaker) explaining to a newbie the definition of a hardtop. I was feeling all techno-savvy, defining the B and C pillars, being your basic nose-in-the-air know it all, when he asked me "Well is your car a hardtop?" I stopped and probably had a dumb look on my face... I had never really thought about it.

So... for all you purists - Is a 51 Business Coupe (3-passenger coupe) a hardtop? It definitely does not have a B pillar, and boy does it have a massive C pillar, but are Biz coupes still considered part of that lofty group? Funny, I never asked myself the question after all these years.

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

BobGlasscock
12-26-2009, 05:45 PM
gotta be a hardtop.


Drop a brick on the top, the brick stops. :)

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg

Chris_Dresbach
12-26-2009, 05:47 PM
B pillars, C pillars, XYZ pillars, whatever you want to call them, if the roof is metal and does not fold down, it is a hardtop.:)

Chris Dresbach

50Champ
12-26-2009, 05:47 PM
If you roll down the front and back windows and there's no pillar/post between them it's a hardtop. Otherwise it's a sedan....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1188/4526177/20234971/329233113.jpg

1950 Champion 2 Dr. Sedan

BobGlasscock
12-26-2009, 05:51 PM
But, Dave, he has no back windows!!!!!

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg

COMMANDERPINK1
12-26-2009, 05:52 PM
quote:Originally posted by 50Champ

If you roll down the front and back windows and there's no pillar/post between them it's a hardtop. Otherwise it's a sedan....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1188/4526177/20234971/329233113.jpg

1950 Champion 2 Dr. Sedan






Dont believe you can roll the rear windows down on Pauls Business Coupe:) Sooo then now what[?]

Tom

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx240/TOMLSEXTON/Iowa036.jpg

barnlark
12-26-2009, 05:53 PM
Not according to the Body Parts Book. Yours is a Q body.

2R5
12-26-2009, 06:01 PM
Thats why its called a coupe ;)



[IMG]http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l300/2R5/smallchamp-1.jpghttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l300/2R5/2008Daytona.jpg
Home of the Fried Green Tomato
"IF YOU WANT THE SMILES YOU NEED TO DO THE MILES "

1960 Champ
1964 Daytona HT
1966 Daytona SS

barnlark
12-26-2009, 06:03 PM
Exactly. ;)

Milaca
12-26-2009, 06:06 PM
It looks like the door on your car has a fixed frame around the window, therefor it can NOT be a hardtop.

S o
T hey
U sed
D elco
E lectronics
B efore
A utolite
K ept
E verything
R unning?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4214451713_e3b746ee90_t.jpg
1949 2R17
R is for Rusty
In the middle of Minnesota

StudeRich
12-26-2009, 06:11 PM
If it's not an "open air", "Hardtop Convertible", the original term for Hardtop, since most share the same or similar "no post" windows and doors as a Convertible...

It's [u]NOT</u> a Hardtop!

Yes there were: 2 door, 4 Door, 2 Door Wagons and 4 Door Wagons that were Hardtops! [:0]

StudeRich

vegas paul
12-26-2009, 06:36 PM
I don't have any back windows!!! But I do have a full frame around the door windows... so, is it a hard top or not? No pillar, but then again, there's that frame around the window. So, you can see why I felt dumb the other night (not that I need any particular reason to feel dumb these days).

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

rockne10
12-26-2009, 07:00 PM
In my eyes:
Hardtop has rear quarter windows or, in the case of four door hardtops, windows that roll down and no B pillar; no window frame around door(s).
'53-'61 C has rear quarter windows that don't roll down and are referred to as coupes; not sedans or hardtops. More to the point, is the C body really a sedan?
Business coupe would be a coupe; maybe a sedan; not a hardtop.
The terms coupe, sedan, landau, etc. come from the days of the carriage. I don't think there was a carriage referred to as a hardtop.
Visions and definitions change.

Dick Steinkamp
12-26-2009, 07:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by Milaca

It looks like the door on your car has a fixed frame around the window, therefor it can NOT be a hardtop.



Bingo! With a fixed frame around the door(s) it is a COUPE...not a hardtop.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/IMG_7215-1.jpg http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/IMG_7216-1.jpg

vegas paul
12-26-2009, 07:09 PM
Thanks. I still feel dumb, but at least I feel dumb and informed...

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

COMMANDERPINK1
12-26-2009, 07:17 PM
Clear as mud:)

Tom

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx240/TOMLSEXTON/Iowa036.jpg

Milaca
12-26-2009, 07:20 PM
Are all coupes only equipped with a front seat and all sedans have front and rear seats? I need to know in case someone asks me at a car show. ;)

S o
T hey
U sed
D elco
E lectronics
B efore
A utolite
K ept
E verything
R unning?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4214451713_e3b746ee90_t.jpg
1949 2R17
R is for Rusty
In the middle of Minnesota

Anne F. Goodman
12-26-2009, 07:23 PM
Nope coupes can and do have rear seats. And my car has a hardtop but isn't a hardtop.:D

Mabel 1949 Champion
Hawk 1957 Silverhawk
Gus 1958 Transtar
The Prez 1955 President State
Blu 1957 Golden Hawk
Daisy 1954 Regal Commander Starlight Coupe
Fresno,Ca
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/nw3anne/Mabel.jpg?t=1165475035http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/nw3anne/xmasannecopy.jpghttp://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/nw3anne/GusMater.jpghttp://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/nw3anne/th_DSCN17232008-01-01.jpghttp://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o269/nw3anne/54%20Commander%20Regal%20Coupe/3539580552_f5500eb0d8-1-1.jpg

N8N
12-26-2009, 07:33 PM
the difference between a coupe and a 2-door sedan, strictly speaking, isn't really well defined. The term "coupe" tends to be used for sportier or smaller models, e.g. a business coupe or a C-body.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Johnnywiffer
12-26-2009, 07:40 PM
According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convertible the “hardtop convertible” was an idea (not necessarily a “term”) used by Hudson in 1922 and the 1941 Chrysler Thunderbolt in the U.S. Of course, there was only one of each, but each had a metal top that DID go into the trunk. Some other manufacturers had ideas along the same lines but only produced “dream” cars, if anything at all.

I think it was the1949 Buick Riviera that could first be classified as a “hardtop convertible”. Because, tho it LOOKED like a convertible (no B-pillar), it had a “hard” (metal) top that DID NOT go into the trunk. Within a couple of years, all US manufacturers had cars that LOOKED like convertible but weren’t. As mentioned, “hardtops” had no B-pillar, that is, when the windows were down, there was a post from the bottom of the car to the top of the doors but no post above the doors.

But there were some cars that MIGHT be classed as hardtops because tho they had B-pillars, they had no immovable window frames. The frames (usually chrome) were glued to the glass and when you rolled down the windows, there was no window frame left above the door. Confused yet?

In 1957, the Ford Skyliner was the FIRST TRUE hardtop convertible that you could buy—a car with no B-pillar and a metal top that ACTUALLY went into the trunk at the touch of a button. The car was made for only 3 years but was a sensation at the time of its intro. Tho, since it cost about twice as much as a standard sedan, it did not sell well.

The problem was that sometime in this era, the terms “hardtop” and “hardtop convertible” became interchangeable, whether the top DID or DID NOT go into the trunk. In 1955, even Studebaker began calling the model that was formerly called Starliners, 5-passenger “hardtops”.

So, if your business coupe has an IMMOVABLE frame around the front door window, it’s a sedan (or a coupe) not a hardtop, even tho the top is “hard’ and there is no B-pillar (as you said the C-pillar is pretty wide.

Good luck figuring this out!

John

50Champ
12-26-2009, 07:49 PM
quote:Originally posted by BobGlasscock

But, Dave, he has no back windows!!!!!

Then it can't be a hardtop. It's that simple....:)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1188/4526177/20234971/329233113.jpg

1950 Champion 2 Dr. Sedan

buddymander
12-26-2009, 07:51 PM
My convertible has no frame around the doorglass, so I guess it's a hardtop.

50Champ
12-26-2009, 07:54 PM
Here are two Buick 2 door hardtops. Note that there is no post between the windows when they are rolled down....

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1950-1959/1954-Buick-blue-wt-fa-sy.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1188/4526177/20234971/329233113.jpg

1950 Champion 2 Dr. Sedan

Milaca
12-26-2009, 07:59 PM
Crosley convertible
http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Crosley/1949CrosleyConvertible-a.jpghttp://www.oldwoodies.com/img/events/lawood01/esposito/crosley_convert_sm.jpg
Don't you just love exceptions? :D LOL

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4214451713_e3b746ee90_t.jpg
1949 2R17
R is for Rusty
In the middle of Minnesota

Bo Markham
12-26-2009, 08:00 PM
It is neither a hardtop, or a sedan. It is a Business Coupe. A class of vehicle all unto it's own.

StudeRich
12-26-2009, 08:58 PM
Weren't those Crosleys and Ramblers like that, called "Roll Backs" or "Roll Back Convertibles" because that is what they are.

They really should be called Convertible Sedans, because they are NOT Convertibles, and certainly NOT Hardtops.

You can find exceptions to every rule, but there are "norms".



StudeRich

8E45E
12-26-2009, 09:04 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

Weren't those Crosleys and Ramblers like that, called "Roll Backs" or "Roll Back Convertibles" because that is what they are.

They really should be called Convertible Sedans, because they are NOT Convertibles, and certainly NOT Hardtops.

You can find exceptions to every rule, but there are "norms".


And Studebaker themselves really muddied the waters by calling the 'Four Seasons' convertible a 'Roadster'. A 'roadster' is a 2 door with a top that goes down, and side curtains instead of roll-up windows.

Craig

StudeRich
12-26-2009, 09:16 PM
Craig; not that I want to talk about pre-war cars, because they don't fit in our "Hardtop" 1949 & up era we are talking about, and I know little about them... but wasn't a Studebaker 4 Seasons Roadster, a long, low "sport" convertible sort of, as opposed to a Sedan "Roadster" as you describe, that other makes built?

I equate it to a '53 Starlight/Starliner vs other 2 Dr. Sedan types. [:0]

StudeRich

rayoung55
12-26-2009, 09:22 PM
And so this would be a???
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc80/rayoung55/Studes/26DuplexPhaeton.jpg

It has Roll Down windows to put them Up. No post between the front and back windows. 1926 EP Big Six Duplex Phaeton.

63t-cab
12-26-2009, 09:27 PM
All my Studebakers have tops that are "RIGID" regardless of what the sides have going on ! (even my Champ 8E12)

Joseph R. Zeiger

StudeRich
12-26-2009, 09:33 PM
Looks like a Touring Car, which did have side curtains.

StudeRich

barnlark
12-26-2009, 10:33 PM
The question at hand was:
So... for all you purists - Is a 51 Business Coupe (3-passenger coupe) a hardtop?

Since it wasn't an all encompassing, all marques question which did have some muddy waters through the years, it's really pretty finite for your Studebaker:

Body symbol C- All 5 passenger Coupes- C1 thru C5

Body symbol F- All 2 door Sedans- F1, F3, F5

Body symbol K- All "Convertible" (Hardtops) K2- for both Regal & State

Body symbol Q- All 3 passenger Coupes- Q1, Q2, Q4

Body symbol S- All Convertible (folding top)- S2-Regal & State

Body symbol W- All four door Sedans- W1, W3, W5

Body symbol Y- All four door Landcruisers- Y5

8E45E
12-26-2009, 10:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

Craig; not that I want to talk about pre-war cars, because they don't fit in our "Hardtop" 1949 & up era we are talking about, and I know little about them... but wasn't a Studebaker 4 Seasons Roadster, a long, low "sport" convertible sort of, as opposed to a Sedan "Roadster" as you describe, that other makes built?


A 2 or 4 door that seats four or five with top that lowers with side curtains was called a 'Touring' according to most literature of the era.

The Duplex Pheaton was indeed a 'hardtop touring'.[^]

Craig

Milaca
12-26-2009, 10:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

Weren't those Crosleys and Ramblers like that, called "Roll Backs" or "Roll Back Convertibles" because that is what they are.

They really should be called Convertible Sedans, because they are NOT Convertibles, and certainly NOT Hardtops.

You can find exceptions to every rule, but there are "norms".



StudeRich


I believe the manufacturers called them a 'convertible', but only auto manufacturers with little money to spend on engineering and tooling would make such a sedan with a fold down canopy and sell it as a convertible. Studebaker may have been low on funds, but at least they built true convertibles. [8D]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4214451713_e3b746ee90_t.jpg
1949 2R17
R is for Rusty
In the middle of Minnesota

woodysrods
12-26-2009, 10:55 PM
The frame around the window is your best theory to follow. Fits every hardtop I can think of to this point.
I have always thought of your car as a coupe. Three windowed cars have been called evrything from "deluxe coupes to business coupes"
Which also can be misleading, as I currently own a "5 window Businessmans coupe" (47 Merc)

Brian Woods
woodysrods@shaw.ca
1946 M Series (Shop Truck)
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae283/woodysrods/Concunully004.jpg

clonelark
12-27-2009, 06:01 AM
Paul i also have a 51 Q-4,Body # 2233 of 2429. It was sold New in Morrilton Arkansas according to the build sheet. Build sheet was pretty blank.

If it wasn't for the last minute i'd never get anything done.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2ue1tap.jpg

Johnnywiffer
12-27-2009, 09:57 AM
quote:Originally posted by buddymander

My convertible has no frame around the doorglass, so I guess it's a hardtop.Only if the top is "hard". And/or it goes into the trunk. Or it's a '22 Hudson or '41 Thunderbolt or '57-'59 Skyliner. [:o)] Confused yet?

John

gordr
12-27-2009, 10:39 AM
"Hardtop" is pretty simple. It's just a car that has all the attributes of a convertible EXCEPT the folding fabric top. In many cases, hardtops were developed FROM their marque's companion convertible, especially in the early days of the body style. Once the hardtop body style became popular, then you got things like 4-door hardtops and hardtop station wagons that had no companion convertible.

There are very few true hardtops on the market today.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Dick Steinkamp
12-27-2009, 10:46 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


Bingo! With a fixed frame around the door(s) it is a COUPE...not a hardtop.




But I guess not the other way around. Here's a coupe (B pillar) with no frame around the door windows...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/Thunderhill%205-06/462d.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/IMG_7215-1.jpg http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/IMG_7216-1.jpg

Johnnywiffer
12-27-2009, 10:48 AM
It’s pretty simple. A Starliner IS a hardtop, a Starlight coupe IS NOT a hard top (EXCEPT for ’58!)

A “model C” is NOT a “hardtop”

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/johnnywiffer/hawks91.jpg

A “model K” IS a hardtop.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/johnnywiffer/hawks97.jpg

The car on the top is NOT a hardtop.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s311/johnnywiffer/HARDTOP.jpg

The car on the bottom IS a hardtop

A ’61 Hark is a “C” (non-hardtop), a ’62 is a “K” (hardtop).

Got it?

John

buddymander
12-27-2009, 01:20 PM
Can a truck be a hardtop? Cuz my 71 Blazer had no frame around the door windows..I guess it was a hardtop convertible two door phaeton cuz the top was removable..

57fury
12-27-2009, 01:28 PM
Years ago a friend had one of the first Chev Belairs. The interior was stripped out and you could see that it was literally a steel hardtop bolted to a convertible body, thus the term "hardtop convertible".

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy33/fintastic57/demosfall09001-1.jpgDick Whelan Spencerport NY

studegary
12-27-2009, 01:33 PM
Like a lot of things in Wikipedia, they are incorrect. I guess that you get what you pay for. For example, Ford was not the first with a retractable hardtop. Without researching the models and years, I think that Peugeot had one in about 1935 and a couple of others made them before Ford for the 1957 model year. Advertising has a lot to do with this. Ford ads made it look like they were the first. This is like the one horsepower per cubic inch Chevrolet ads for 1957 when Chrysler had this in 1956.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

8E45E
12-27-2009, 01:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by gordr

There are very few true hardtops on the market today.


Indeed! That was documented before here:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15178&SearchTerms=brooklands

What is interesting is the trend towards 'retractable hardtops' these days, and any car with a fabric top is almost considered out of date if it has one. Of course, some convertibles will never go that route with a sectional steel top like the VW Beetle, but with security issues, and now that the trunklid also opens for loading luggage in a normal manner, the retractable hardtop is no longer the novelty they once were.

Craig

Flashback
12-27-2009, 02:06 PM
Thanks Craig, and Bob Palma, this should make this clear.
Hardtops, and post, and coupes, that is. Most us old farts
already have it in our heads, and no amount of discussion
will change it.

Tex E. Grier
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Flashback53/DSC_0045-3.jpg

Roscomacaw
12-27-2009, 02:32 PM
Business Qupe!:D

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30906179/aview/58_Avatar.jpg
1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

StudeRich
12-27-2009, 03:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by Flashback

Thanks Craig, and Bob Palma,/Cut/

Wow, you can see Bob Palma here? [:0]

How do you do that? I think he is here, but he is in "Stealth Mode", none of US can see him! [:0] [:0] [:0]

StudeRich

8E45E
12-27-2009, 03:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich


quote:Originally posted by Flashback

Thanks Craig, and Bob Palma,/Cut/

Wow, you can see Bob Palma here? [:0]

How do you do that? I think he is here, but he is in "Stealth Mode", none of US can see him! [:0] [:0] [:0]

StudeRich


He's only a LURKER now!:(

Craig

Jim B PEI
12-27-2009, 04:49 PM
Of course, to muddy it further, Kaiser (49-50) and Frazer (49-50-51) came out with both 4 door convertibles8 and also hardtops**. To see why the asterisks, google a picture of them and look at the B pillar. Yes, it is glass and removeable.

Jim B on PEI
63 259 o/d Wagonaire
57 Champion W4 o/d
57 Champion W4 automatic

StudeRich
12-27-2009, 04:59 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jim B PEI

Of course, to muddy it further,

Please don't! :D

It either has a hard roof and a "B" pillar or it does NOT! :)
End of story.

StudeRich

8E45E
12-27-2009, 05:13 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

It either has a hard roof and a "B" pillar or it does NOT! :)
End of story.



That one is an odd one, Rich..the "B-pillar/section" is a removeable piece of glass, but the chrome frames around the windows on the doors are fixed. On cannot run their hand interupted from the 'A' pillar to the 'C' pillar with the windows open and that small section of glass removed. Still a 'sedan' to me.

Craig

Retired
12-27-2009, 05:34 PM
And Studebaker identified their '41 & '42 President & Commander two door Coupes "Sedan Coupes" Figure that one out.

Richard

50starlite
12-27-2009, 06:59 PM
I know a hardtop when I see one and that's good enough for me;)

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/50starlite/IMG_2652.jpg
Dick
Mountain Home, AR
http://www.livingintheozarks.com/studebaker.htm

sbca96
12-27-2009, 09:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by 50Champ

If you roll down the front and back windows and there's no pillar/post between them it's a hardtop. Otherwise it's a sedan


quote:Originally posted by woodysrods

The frame around the window is your best theory to follow. Fits every hardtop I can think of to this point.


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

But I guess not the other way around. Here's a coupe (B pillar) with no frame around the door windows...

Interesting that no one mentioned the Avanti yet. No frame around the
glass, but with window down, it still has a post. Much like the BMW
that Dick posted a picture of. So, Avanti a "Coupe", like the '51? Or is
it a hardtop? Or could it be a Hardtop Coupe?!

Tom

Johnnywiffer
12-28-2009, 08:31 AM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

...For example, Ford was not the first with a retractable hardtop....I think I said it was the 1st one you could BUY, tho I think Ford had a "concept" car with the "hardtop convertible" attribute prior to the Skyliner.

As for getting what you pay for with Wikipedia, there are books for which I have paid that include errors about Studebaker--or Corvair--or Fiero. Price does not a perfect book make.

John

65cruiser
12-28-2009, 08:57 AM
When I bought my Sebring convertible, I rented an 08 to see if I would really like the ragtop. The 08 Sebring is built as both a retractable hardtop or softtop. Both go into the trunk (the trunk opens in reverse when lowering the top and it slips into the trunk. Real clean looking but when the top is down, there is NO trunk. I opted for a 2006 model that is built like a regular convertible. Top up or down, you still have some trunk space.


quote:Originally posted by 8E45E


quote:Originally posted by gordr

There are very few true hardtops on the market today.


Indeed! That was documented before here:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15178&SearchTerms=brooklands

What is interesting is the trend towards 'retractable hardtops' these days, and any car with a fabric top is almost considered out of date if it has one. Of course, some convertibles will never go that route with a sectional steel top like the VW Beetle, but with security issues, and now that the trunklid also opens for loading luggage in a normal manner, the retractable hardtop is no longer the novelty they once were.

Craig


Mark Anderson
Member SDC and FMCA
Keeper of the Studebaker Cruiser Registry
www.65cruiser.com


http://www.65cruiser.com/images/studewordy.jpg

65cruiser
12-28-2009, 08:58 AM
When I bought my Sebring convertible, I rented an 08 to see if I would really like the ragtop. The 08 Sebring is built as both a retractable hardtop or softtop. Both go into the trunk (the trunk opens in reverse when lowering the top and it slips into the trunk. Real clean looking but when the top is down, there is NO trunk. I opted for a 2006 model that is built like a regular convertible. Top up or down, you still have some trunk space.


quote:Originally posted by 8E45E


quote:Originally posted by gordr

There are very few true hardtops on the market today.


Indeed! That was documented before here:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15178&SearchTerms=brooklands

What is interesting is the trend towards 'retractable hardtops' these days, and any car with a fabric top is almost considered out of date if it has one. Of course, some convertibles will never go that route with a sectional steel top like the VW Beetle, but with security issues, and now that the trunklid also opens for loading luggage in a normal manner, the retractable hardtop is no longer the novelty they once were.

Craig


Mark Anderson
Member SDC and FMCA
Keeper of the Studebaker Cruiser Registry
www.65cruiser.com


http://www.65cruiser.com/images/studewordy.jpg

8E45E
12-28-2009, 09:01 AM
quote:Originally posted by Johnnywiffer


quote:Originally posted by studegary

...For example, Ford was not the first with a retractable hardtop....[size=2][font=Comic Sans MS][b]I think I said it was the 1st one you could BUY, tho I think Ford had a "concept" car with the "hardtop convertible" attribute prior to the Skyliner.


Ford was working on a retractable-hardtop version of the Continental Mark II, and one or two prototypes were made before Ford decided to discontinue Mark II production.

I believe this was the first commercially available retractable hardtop:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2544/4221701581_53443aa0c1_b.jpg

Peugeot also made a prototype [b]4-door retractable hardtop a few years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYqAlXsTi4

Narration is in French, but its a good video of it.
Craig

studegary
12-28-2009, 12:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by Johnnywiffer


quote:Originally posted by studegary

...For example, Ford was not the first with a retractable hardtop....[blue][size=2][font=Comic Sans MS][b]I think I said it was the 1st one you could BUY, tho I think Ford had a "concept" car with the "hardtop convertible" attribute prior to the Skyliner.

As for getting what you pay for with Wikipedia, there are books for which I have paid that include errors about Studebaker--or Corvair--or Fiero. Price does not a perfect book make.

John


I was referring to Wikipedia, not any comment previously made by you. Wikipedia calls Ford the first. Other brands did have retractable hardtops that "...you could BUY..." prior to the 1957 Fords.

I agree that "Price does not a perfect book make." Most books have some errors. I bought the Pat Foster Studebaker book. The day that I received it I started to look through it. There were such major errors, like confusing Starlight and Starliner models, that I put the book back into the box and haven't read any since.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

63t-cab
12-28-2009, 06:38 PM
Tom,good question.I've heard people call Avanti a coupe !

Joseph R. Zeiger

rodnutrandy
12-28-2009, 07:38 PM
My M pickup does not have a pillar between the wing and window when both are open/down. Is it a hardtop ?

Randy Wilkin
1946 M5 Streetrod
Hillsboro,Ohio 45133
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/3637332618_4041c3a834.jpg?v=0

rodnutrandy
12-28-2009, 07:42 PM
My M pickup Does not have a pillar between the wing and window when wing is open and window down,does that make it a hardtop? Just kidding,but that fact does draw a lot of attention at shows.

Randy Wilkin
1946 M5 Streetrod
Hillsboro,Ohio 45133
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/3637332618_4041c3a834.jpg?v=0

Lark Hunter
12-28-2009, 08:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by rodnutrandy

My M pickup does not have a pillar between the wing and window when both are open/down. Is it a hardtop ?


Nope. Just a pickup truck...[|)] LH

Straight from the horse's mouthhttp://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0109.gif

Lark Hunter
12-28-2009, 08:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by rayoung55

And so this would be a???
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc80/rayoung55/Studes/26DuplexPhaeton.jpg

It has Roll Down windows to put them Up. No post between the front and back windows. 1926 EP Big Six Duplex Phaeton.


Demi-sedan. It was essentially a touring car (i.e. side curtains instead of roll up windows, no door frames. etc.) with a permanently affixed top instead of a folding one. It offered most of the weather protection of a regular sedan at less cost. But yeah, it does smack of four door hardtop, don't it? Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, General Motors! LH

Straight from the horse's mouthhttp://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0109.gif

Jeff_H
12-29-2009, 09:31 AM
In my opinion, a "hardtop" has 4 charactoristics:

1. Door(s) do not have frames around the top.
2. There must be a rear side window that rolls down.
3. The roof is fixed.
4. There is no pillar or post between the front and
rear doors that meets the roof.

Thus, when the door and rear window are both rolled down, the
side of the car is completely open from the front to the back.

I am not sure there are any (or many) cars today that meet all
4 of these criteria. In fact, I am not sure there have been
many since the 70s. I suspect side crash safety stds and the
common use of AC have something to do with it.

Jeff in ND
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/ee-engineer/devilstowerthumbnail.jpg
'53 Champion Hardtop

Lark Hunter
12-29-2009, 09:52 AM
I think you're about right on the year, Jeff. If memory serves, big Chrysler cars were the last holdouts in 1978. I haven't seen any hardtops (in the 1950's/60's sense of the word) since then. LH

Straight from the horse's mouthhttp://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/characters/character0109.gif

studegary
12-29-2009, 01:04 PM
Aside from the many hardtop convertible models that are now available, at least Mercedes-Benz makes (for several years now) traditional type hardtops (recent CLK, CL, new E-Series coupe). I am not a M-B fan, but these models have been enticing to me, a lover of real hardtops.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

8E45E
12-29-2009, 01:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jeff_H

In my opinion, a "hardtop" has 4 charactoristics:

1. Door(s) do not have frames around the top.
2. There must be a rear side window that rolls down.
3. The roof is fixed.
4. There is no pillar or post between the front and
rear doors that meets the roof.

Thus, when the door and rear window are both rolled down, the
side of the car is completely open from the front to the back.

I am not sure there are any (or many) cars today that meet all
4 of these criteria.


Best list-of-criteria I've seen yet![^] Indeed, it must be 'E-ALL of the above' to be a true pillarless hardtop.

The only current new cars I'm aware of are:

Mercedes Benz E-Class
Bentley Continental GT
Bentley Brooklands
Rolls Royce Phantom (They do label it a 'Coupe' even though it is a true hardtop.)

Craig

rodnutrandy
12-29-2009, 05:12 PM
Thats one difference in the new Challenger. Origional Challengers were a hardtop, new Challengers are not,they have a pillar.

Randy Wilkin
1946 M5 Streetrod
Hillsboro,Ohio 45133
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/3637332618_4041c3a834.jpg?v=0

8E45E
12-29-2009, 05:21 PM
quote:Originally posted by rodnutrandy

Thats one difference in the new Challenger. Origional Challengers were a hardtop, new Challengers are not,they have a pillar.


Which is too bad as the concept from 2006 was a true hardtop. I was rather disappointed it lost its hardtop status when it became a production model.

Craig

8E45E
03-15-2010, 12:34 AM
At last, I was able to get a photo of a brand new 2010 Bentley 2 door hardtop with all four windows lowered. It was the only hardtop on display at this year's new-car show. The Bentley Brooklands was going be there on the Saturday only, and Mercedes Benz's new E-Class hardtop isn't out until later this year. While I was taking this pic, a 'twenty-something' was asking the salesman how the windows "worked" in this car, presumably to make the seal when they're closed.[:0]

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2864/10505502026_e24dfa7bff_k.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5512/10505452266_c5ef474686_k.jpg

Craig

StudeRich
03-15-2010, 02:23 AM
That is one strange looking car Craig! Definitely a Hardtop alright, but it looks like a 2030 Police Cruiser from some in the future Movie with those ugly Black wheels! [xx(]

Only thing is, I think the price would have to come down maybe $100,000.00 or so for that to EVER happen! :D

It actually has a rather "cheap" look, for such an expensive car. [:0]

StudeRich

PlainBrownR2
03-15-2010, 03:35 AM
Ahhh, the Bentley Continental. A 6.0L W12 with 500 hp and a top speed of 197 mph. Being a Bentley means it has to be very well constructed, as opposed to another particular make that had its bellhousing tolerances change from day to day like the tides.

Also, since it's a Bentley(like Maybach, Bugatti, Lamboghini) most CASO's will NOT be taking these home for free, I can assure you.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

8E45E
03-15-2010, 07:16 AM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich
Definitely a Hardtop alright, but it looks like a 2030 Police Cruiser from some in the future Movie with those ugly Black wheels! [xx(]


With that 12 cylinder engine and the handling to match, it would make for a great cop car!! It will outrun many of the cars on the road today. Just hope your Chief of Police doesn't test-drive one and order a fleet of them and raise your taxes!!:D

Craig

8E45E
03-15-2010, 07:37 AM
quote:Originally posted by PlainBrownR2
Also, since it's a Bentley(like Maybach, Bugatti, Lamboghini) most CASO's will NOT be taking these home for free, I can assure you.


Those cars sell for the same as a small house or a condo here. That same local dealer sells Aston Martin and Spyker besides Bentley. I was told their 2010 Bentley allotment is sold out already, and they have twelve Aston Martins on backorder.

Craig

Milaca
03-15-2010, 10:22 AM
I like that Bentley! It just needs that badging on the grill changed to a lazy S. [8D]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4433339561_ba2ae59231_t.jpg
A wild Red Hawk admiring it's reflection.
In the middle of Minnestudea

klifton1
03-15-2010, 11:04 AM
Don't forget the 55&56 Crown Vics..
Klif

55 Speedster
63 Avanti R2
63 Lark R2

tbredehoft
03-15-2010, 01:01 PM
Don't forget the 55&56 Crown Vics..

They had a humongous chrome B pillar, NOT a hardtop.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Avatar1.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe (since 1959)
'55 President (6H Y6) State Sedan
....On the road, again....
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All Indiana built cars

klifton1
03-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Didn't have solid window frames on the doors.
Klif

55 Speedster
63 Avanti R2
63 Lark R2

8E45E
03-15-2010, 01:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by klifton1

Didn't have solid window frames on the doors.


It still has a 'B' pillar. On those cars, its often called a 'basket handle'.

Craig

raprice
03-15-2010, 02:07 PM
Evidently, a number of you guys didn't grow up in the '50s as I did.
During the '50s, I attended high school and college. Those were the days when "hardtops" gained popularity. As someone mentioned above, they were originally called hardtop convertibles, even though the tops didn't convert. They just had the appearance of convertibles with their tops up. Very simply, you can only call a car a "hardtop" if it doesn't have a B pillar.
One of the most common errors that people make when describing a sedan is when they call it a 2 door or 4 door "Post". This, they were NEVER called. They were just called sedans. Hardtops can either have 2 or 4 doors. A business coupe is just that, a business coupe.
Rog

'59 Lark VI Regal Hardtop
Smithtown,NY
Long Island Studebaker Club

8E45E
03-15-2010, 05:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by raprice

One of the most common errors that people make when describing a sedan is when they call it a 2 door or 4 door "Post". This, they were NEVER called. They were just called sedans. Hardtops can either have 2 or 4 doors. A business coupe is just that, a business coupe.


Then you must remember when a basic 2 door sedan was called a 'coach'.[^]

Craig