have 289, need help

[Stude Ranch]

I purchased a 63 GT hawk about 4 years ago, and was able to buy it because the owner was never able to resolve heating problems. It has a 289 2v and automatic. I wrote to TW and Bob Palma Suggested several things.
So far I have; Re-cored the rad to a new 3 row unit,
removed frost plugs and cleaned block (not really corroded),
new thermostat 180 deg ,
new exhaust system (2in) including R3 headers and new manifold valve
Checked initial timing, petronix ignition modual.
new block heat sender, and cleaned terminals to the heat guage. Checked initial timing as per service manual.
Did not check distributor advance as I don'tknow how or have specks.
It doesn't seem to be heating any more, but to me the problem does not seem to be solved as it seems to labor or be just lazy in the way it runs, and maybe part of the initial heating problem was rooted in some other problem. Compression is between 105 and 115. Don' know if it burns oil, untill I get all engine leaks fixed. So I checked cam lift and timimg per service manual. Lift at the valve measured by a caliper o0n top of the valve was .34 to .35 in. My measurement could be off by .01 or so Book says .36. The service manual tells how to check cam timing and calls for about 12 deg advanced, but mine showed that it started at about 4 deg, just about the mark to do ign timing. Since I was doing main seal for oil leak, I checked the timing dots on the gears to make sure they were correct. I then removed the crank timing gear and advanced the cam by one tooth. As I recall that brought my cam advance to about 23 or so advanced, ( r1 calls for 18 or so). So advance is closer to what it should be ( although the closing of the valves will be maybe a bit early) So it starts and idles better, and has a more lively exhaust sound. I then took ti out and ran it and at speed (I use this term relatine to our 35 year old horse) the results are the same.
Top RPM is 3600 in first gear, on the flat, same for second. 0 to 60 was maybe 18 seconds. 70 MPH was at about 2700, but it feels as though it is beeing really pushed to get this. I didn't do a top speed but I think 90 would be it.
Any one have a HP-Torque-RPM chart for this engine?
Does any one make a higher lift cam? Would it do any good, or is the intake-Exhaust too restrictive?
Is this normal for a 63 Hawk? I have rode in larks, and they seem to be much more responsive. I have driven other 2v carbed engines, and they all seem to go past 4000 fairly willingly. I think the old dodge ('61) 361 had about the same carb, and it reved much easier.
Right now it is in the shop as the trans started jumping out of
drive. Could the trans been dragging the engine down?
Anyway any suggestions would be appreciated. Last resort is I do have a 360 Dodge engine I took out of a Pickup to install a diesel.....(please start throwing rocks-----) I also have 2 BBcaev ingine with the rods out, bu they would be even worse than the stude, becouse at least it runs.
Thanks for bearing with me Sincerely David

[royvaldez]

Studeranch, were are you located?

[DEEPNHOCK]

Changing your cam tooth was a mistake.
(unless it was wrong to begin with and you were moving it to make it right)
Is this a replacement aluminum cam gear?
(I 'heard' that there were a few that had the keyway broached 'slightly' in the wrong position)
Keep your diagnostics basic.
It is not a very scientific engine.
Overthinking it can get you into trouble.
Jeff[8D]

[buddymander]

I always check the compression after I make cam timing changes to be sure I'm not making things worse. If your mechanical advance is malfunctioning, it could certainly limit revs. Are you sure you have the right carb on there and not a 259 one? A lean condition would limit revs and overheat. I put a 360 mopar in my 62 for frustration reasons as well. Just don't go with a large clutch which puts the starter out further interfereing with the steering.

[buddymander]

Oh, and you probaby need fluid in your trans. I believe you really hafta check that one in drive.

[Skinnys Garage]

I would remove the vacuum line from the distributor and use a timing light to watch the advance curve at the timing marks. Starting with your initial setting slowly bring the revs up and see if the advance is working properly at a steady rate. I believe your service manual should give you total advance for your distributor when timing is "all in". If it jumps around badly or doesn't move at all, that could cause some of your power loss. I'm with Jeff on the timing gear move, but anything is possible. Good luck with the diagnosis.


Skinny
Watertown, SD

[gordr]

I'd be looking at the timing, too. Surely there must be some shop in your town that still maintains a distributor test machine; find out where the muscle-car guys get their cars tuned. Ask at your local speed shop. You may also find a shop with a chassis dynamometer, where they can put your car "on the road" in the shop, and tune for maximum performance.

Another possibility might be carb problems that make it run lean at cruise and beyond. That will make it run hot, too.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[PackardV8]

As Jeff said, you're over-thinking this problem. Get a Shop Manual and get every specification up to where it should be.

1. There is NEVER a valid reason for changing the cam-to-crankshaft relationship on a stock Stude. If, in the unlikely event it somehow got a wrongly broached or incorrect cam gear in there, get the correct one.

2. If you checked compression with the camshaft in the correct position and the valves adjusted correctly, then it's simply that the piston rings/cylinder bores are worn. If it has only 105-115 compression that should be a huge red flag. The Shop Manual (Having the Shop Manual is a must!) says that engine should have a minimum of 140# and ideally 160# compression. The difference between 105 and 160 represents a 34% power loss. That's like running on five cylinders.

3. With cars fifty years old, who knows what is really in there? A friend once bought "an R2 Avanti, blower in the trunk", which turned out to have a truck 259" in it with 7.5 compression. Are you certain you have the OEM 289" 2-bbl?

4. Are you certain your tach is accurate? I once fought with an R1 which floated the valves at about 4500 RPMs. Turns out the OEM Stewart-Warner tach was reading low by almost 1,000 RPMs.

Bottom line, even the 289" 2-bbl should pull strongly up to about 3500-4000 RPMs. Torque begins to fall off after that and nothing much good happens above it.

There is no reason a Stude V8 can't be made to perform well. They are dirt-simple to work on, rock-solid reliable and when running as they can, will pull that '63 GT about smartly. It will also make the car more valuable keeping the Studebaker engine. Having done dozens of engine swaps, I can also assure most reading this it is less expensive to fix what you've got. (Pause here for argument from our one or two exceptionally talented and experienced fabricators with a brother-in-law wrecking yard connection.) However, for most CASOs who aren't in that category, fixing the OEM V8 is much less expensive than a swap. Make sure your compression check is accurate. If it is still 105#, then re-ring the engine and do a good valve job. You'll be smiling every time you drive it.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

[Milaca]

My '63 Hawk with 90,XXX miles has a reading of 135-145 when warm and has good power. How many miles are on this engine?


Brent's rootbeer racer.
MN iron ore...it does your body good.

[StudeRich]

I did not see where anyone mentioned that a '63 hawk would have a Prestolite Dist.!! These are notorious for having the worst possible centrifugal weights that self destruct themselves causing poor performance, also shaft bushings with a short life, as well as a vacuum advance that is like all of them...subject to age deterioration. There MAY be serious wear here. [:0]

I am not trying to say that replacing or repairing this will improve your compression, but the two together would make a pretty sick puppy!

StudeRich

[Mike Van Veghten]

Two clues -

1. "it may be lazy in the way it runs"
2. Running hot

Both of these things indicate retarded ignition timing.

That said, with moving the cam around, a retarded cam will also provide lazy running and running hot, espically...if the timing was set to the new numbers..the cam to crank timing is screwd up, so, so most likely is the ignition timing.

The "book" timing numbers are a place to start, not nesessaraly where the engine will run it's best. This normally takes a few more degrees of advance.

Good luck

Mike

[Alan]

Stock Stude cams are retarded 3 cam degrees. That will give you the readings you got. If you want to advance the cam you need a 4 degree cam key. Those can be had from Ted Harbit or Chrysler, but the Chrysler keys are in a set and are expensive if you need only one.

[Bud]

I have a working distributor machine. I can check your distributor for you and let you know if repairs are necessary and what the cost for repairs would be. I also have Prestolite distributors that I've already rebuilt with the improved centrifugal advance weights installed on the shelf if you need one. Bud

[Stude Ranch]

Thanks for the inputs. The distributor does need to be checked.(Thanks StudeRich), and I did find a delco off a 259 that maybe I could swap in to see if that would help. (thanks for the offer Bud) I have resisted in swapping carbs,until I was sure all the other problems were cured. But a lean carb could explain the heating and lack of power. (thanks Gordr)
As for compression we are at 5100 feet elevation and I have never got the recomended compression out of any engine I have tested. Even using different guages. I have driven lots of worn engines with poor compression that still run good. Case in point is a 73 ford 360 that is a habitual oil burner and slated for engine replacement when time allows. It is only used for off road trips around the ranch , every 100 miles or so it needs 3 plugs cleaned as they foul due to carbon on the plugs becouse all the oil burning. I ran a compression test, and the highest I got was 75 pounds. I have been told that they won't even start that low, but remember the old flatheads of the 20's with 4 or 5 to one compression. With clean plugs the 360 runs well, and keeps the mosquitoes away in the summer. remember that compression tests are taken at cranking speed, and that at higher speeds not all that air can escape that quickly. Sure new rings will help, but I really think that compression is not my main problem. A newly overhauled engine is nice, but takes time and money. I have to admit that I am fairly frugal. I have heard that there are some Studebaker owners the same way.
As for the timing issue. True I am grasping at straws here, but the Service Manual does go through how to check cam timing for some reason. Reread the above, the cam was not correct. If I would have been able to find it I had a 5 degree offset key, and if,after advancing the cam 1 tooth, the I could have retarded it 5 with the key and I would have been right the book says I should be . So right now I am off 5 degrees advanced from what the book says. That is closer than a dozen or so retarded. ----REASON-in the first place is I read that in the flathead days,they used to advance the cam 1 tooth-sort of as a poor mans 3/4 cam.
So I tried it with a Fiat x 1/9 that need a timing belt change. I think it was a 75 or 76 model that may have had a cam timing retard due to emmisions. 1 tooth advanced cam timing with a simple belt change. It had a 6500 RPM suggested with a 7000 red line. It went from not being able to acheive the suggested (could not rev the 6500)to pulling right through the 7k redline. Better mileage was reported as well. So I know that on at least some engines cam timing can make a huge difference, and advanced is better that retarded. On the Fiat engine ignition timeing was not changed, as the distributor was not run off the overhead cam. I did re-time the stude.
As for ignition Timing, maybe I should try a little more advance than the service manual suggests. I did check to see if the tming mark correspded with TDC, and it did. Thanks Mike
Packard v8. As for the tach being off, the rear gear is about 3.3 and the tach reads about 2700 at 70. Stock sized tires, I think that is about right. The engine is a "P" with full flow oiling, and about 90 k on the speedo, but which 90? Who knows the the background. I think I noticed somewhere that the specs for a champion 6 were 130 or 140 pounds compression. Is my memory correct on that? Doesn't that seem a little high for an engine with 7 or so to one compression?
By the way Gordr I too am within range of the Alberta Badlands, but as of right now not with a Studebaker.
thanks everyone for the help David

[PackardV8]

At 5100' the static 8.5 compression would drop to 7.48. This equates to 12% reduction or 160# down to 140# compression.

quote:remember that compression tests are taken at cranking speed

and the specs in the Shop Manual specify @ 150 cranking RPM. Lower-than-spec compression is still low compression. The fix for that is new rings, mill the heads to get more compression to compensate for the altitude and a good valve job.

Back to moving cam timing - Comparing moving the cam timing on a smog-tuned OHC Fiat to a '60s Stude is comparing frozen pizza to oranges. The Fiat engineers intentionally de-tuned as a quick fix to pass emissions requirements. Back in the Stude's day, the engineers picked the optimum cam and ignition timing through dynometer testing and road testing for all-around performance and economy. Why would one expect a gear-driven cam to improve by intentionally mis-timing it? (A brief FWIW on cam timing and duration - any improvement in one area has a corresponding drop in another

quote:sort of as a poor mans 3/4 cam

if moving the timing improved horsepower in the higher RPM ranges, there would be a corresponding decrease in low RPM torque. No free lunch in cam timing.)

However, higher altitudes than South Bend and today's fuels may require some experimentation with ignition initial timing and advance. That is the one area some small changes may benefit performance and economy.

Your car, your money, your decision.

thnx, jack vines



PackardV8