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rusty nut garage
10-10-2009, 12:24 AM
Is anyone running the Turner 4 wheel disc brake conversion??
If so I'd like to bend your ear via a phone call or email.
Thanks
Russ

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Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

bige
10-10-2009, 09:28 AM
I have it on my Avanti. Cell is 201-738-0851.

There was a lengthy thread on the subject

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30431

but don't hesitate to call.

Ernie R

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-10-2009, 11:45 AM
Thanks for the archived post that helps tremendously.
I've got a customers 53 coupe running the Turner 4 wheel disc, no power brakes running a 1inch bore drum/drum master cylinder MC #56193. The brakes have to be pumped if the car sets for a few days and even when pumped the pedal is low and spongy. I'll check into the adjustment of the rear GM calipers and the mc compatibility. Most everyone recommends the disc/disc mc for this setup, but the turner kit doesn't have issue with running the disc/drum setup.
I've checked the pressure at the MC its #1000psi. If I plug either front or rear I have a nice pedal feel.
I'll keep working at it and let you know, thanks again for the help.
Russ

quote:Originally posted by bige

I have it on my Avanti. Cell is 201-738-0851.

There was a lengthy thread on the subject

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30431

but don't hesitate to call.

Ernie R

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 09:54 AM
Well this thing is officially kicking my butt!
Changed the mc to the recommended Mitsubishi type. Fits real neat and if your interested in running a remote fill this is the master cylinder to use. Its a 1" bore originally used for 4 wheel disc, so fluid volume should be sufficient. I've bleed this thing so many ways I need brake fluid in a 55 gal drum:D I'm still experiencing pedal all the way to the floor that will eventually pump up but still too close to the floor for my liking. If I fully close the rear proportioning valve I have good hard pedal. If I close off the front by clamping the front hoses or capping the master cylinder I get good firm pedal, (same symptoms I had prior to working on the car but even lower pedal then before. I would be tempted to try a 1 1/8" cylinder but plenty of folks are running the 1" without problems. Not sure where to go from here, I've got a pressure bleeder but I'll have to have an adapter made to fit the remote cylinder in order to use it.
Anybody have any good ideas or practical experience let me know.
Prior to the master cylinder replacement I did find that the GM rear calipers were'nt adjusting correctly, I was hoping that would help but no [xx(]
Russ
(no profit in this job)
[quote]Originally posted by rusty nut garage

Thanks for the archived post that helps tremendously.
I've got a customers 53 coupe running the Turner 4 wheel disc, no power brakes running a 1inch bore drum/drum master cylinder MC #56193. The brakes have to be pumped if the car sets for a few days and even when pumped the pedal is low and spongy. I'll check into the adjustment of the rear GM calipers and the mc compatibility. Most everyone recommends the disc/disc mc for this setup, but the turner kit doesn't have issue with running the disc/drum setup.
I've checked the pressure at the MC its #1000psi. If I plug either front or rear I have a nice pedal feel.
I'll keep working at it and let you know, thanks again for the help.
Russ

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

41 Frank
10-22-2009, 10:43 AM
Do you have residual pressure valves installed in the system?

bige
10-22-2009, 11:00 AM
Get rid of the prop valve. I couldn't get a pedal with the valve installed. Every car is different but my avanti stops straight from 90 with no valve.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Yes car has residual 2# valves installed.
Why having a prop valve installed would be causing low pedal makes no sense, but I'm at wits end. I'll try this when I get home tonight.
I have a couple extra residual valves I may try to swap too. Things are past making sense on this project so I'll try anything ;)
Thx
Russ

quote:Originally posted by bige

Get rid of the prop valve. I couldn't get a pedal with the valve installed. Every car is different but my avanti stops straight from 90 with no valve.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

bige
10-22-2009, 12:07 PM
Do you need the residual valves because the master is below the calipers?

The problem I had with the adj. valve was that it imited pressure to the rear calipers to 600 even wide open. I stopped trying to figure out why when I got things working without it.

The other thing I noticed was that the pedal felt better on the road than on the jackstands. Once I got it to whre I believed the car would stop I was anxiuos to drive it because the brake job was part of an axle conversion, rear end rebuild and transmission mod. I had so many things I needed to check that I was OK with a short test drive with a spongy pedal. Once I was on the road the brakes felt nice and all I had to do was adjust the emergency brake cable. Been driving it that way since and a couple of 1/4 passes confirmed the stopping power.

Good luck!

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Master cylinder is mounted in the stock configuration on the frame.
The pedal on initial actuation goes to the floor. If you pump it the pedal will get firm but only 2in from the floor. If I block off either front or rear I get a good firm pedal feel much like a stock manual brake car. It's sure looking like a fluid volume issue to me, but I hesitate to go that route because this MC is the recommended for this conversion. It acts like air in the lines but I sure don't know how that could be, and the fact that either circuit isolated will cause a good pedal would indicate air in both circuits?. Its got me baffled!

quote:Originally posted by bige

Do you need the residual valves because the master is below the calipers?

The problem I had with the adj. valve was that it imited pressure to the rear calipers to 600 even wide open. I stopped trying to figure out why when I got things working without it.

The other thing I noticed was that the pedal felt better on the road than on the jackstands. Once I got it to whre I believed the car would stop I was anxiuos to drive it because the brake job was part of an axle conversion, rear end rebuild and transmission mod. I had so many things I needed to check that I was OK with a short test drive with a spongy pedal. Once I was on the road the brakes felt nice and all I had to do was adjust the emergency brake cable. Been driving it that way since and a couple of 1/4 passes confirmed the stopping power.

Good luck!

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

ST2DE5
10-22-2009, 12:52 PM
I had one here similar to that come to find out the wheel cylinders were on the wrong side. Jut a thought.


7G-Q1 49 2R12 10G-F5 56B-D4 56B-F2

bige
10-22-2009, 12:59 PM
I adjusted the rear calipers up as tightly as I could. Do you have the e brake cables on and adjusted? I'm not familiar with the car you' re working on but how about the pushrod length to the mc?

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 01:48 PM
E-brake is adjusted and working, when I received the car from the owner the e-brake wasn't adjusted correctly. That gained us a little bit of pedal with the initial master cylinder. The problem all along has been if the car sits for any period, day or more the pedal had to be pumped to get it back to normal. Normal in this case was a low pedal in my opinion. However I may have to live with this lower then normal pedal with this disc/disc upgrade I just don't have any first hand experience on the conversion to know.If it didn' have the extreme low pedal on initial actuation I could live with the lower but firm pedal
. Owner had been driving it this way for a couple of years. He reported that it always stopped well.
He is getting ready to take the car into the body shop for some touch up work and is concerned the body shop employees might jump in and not test the brakes. they'll go to move the car and not knowing they'll run into something. He spoke to Turner and at this point he suggested the Mitsubishi mc.
The owner commented that we initially put the upgraded 4 wheel disc that he had great difficulty in getting the mc push rod adjusted. I've adjusted the push rod "loose" so I wouldn't have a drag problem. I'll try adjusting it out and "sneak" up on getting and see if that helps.
Thanks for the help, Last few night I've been ready to "tap out" this thing has me kicked :(
Russ

quote:Originally posted by bige

I adjusted the rear calipers up as tightly as I could. Do you have the e brake cables on and adjusted? I'm not familiar with the car you' re working on but how about the pushrod length to the mc?

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

winchesterhawk
10-22-2009, 02:11 PM
Really check the calipers for any loss of fluid.Ive had calipers that once the car sat overnight would seep enough to allow air in the system. Replace calipers, problem gone.

bige
10-22-2009, 02:16 PM
Saw this on the Master Power Brake site...http://www.mpbrakes.com/uploads/documents/lowdrag.pdf

You never know?

Good info on their site if you haven't visited there.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 02:22 PM
Man you may have just made my whole day. this is exactly what is happening
Now just to figure out how I can get calipers that aren't low drag

How do you physically check if your calipers are low drag?
To check if your caliper is low drag perform the following test. Obtain a pair of brake hose clamps at an auto
parts store. Try the pedal as it is and then clamp off the two front hoses. If the pedal returns and is high and firm
chances are you have low drag calipers. Be aware that this same sympton will occur if there is still air in the caliper
or the bleeder screw that lets the air out during bleeding is not directly on top in the 12:00 position facing up.


quote:Originally posted by bige

Saw this on the Master Power Brake site...http://www.mpbrakes.com/uploads/documents/lowdrag.pdf

You never know?

Good info on their site if you haven't visited there.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

bige
10-22-2009, 02:31 PM
This is what I originally went looking for when I saw the other article. If you don't have a res valve in the front port and the master is below the calipers your getting drain back from the front. It wouldn't be common for any modern car that I know of to have res valves for front discs.

http://www.mpbrakes.com/uploads/documents/residualvalves.pdf

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 02:40 PM
No its got the blue "wilwood" 2# residual valves. The most likely scenario so far is the low drag calipers, I just have to confirm it and then figure out how to get them. If they don't elaborate low drag caliper vs normal getting the correct rebuild or new even might prove a challenge, I'll keep after it. This fixes it I'll owe you :D

quote:Originally posted by bige

This is what I originally went looking for when I saw the other article. If you don't have a res valve in the front port and the master is below the calipers your getting drain back from the front. It wouldn't be common for any modern car that I know of to have res valves for front discs.

http://www.mpbrakes.com/uploads/documents/residualvalves.pdf

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

bige
10-22-2009, 06:02 PM
Back in the 70's I worked on the counter in a parts store so I love playing with part #'s. It seems GM started using th low drag style in the early 80's but if you look up G Body calipers from 78-on the part numbers are all the same.

It looks like you would need to take the caliper apart and compare two known types to see a difference. Supposedly only in the groove where the inner seal runs and flex of the caliper itself.

I did find a post where the author said he replaced the 2# valve with a 10# with no problems. Might be worth a try?

I noticed that I could never get a really high pedal even when I had front only Turner brakes. It was never so low it was an issue and braking was very normal feeling so I never went any further. But with an MC mounted down low the combination of some fluid draining back into the lines and the low drag caliper you could have the symptoms you're experiencing.

I'm guessing there are a lot more low drag calipers out there than the earlier style.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

rusty nut garage
10-22-2009, 06:44 PM
I get off work here in 20min. First thing I'll do is check the caliper, I have another pair on the shelf, but who knows what type they are. The idea of replacing the 2# with a 10# has merit as long as the brakes didn't then drag. All this info about low drag calipers is enlightening to say the least. So the rear cadillac calipers are they considered low drag? If so they're isn't any work around for that due to the only years they applicable is well after GM started the low drag concept. I think that if a mid 80's S10 MC piston had a deep hole for the push rod I'd just install one of those since its the quick take up design to be used with the low drag calipers (jeep guys are using this
I agree that most all the disc brake calipers now are going to be the low drag so we need to find a work around it.
Thanks for your info today.
Russ

quote:Originally posted by bige

Back in the 70's I worked on the counter in a parts store so I love playing with part #'s. It seems GM started using th low drag style in the early 80's but if you look up G Body calipers from 78-on the part numbers are all the same.

It looks like you would need to take the caliper apart and compare two known types to see a difference. Supposedly only in the groove where the inner seal runs and flex of the caliper itself.

I did find a post where the author said he replaced the 2# valve with a 10# with no problems. Might be worth a try?

I noticed that I could never get a really high pedal even when I had front only Turner brakes. It was never so low it was an issue and braking was very normal feeling so I never went any further. But with an MC mounted down low the combination of some fluid draining back into the lines and the low drag caliper you could have the symptoms you're experiencing.

I'm guessing there are a lot more low drag calipers out there than the earlier style.

ErnieR

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

bige
10-22-2009, 07:04 PM
I didn't see any reference anywhere about the rear calipers. I think maybe the e brake coniguration might eliminate the possibility of low drag since they would be over-adjusting when the e brake is used, right?

What about going with a Caddy MC since it would be for disc/disc rather than the S10 which I think will be disc drum? I think I investigated it while I was trying to sort things out and don't remember why I didn't follow through.

ErnieR

rusty nut garage
10-23-2009, 02:34 AM
I checked the car and it had one conventional caliper and one low drag. I replaced the low drag with another conventional. NO HELP By the way the differences are very small a 15 deg shoulder on the conventional and a 30 on the low drag. If I hadn't had both types it would have been hard to tell.
I communicated with Jim Turner via email and he recommended rechecking the pushrod adjustment he says it very critical. I know I'm loose on the adjust so I'll look at that next. the only thing I can think of that wouldn't allow me to use a caddy mc would be the hole depth in the piston. Since this is a manual setup I need a deep hole for the pushrod to stay engaged. I saw on one of the 4X4 forums a guy used one on a manual set up and had to make a fastener of some type but I didn't get the specifics.

I'm out of town next 3 days so I'll update you on Monday evening.
Have a great weekend.



quote:Originally posted by bige

I didn't see any reference anywhere about the rear calipers. I think maybe the e brake coniguration might eliminate the possibility of low drag since they would be over-adjusting when the e brake is used, right?

What about going with a Caddy MC since it would be for disc/disc rather than the S10 which I think will be disc drum? I think I investigated it while I was trying to sort things out and don't remember why I didn't follow through.

ErnieR


http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

rusty nut garage
11-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Thanks for all those that contributed both thru the forum and via email. Also thank Jim for his help. My customer had installed this kit 2 yrs ago and lived with the results. Jim Turner is a STAND UP vendor and stood behind his kit and the parts he shipped over two years ago. Turned out that it wasn't a shortcoming in the kit design or parts but the wrong ratio brake pedal was being utilized. I assumed the pedals from a 53 to 64 hawk manual would have been the same but no, the 53 pedal (at least the 53 pedal on this car [8D] ) was a 14:1 ratio. The 54 pedal I used was a 7:1. I've included some pictures, hopefully they will help someone in the future.
Russ (self proclaimed brake expert for now ;) )

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/5354brkped.jpg
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/5354brkpedtrace.jpg

quote:Originally posted by rusty nut garage

I checked the car and it had one conventional caliper and one low drag. I replaced the low drag with another conventional. NO HELP By the way the differences are very small a 15 deg shoulder on the conventional and a 30 on the low drag. If I hadn't had both types it would have been hard to tell.
I communicated with Jim Turner via email and he recommended rechecking the pushrod adjustment he says it very critical. I know I'm loose on the adjust so I'll look at that next. the only thing I can think of that wouldn't allow me to use a caddy mc would be the hole depth in the piston. Since this is a manual setup I need a deep hole for the pushrod to stay engaged. I saw on one of the 4X4 forums a guy used one on a manual set up and had to make a fastener of some type but I didn't get the specifics.

I'm out of town next 3 days so I'll update you on Monday evening.
Have a great weekend.


[quote]Originally posted by bige

I didn't see any reference anywhere about the rear calipers. I think maybe the e brake coniguration might eliminate the possibility of low drag since they would be over-adjusting when the e brake is used, right?

What about going with a Caddy MC since it would be for disc/disc rather than the S10 which I think will be disc drum? I think I investigated it while I was trying to sort things out and don't remember why I didn't follow through.

ErnieR




http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp100/rustynutgarage/100_0133-1.jpg
Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
57 SH (project)
60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)