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Avanti82
11-16-2009, 11:11 PM
Guys,

I would really appreciate your opinion on what a concours quality ( but high mileage)restored 1963 Avanti R2 would be worth in todays market. I know it would be no where near what a R3 would bring and the only info I have is that a "1" rated car would be worth between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars.

This is the car I need to know about: Is this a 95 pt car or even close. Note the wheels and tires, I think it is a strong "1" but not concours quality.

http://www.connorsmotorcar.com/63Studebaker.html

Thanks for your responses.

Steve

JDP
11-16-2009, 11:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by Avanti82

Guys,

I would really appreciate your opinion on what a concours quality ( but high mileage)restored 1963 Avanti R2 would be worth in todays market. I know it would be no where near what a R3 would bring and the only info I have is that a "1" rated car would be worth between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars.

This is the car I need to know about: Is this a 95 pt car or even close. Note the wheels and tires, I think it is a strong "1" but not concours quality.

http://www.connorsmotorcar.com/63Studebaker.html

Thanks for your responses.

Steve


The paint is much better than factory, and other than the flat black under hood paint appears to be a high point car in the 30K plus range. That paint job would cost 15K alone IMHO.

JDP/Maryland

bige
11-16-2009, 11:34 PM
I don't think that car is even a "2" in the classic sense. I think it's a nice driver # 3 and worth way less than half the asking money.

Side marker lights, poorly recovered seats on a dingy interior, no power steering, metric speedo etc., etc.

Nice driver and cruise night car, kind of what I consider my car to be. My guess $12-15K.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009

Dick Steinkamp
11-16-2009, 11:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by Avanti82
I think it is a strong "1" but not concours quality.



A #1 car is...Excellent. Restored to current maximum professional standards of quality in every area. In a sense it has ceased to be an automobile and has become an object of art. It is transported to shows in an enclosed trailer and when not being shown it is stored in a climate controlled facility. It is not driven. There are very few #1 cars. (In fact, I have never seen a #1 Studebaker of ANY model).

A #2 car is...Fine. Well restored or an extremely well maintained original showing very minimal wear. Except for the very closest inspection a #2 vehicle may appear as a#1. The #2 vehicle will take the top award in many judged shows except when squared off against a #1. It may be driven 800-1000 miles per year.

I'd say the Avanti in the link is a weak #2 or strong #3. OCPG lists a #3 at $12600 and a #2 at $19600...+40% for the R2 option.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/IMG_7215-1.jpg http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/IMG_7216-1.jpg

JDP
11-16-2009, 11:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by bige

I don't think that car is even a "2" in the classic sense. I think it's a nice driver # 3 and worth way less than half the asking money.

Side marker lights, poorly recovered seats on a dingy interior, no power steering, metric speedo etc., etc.

Nice driver and cruise night car, kind of what I consider my car to be. My guess $12-15K.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009


You lost me on interior, it looks fine to me. What's dingy about it ? The steering wheel and dash pad seem exceptionally nice, and the seats look factory. 12-15K ??, I need to buy my 4 speed R2's from you, that's less than market for a car needing paint and more. Any 4 speed Avanti R2 that runs and has hog troughs will bring 12K needing everything else.

JDP/Maryland

bige
11-17-2009, 12:02 AM
Dash and wheel are nice...look at rear carpet driver's side floor and carpet in general looks faded. Close look at the door panels and rear quarter interior panels, armrests front and rear, seat backs especially the tops of the seats where material may have been pieced in, black knobbed window cranks, a clock from ???? that looks like the hole may have been enlarged to fit it in the dash..

Did early cars come without side chrome on the console or is this one just missing? And, what's the extra arm on the steering column? Not a tilt wheel...horn or add on blinkers?

Even the bumpers look like they need to be re-done. Front is wavy and unless I'm seeing dirt the back needs a re-chrome.

Remember, I am picking at it as a supposed number one or number two car.

I wouldn't argue pricing with you because you are more in touch with the market but I think the car is a nice paint job on a so-so car.



http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009

bams50
11-17-2009, 12:07 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

That paint job would cost 15K alone IMHO.



Seller said in the listing that it cost $20K[:0] I need to get back into doing paint work...

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag1-1.gif
GOD BLESS AMERICA

JDP
11-17-2009, 12:12 AM
quote:Originally posted by bige

Dash and wheel are nice...look at rear carpet driver's side floor and carpet in general looks faded. Close look at the door panels and rear quarter interior panels, armrests front and rear, seat backs especially the tops of the seats where material may have been pieced in, black knobbed window cranks, a clock from ???? that looks like the hole may have been enlarged to fit it in the dash..

Did early cars come without side chrome on the console or is this one just missing? And, what's the extra arm on the steering column? Not a tilt wheel...horn or add on blinkers?

Remember, I am picking at it as a supposed number one or number two car.



http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009


Faded carpet is not a big deal, with new sets costing $350, the car is not a 400 point car with some minor wear on the interior. I agree about the clock replacement, but look at the gauges and bezels. That's a $1500 gauge restoration bill you don't need. The car is not flawless, maybe not a 40K car at retail, but 30K would be ballpark.
I sold a similar car without the show paint for 27K last year, and it had some minor issues too. The paint on the posted Avanti is just stunning.

JDP/Maryland

JDP
11-17-2009, 12:14 AM
quote:Originally posted by bams50


quote:Originally posted by JDP

That paint job would cost 15K alone IMHO.



Seller said in the listing that it cost $20K[:0] I need to get back into doing paint work...

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag1-1.gif
GOD BLESS AMERICA




That sounds possible, Sid the GT Hawk's job was 11K, and that's a steel body.

JDP/Maryland

PlainBrownR2
11-17-2009, 12:21 AM
I'll let the metric speedo pass, as the destination was Trieste, Italy :D!! I'd like to know what that arm is for too, as the PO isn't giving up very much. The only thing I can think of is Option #63 might have something to do with it. A chrome handle instead of a footpedal.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

bige
11-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Do you think those side marker lights were installed because of Italian requirements? I know that many European countries require a blinker light on that side.

Next part of the question...if you are not European and think they look like cheap JC Whitney add-ons how much do you deduct for a $15,000 paint job that needs two fenders repaired?

ErnieR

JDP
11-17-2009, 12:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by PlainBrownR2

I'll let the metric speedo pass, as the destination was Trieste, Italy :D!! I'd like to know what that arm is for too, as the PO isn't giving up very much. The only thing I can think of is Option #63 might have something to do with it. A chrome handle instead of a footpedal.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]




Option 63 is windshield washers. It looks like a Lark shift lever hooked up to something. Might be just a switch strapped to the column column to blink the high beams for passing in Italy.

Thomas63R2
11-17-2009, 12:29 AM
I dig the extra pint of paint from the factory that went with the car on its trip to Italy.

It does look like a nice Avanti. As nice as it is, and it is really nice, it is not a #1 car. Its painful to say that because it presents itself well in the pictures. Some naysayers may doubt that $20k was spent on paint, but I've seen it done when you include all the body work and hours spent doing it over and over until it has jewel like transistions from panel to panel. Too bad that they painted the engine compartment black - makes me wonder about the restoration. For a $20 large paint and body repair bill I would also have expected some rehaping of the doors to correct the factory goof of having the lower rear portions of the door stick out.

Thomas

bige
11-17-2009, 12:38 AM
You would also need to have the area below the grill painted red instead of flat black!

I think the car is a beautiful paint job attached to a nice car. If the buyer wants to build a high point show car maybe he's ahead a little but there's still a lot of time and I think money to be spent and he shouldn't pay too much for this car.

If the buyer wants a nice Avanti with a 4 speed that he will rarely drive on the highway, wants to impress at the local cruises and needs to build up his biceps while driving than maybe the car needs nothing else and you pay a little more.

I never thought of high beam for the arm on the column, I bet that's what it is.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009

JDP
11-17-2009, 12:45 AM
quote:Originally posted by bige

Do you think those side marker lights were installed because of Italian requirements? I know that many European countries require a blinker light on that side.

Next part of the question...if you are not European and think they look like cheap JC Whitney add-ons how much do you deduct for a $15,000 paint job that needs two fenders repaired?

ErnieR


Maybe $500 to fill the small wire holes and blend the paint. I paid $600 to do one entire side of the Survivor Avanti and they blended clear coat/color cost over the factory paint so close you could not see the blend. Again, not saying the car is perfect, but I'd pay 25K in a heartbeat unless I'm missing something. BTW, here's the paint blend on my Avanti that I had to do when the owner had the door painted the wrong shade.

Before
http://stude.com/before.jpg

After
http://stude.com/after.jpg

JDP/Maryland

JDP
11-17-2009, 12:49 AM
quote:Originally posted by bige

You would also need to have the area below the grill painted red instead of flat black!

I think the car is a beautiful paint job attached to a nice car. If the buyer wants to build a high point show car maybe he's ahead a little but there's still a lot of time and I think money to be spent and he shouldn't pay too much for this car.

If the buyer wants a nice Avanti with a 4 speed that he will rarely drive on the highway, wants to impress at the local cruises and needs to build up his biceps while driving than maybe the car needs nothing else and you pay a little more.

I never thought of high beam for the arm on the column, I bet that's what it is.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009



BTW, speaking of headlights, check out those lamps, some serious wattage there.

JDP/Maryland

bige
11-17-2009, 12:56 AM
The right paint guy can do wonders. I had the quarter and trunk re-shot on my 76 Chrysler and the match is perfect.

I'm still a little surprised you would pay 25K for that car. It even needs a front bumper center section!

BTW, I forgot how beautiful that '64 survivor was. Those wire caps change the look of the car but also look so good they should have been the standard cap.

ErnieR

candbstudebakers
11-17-2009, 01:02 AM
The black interior does look dingy but some times black can give that look, do you think the exhaust pipes shoot flames not cool on an Avanti, that is part of what make the rear end of an Avanti look like a bad dude, not 2 into 4 pipes, should be an easy $20,000.00 maybe not in today's market..Bob

Bob Peterson / C & B Studebakers

Castro Valley, CA
canbstudebakers-
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv271/canbstudebakers/CedarRapids210.jpg

JDP
11-17-2009, 01:09 AM
quote:Originally posted by bige

The right paint guy can do wonders. I had the quarter and trunk re-shot on my 76 Chrysler and the match is perfect.

I'm still a little surprised you would pay 25K for that car. It even needs a front bumper center section!

BTW, I forgot how beautiful that '64 survivor was. Those wire caps change the look of the car but also look so good they should have been the standard cap.

ErnieR



That's how I make a living, you think it's a 12-15K car, if I find a owner that would sell me a car like that at that price, I think I could put a few grand in it, and make a tidy profit.

JDP/Maryland

PlainBrownR2
11-17-2009, 01:11 AM
Interesting item on console, which tells me that it's owner was European alright(drives for the experience rather than just a simple point A to point B), the radio's not installed. There's an Avanti Radio Delete Plate(call it what you want, lol) installed instead of a radio.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

bige
11-17-2009, 01:22 AM
I know John and that's why I wouldn't truly argue a price point with you. In fact, if I was faced with purchasing a car like that you would be the first person I would ask for direction.

But it's fun to toss opinions back and forth...

ErnieR


quote:

That's how I make a living, you think it's a 12-15K car, if I find a owner that would sell me a car like that at that price, I think I could put a few grand in it, and make a tidy profit.

JDP/Maryland



http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009

JDP
11-17-2009, 01:25 AM
quote:Originally posted by bige

I know John and that's why I wouldn't truly argue a price point with you. In fact, if I was faced with purchasing a car like that you would be the first person I would ask for direction.

But it's fun to toss opinions back and forth...

ErnieR


quote:

That's how I make a living, you think it's a 12-15K car, if I find a owner that would sell me a car like that at that price, I think I could put a few grand in it, and make a tidy profit.

JDP/Maryland



http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009


Yep, and the rest of the forum may well decide to pick a value somewhere in the middle.:)

JDP/Maryland

PlainBrownR2
11-17-2009, 01:36 AM
About the lamps, Europe used different standards than the US did when it came to headlamps(they were tons brighter). The headlamp may very well be a conversion to H4 headlamps, instead of having the US sealed beams. The sad part is the only way to know that is to look at the headlamp itself to see if its Hella, Cibie, etc.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010531-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/P1010550-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

Avantidon
11-17-2009, 07:26 AM
Ernie the only true way to determine the value of this car is #1 go inspect it and then make an offer. This car is actually in the AOAI roster and is regestered to a firm in FLA. The car is located in West Chester PA about a 2-3 hour ride for you if you don't get lost. he also had a 63 Daytona Convertible that we checked out qhich was nice but over priced. "Cars That matter" Dave Kinney's pric guide tells me this car pending inspection has a value of $25-30K tops. Pictures are a wonderful thing but a first hand look at a car like this is a must. Then the actual price is what a willing buyer is willing to pay a willing seller. Saw the car before and JP's estimate is what I'd pay.

Avanti82
11-17-2009, 09:43 AM
quote:Originally posted by Avantidon

Ernie the only true way to determine the value of this car is #1 go inspect it and then make an offer. This car is actually in the AOAI roster and is regestered to a firm in FLA. The car is located in West Chester PA about a 2-3 hour ride for you if you don't get lost. he also had a 63 Daytona Convertible that we checked out qhich was nice but over priced. "Cars That matter" Dave Kinney's pric guide tells me this car pending inspection has a value of $25-30K tops. Pictures are a wonderful thing but a first hand look at a car like this is a must. Then the actual price is what a willing buyer is willing to pay a willing seller. Saw the car before and JP's estimate is what I'd pay.


Many thanks Guys, lots of good info here already. I had already sent an email to the Dealer indicating that I would buy the car for $25,000 cash if it checked out OK and he refused that offer. That is why I wanted to get some opinions from all of you before I went higher. I have requested additional photos and a list of all work done. I am not much inclined to go above $29,000 at this point.

Also I almost forgot to add, does the fact that it has Italian mods on it decrease or increase it's value.

Thanks again,

Steve

bige
11-17-2009, 10:23 AM
I wouldn't have to go see the car to determine if it's a #1 I can tell very quickly by the pictures it isn't. An inspection would reveal what level #3 that car is.

To me that car was dressed to sell. It is poorly detailed, needs bumpers, carpet, paintwork in spite of the 15K paintjob ( lower front valence and fenders where the side maker lights are ), probably a new dash fascia, a clock, lots of detail work on the engine, ( just look at the plumbing on the dual master cylinder and you have to wonder how many other "upgrades" were done in the same fashion ) trim over the passenger side window properly positioned...I could go on just from the pictures.

Besides the fact that it's an early car with no power steering and a 4.09 rear. Not a good highway car and heavy handed around town. The road tests of the day showed that an auto equpped 3.73 R2 was quicker in the 1/4 mile and that they felt the 4 speed ratios were poorly matched to the engines torque curve.

These pictures tell more by what's not shown than what is. Lots of looks at the paint and the mediocre recover on the seats. No headliner or undercarriage. I'm really hard pressed to see the value in this car.

This car is a "Cougar" Avanti. Lots of makeup for a night out but up close in the morning light you'll be sorry you paid $29,000 for that car. I'd rather have this one that I would bet a beer ( or two ) doesn't crack 20K.:D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140359387553


Of course, if I was remotely interested in the car my heart would overcome my brain and I would be writing a check and then rationalizing my poor decision later. All the while trying to convince most of the Stude world that the lights on the fenders make it rare because it is an Italian Avanti.

Hey! I could also answer yes when I'm asked if it's Italian by the general public.

ErnieR



quote:
Originally posted by Avantidon

Ernie the only true way to determine the value of this car is #1 go inspect it and then make an offer. This car is actually in the AOAI roster and is regestered to a firm in FLA. The car is located in West Chester PA about a 2-3 hour ride for you if you don't get lost. he also had a 63 Daytona Convertible that we checked out qhich was nice but over priced. "Cars That matter" Dave Kinney's pric guide tells me this car pending inspection has a value of $25-30K tops. Pictures are a wonderful thing but a first hand look at a car like this is a must. Then the actual price is what a willing buyer is willing to pay a willing seller. Saw the car before and JP's estimate is what I'd pay.


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track-2-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/4247h2c_20-1.jpg
Island Dragway, Great Meadows, NJ Summer 2009

Avanti82
11-17-2009, 11:33 AM
Guys,

I have given this car a lot more thought and I have advised the dealer that I am no longer interested in purchasing the car.

You guys were a tremendous help and noticed a lot of things that I did not.

thanks again,

Steve

JDP
11-17-2009, 12:32 PM
quote:[i

This car is a "Cougar" Avanti. Lots of makeup for a night out but up close in the morning light you'll be sorry you paid $29,000 for that car. I'd rather have this one that I would bet a beer ( or two ) doesn't crack 20K.:D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140359387553





Again, we look at cars differently. The linked Avanti does not run, needs paint and body work, the power windows are froze up and it'll need brakes and a lot more. Even at 15K, you be over 30K in to get it in the shape of your "Cougar" even without spending 20K for paint. I do agree the liked Avanti should not break 20K, the Cougar is still worth the 25K offered but turned down IMHO.

JDP/Maryland

Avantidon
11-17-2009, 12:38 PM
VIN# for this car is R1465. Folks in FLA who have some involvement in this car are Motorcar Gallery Inc. These are the people who returned the car from Italy to the US. Don't know if this is a help or not but I do have doubts about lots of things here. Steve glad you got a response to your e-mail because trying to get a return phone call is like pulling hens teeth. Enough said.

Guido
11-17-2009, 02:33 PM
If you are interested in a R-2 4 speed Avanti, I would be willing to sell mine. It is a late production '64 (serial # 5400) that is maroon in color.

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/9/36/86/2567936860097493054TXiheL_th.jpgGuido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful" and real Studebaker horsepower lives

See pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/GuidoSalvage

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

Avanti82
11-17-2009, 03:01 PM
quote:Originally posted by Guido

If you are interested in a R-2 4 speed Avanti, I would be willing to sell mine. It is a late production '64 (serial # 5400) that is maroon in color.

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/9/36/86/2567936860097493054TXiheL_th.jpgGuido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful" and real Studebaker horsepower lives

See pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/GuidoSalvage

Gary,

Thanks for the response but I am looking for a restored car at this time.

Regards

Steve

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

jlmccuan
11-17-2009, 05:47 PM
I wonder what the temp gauge replacing the clock goes to? Is the engine temp gauge inoperable or did they want a Celsius register? Maybe oil or trans temp?

Jim
Often in error, never in doubt
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/AvantiSignature.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/DSCF4389.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/Logo/RabidSnailSignature.jpg
____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

studegary
11-17-2009, 09:40 PM
It has been a lot of years since I drove an Avanti without power steering and I would not like to do it again.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Thomas63R2
11-18-2009, 02:37 AM
Steve, asking a group about a purchase decision in a public forum is always a double edged sword: the group can have great knowledge - but the group can do such a good job of protectiong you that no car is ever good enough or priced right.

You are specifically looking for a restored car vs. a project, so the linked '64 is out of the question - yet there is an interesting value equation from comparing the two Avantis. One of the problems with the old car hobby/disease is that do it yourself enthusiasts quite frequently discount how expensive or time consuming it is to make a project car nice. Listen carefully when JDP says that the buyer of the the project '64 will have more than $30K into the car BEFORE paint to get it into the condition of the already restored Avanti. High level paint and body work can make your wallet cry - it is worth paying a premium for a car with an outstanding paint finish. When an experienced buyer/reseller like JDP says he would pay $25k for the car, it is good to keep in mind that he would tend to a few details and then sell it for MORE. To buy this Avanti at $25k would probably be a great deal, but even in the low $30's it is still probably a good deal. Just please promise that you will personally inspect a car before you hand over that money, don't buy any car based on digital photos before you have it shipped to your home.

Patience may help you land the restored Avanti, Recontact the dealer in a couple of months or so, and provided that they still have the car, ask them to reconsider their pricing. When a car remains unsold the dealer may be more motivated to move it, and put the money into another car that may sell more quickly and profitably. Outside of resellers like JDP who have figured out the Studebaker market, I would venture that most classics dealers end up being disappointed by slow selling Studebakers vs. other hot selling classics out of the same era. this will usually only happen once to a classics dealer who discovers that while it is true that well finished Camaros or Mustangs etc sell briskly in the $35k to $40k range, that this is not true for Avantis. A little while back there was an eBay Avanti on which was the subject of a $92k restoration. It was refinished to a very high level, high quality leather interior with a restomod flavor. Repeatedly it failed to meet reserve while bidding stalled out in the low $40k range. I'm sure the seller was disappointed - but the market for Avantis beyond $35k is very thin. Meanwhile, for a guy like you who wants a beautiful car to enjoy, without embarking on a lengthy restoration, this is exactly the kind of Avanti that you should be considering.

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

Avanti82
11-18-2009, 07:49 AM
quote:Originally posted by Avantidon


VIN# for this car is R1465. Folks in FLA who have some involvement in this car are Motorcar Gallery Inc. These are the people who returned the car from Italy to the US. Don't know if this is a help or not but I do have doubts about lots of things here. Steve glad you got a response to your e-mail because trying to get a return phone call is like pulling hens teeth. Enough said.


Thanks for that information. We bought our 1982 Avanti from Tom Clark at Motorcar Gallery and I have nothing but good things to say about him. We love the 82 and it is a very nice car and was represented accurately. He was a real pleasure to deal with. I may eventually give Tom a call about the other car.

Steve

Avanti82
11-18-2009, 07:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

It has been a lot of years since I drove an Avanti without power steering and I would not like to do it again.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY
SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer


Gary, I could not agre more. I was a real dummy and so focused on the paint that I did not even notice that the car had no power steering.[:I]

That was one of the primary reasons I decided against buying the car and advised Carlos (the Dealer).

By the way Carlos seems to be a very nice person based on my emails with him.

Steve

Avanti82
11-18-2009, 08:07 AM
Thomas,

Thanks for your comments and insight. I really have to depend on all of you guys here on the forum when it comes to Avantis as I am not a car mechanic and currently have no time to learn. I know aircraft and can drive rivets, do fabric work and electrical, I am also a pretty fair painter, I painted the Royal Air Force scheme on te L-4, but it is totally different than working on a car.

I think your comments about having patience and going back to the Dealer at a later time could prove productive. I really want an R2 to take to shows along with my wife in her 82 Avanti, I think they would make a great combo. Currently we take the 2010 Shelby GT500 and the Avanti. The 2010 Mustang is a great car and fun to drive it just has no soul or the appeal of a true Classic. I have a true love of old aircraft and cars.

Best Regards

Steve

barnlark
11-18-2009, 08:14 AM
Steve, do you have your heart set on only a R2 Avanti? Is a R1 with new paint out of the question?

TOMMO
11-18-2009, 11:48 AM
Keep in mind the 2 most relevant factors (other than hog troughs) when pricing an R2 Avanti....

1) Its a 4 speed +10% easy
2) Its a 1964 with 42 running improvements over 1963 +20%

Plus the fact that is one of the best colors for showing off the race inspired lines of the body. White and gold dont have the same impact to many potential owners.

$29,000 seems somewhere in the neighborhood, either up or down, depending on who is looking for one.

Avanti82
11-18-2009, 06:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by barnlark

Steve, do you have your heart set on only a R2 Avanti? Is a R1 with new paint out of the question?


Hey Dave,

I wanted a nice R2 but am considering a couple of R1 Avantis as well. We already have one so it would have to be a really nice car at a great price.

Thanks

steve

stugatsr2
11-19-2009, 01:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by Avanti82

Guys,

I would really appreciate your opinion on what a concours quality ( but high mileage)restored 1963 Avanti R2 would be worth in todays market. I know it would be no where near what a R3 would bring and the only info I have is that a "1" rated car would be worth between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars.

This is the car I need to know about: Is this a 95 pt car or even close. Note the wheels and tires, I think it is a strong "1" but not concours quality.

http://www.connorsmotorcar.com/63Studebaker.html

Thanks for your responses.

Steve

stugatsr2
11-19-2009, 01:36 PM
hello steve.I have a 63 r2 avanti with auto.it is white ext.original paintwith red int.
if interested email me [stugats820@gmail.com]for some pics.& more info.tks.jnp

Avanti82
11-19-2009, 05:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by stugatsr2

hello steve.I have a 63 r2 avanti with auto.it is white ext.original paintwith red int.
if interested email me [stugats820@gmail.com]for some pics.& more info.tks.jnp


Email sent, thank you.

Bob Caser
11-20-2009, 04:23 AM
Note was made in a earlier about a radio delete plate.
It is the first one that I have ever seen.
Please note there is not an antenna on this Avanti as well. Curious though is that it has all the stainless ignition shielding installed.

If this were a Corvette with a radio delete , the factory would not have supplied the shielding, as it would not have been necessary.
No radio, no ignition interference.

This is an unusual car.

mrbobinc

jimmijim8
11-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Steve, just cause a seller has a high price for a car doesn't automatically guarantee that the car is worth the bucks. He may be trying to sell a 15,000 for twice the amount for any number of reasons. A very nice Avanti can be had from anywhere to anywhere price. I saw a beautiful Avanti II go for just over 8 Grand because the buying pool didn't care for the color of the original great looking factory paint and interior. Had it been red or whatever would probably brought over 12. Remember two things when shopping for another car. "Good things come to those whom wait" ,"There's a seat for every asse and an asse for every seat". jimmijim

Stude Junkie+++++++Do it right the f$$$$ Time. Never mind. Just do it right. When youre done your done. You'll know it.

fmarshall
11-20-2009, 02:07 PM
My R2 is a 4-speed, manual steering (it ain't that bad - and it saves power), manual windows. It's in as good of condition as that car, has new carpet, fresh two-stage paint, new stainless steel exhaust, and more, and I will sell it for less than that guy wants. If you are interested, send me an e-mail.

========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/fmarshall_bucket/sigpic.jpg

Thomas63R2
11-21-2009, 12:29 AM
I'm glad that fmarshall replied about his manual steering Avanti not being that bad. Power steering is nicer, but manual steering usually only needs a driver readjustment. A manual steering car has many differences other than the power steering pump: like a different ratio steering box and different fulcrum points for the linkage. Probably many people assume a manual steering car is like power steering car with a dead power steering pump - which would of course be awful. Until you have driven a manual steering car, do not automatically write them off as being difficult to drive. The one thing about manual steering is that you need is some rolling movement of the car before cranking the steering - because turning the steering wheel on a manual steering car when it is at a complete dead stop IS a bit of work.

Changing out the 4.09 gears, if it hasn't already been changed for 3.73's or numerically lower, would be a good idea. Given the total cost of a quality differential re-gearing of ~ $800, that would be a nominal expense compared with the cost and value of the car.

Thomas

Skip Lackie
11-21-2009, 08:27 AM
quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2

I'm glad that fmarshall replied about his manual steering Avanti not being that bad. Power steering is nicer, but manual steering usually only needs a driver readjustment. A manual steering car has many differences other than the power steering pump: like a different ratio steering box and different fulcrum points for the linkage. Probably many people assume a manual steering car is like power steering car with a dead power steering pump - which would of course be awful. Until you have driven a manual steering car, do not automatically write them off as being difficult to drive. The one thing about manual steering is that you need is some rolling movement of the car before cranking the steering - because turning the steering wheel on a manual steering car when it is at a complete dead stop IS a bit of work.

Changing out the 4.09 gears, if it hasn't already been changed for 3.73's or numerically lower, would be a good idea. Given the total cost of a quality differential re-gearing of ~ $800, that would be a nominal expense compared with the cost and value of the car.

Thomas

I agree. I have owned three fairly heavy vehicles without power steering for more than 30 years -- a 37 LaSalle, 54 Stude 3R6 pickup, and 62 Impala -- and have never had much trouble parking them. I also have owned two Larks with inoperative power steering and found them to be both imprecise and very difficult to park (until I repaired the p/s). I know vehicles with a lot of options are worth more money, but those without power accessories are often more fun to drive.

Skip Lackie
Washington DC

Thomas63R2
11-21-2009, 07:42 PM
Okay, I know it is a '64 and not a '63 but in the question of value vs. price this one,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1964-Studebaker-Avanti-Supercharged-R2-12-764-miles_W0QQitemZ140359387553QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item20ae1249a1
makes the '63 R2 in question look reasonable.

Thomas

Bob Caser
11-21-2009, 08:06 PM
If I were buying a car based upon the photos shown, I would pay more money for the '63.
I like the radio delete and other options ,and the fact that it was ordered to the buyers specs and shipped to Italy.



mrbobinc

studegary
11-22-2009, 09:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2

I'm glad that fmarshall replied about his manual steering Avanti not being that bad. Power steering is nicer, but manual steering usually only needs a driver readjustment. A manual steering car has many differences other than the power steering pump: like a different ratio steering box and different fulcrum points for the linkage. Probably many people assume a manual steering car is like power steering car with a dead power steering pump - which would of course be awful. Until you have driven a manual steering car, do not automatically write them off as being difficult to drive. The one thing about manual steering is that you need is some rolling movement of the car before cranking the steering - because turning the steering wheel on a manual steering car when it is at a complete dead stop IS a bit of work.


Thomas


In general, I agree with your statement. The majority of the 50+ Studebakers that I have owned had manual steering. When people complain about manual steering it usually just means that something isn't correct or properly lubricated.
However, I was not speaking in general, but rather the specific case of a Studebaker Avanti factory built with manual steering. I find them to be terrible to drive. I would guess that most here, even those somewhat familiar with Avantis, have never driven one in regular use.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

HNCadet
11-22-2009, 10:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Avanti82

Guys,

I would really appreciate your opinion on what a concours quality ( but high mileage)restored 1963 Avanti R2 would be worth in todays market. I know it would be no where near what a R3 would bring and the only info I have is that a "1" rated car would be worth between 25,000 and 30,000 dollars.

This is the car I need to know about: Is this a 95 pt car or even close. Note the wheels and tires, I think it is a strong "1" but not concours quality.

http://www.connorsmotorcar.com/63Studebaker.html

Thanks for your responses.

Steve


Have you actually talked to the people at Connors? They've been sitting on that piece of iron for quite some time. Might try at least a few low-ball offers to open up a line of communication. Connor seems to always have a nice Avanti on a yearly basis, so they probably know more about the marque than most "Classic Car" shops. As for the prices, well recall the value of our $$$ is rapidly diminishing as our vaunted leadership continues to print $$$$ and supply them in vast quantities to Banks & Brokerage houses. I don't believe we can hang on to our older pre-2007 price levels and see prices rising +10% yearly, look what's happened to Gold this year.

Thomas63R2
11-23-2009, 11:00 AM
Chuck, don't worry if you missed the gold train, that bubble will pop too. Unless the rest of the world decides that even AFTER all the U.S. tax rates rise and tax revenue does not increase THEN it is all over and the gold bugs will be rewarded. That would also mean that the Chinese have stopped lending back (buying our bonds) to the U.S. If/when that day comes, just make sure you have some land to plant your home farm.

Classic cars are not a completely historically great place to be socking investment money. Buy it because you like it and want it, pay what you think it is worth and enjoy it any way you can. One of the drivers of the U.S. values of some collector cars is when overseas buyers look at the exchange rates and decide our collector cars are a bargain - but I don't see too many Studes hitting the big auction houses that cater to an international clientele.

Thomas