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Rosstude
01-13-2007, 12:37 AM
Ok, Ok, I may not be thinking clearly, but the more I think about this the more unsure I become.
If the pedal goes to the floor when you are bleeding one half of the system at a time, how is it that it will still work if, say, a flex line ruptures? Wouldn’t it go to the floor?
I know conventional wisdom is that the dual master cylinder will save your bacon if one half fails, and I sure do not want to test it out. Anybody had their “bacon saved” by a dual master cylinder after something failed?
I wondered too why some manufactures saw fit to install a valve that isolates one half from the other upon failure. I always called them proportioning valves, but they also slide over if ½ fails, or some dumb cluck like me bleeds the brakes too fast.
Yes, I bled brakes today, drank too much coffee, and now sit spinning “what if’s” around my brain. Anybody more qualified out there have any thoughts?

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar

studeclunker
01-13-2007, 12:53 AM
I had a '73 GMC pickup that lost the line in the rear. The pedal felt spongy and the braking didn't feel right. When I almost skidded off my driveway and down the mountain, I took time off work to determine the problem. It made me, understandably I'm sure, weak in the knees when the problem revealed itself. I had no brakes in the rear at all. The forward MC reservoir was bone dry. Yes, it will save your bacon, and a few side orders as well.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

gordr
01-13-2007, 02:41 AM
quote:Originally posted by Rosstude

Ok, Ok, I may not be thinking clearly, but the more I think about this the more unsure I become.
If the pedal goes to the floor when you are bleeding one half of the system at a time, how is it that it will still work if, say, a flex line ruptures? Wouldn’t it go to the floor?
I know conventional wisdom is that the dual master cylinder will save your bacon if one half fails, and I sure do not want to test it out. Anybody had their “bacon saved” by a dual master cylinder after something failed?
I wondered too why some manufactures saw fit to install a valve that isolates one half from the other upon failure. I always called them proportioning valves, but they also slide over if ½ fails, or some dumb cluck like me bleeds the brakes too fast.
Yes, I bled brakes today, drank too much coffee, and now sit spinning “what if’s” around my brain. Anybody more qualified out there have any thoughts?

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar



Ross, that device is not a proportioning valve. I guess you could call it a differential pressure indicator. There is a dumbbell-shaped piston in a bore. One end of the bore is open to front brake line pressure, and the other end to rear brake line pressure. Under normal operating conditions, line pressure is about equal at each end of the bore, and the piston stays put. Given a bad leak on one side, line pressure is vastly unequal (on a brake aplication), and the piston is driven forcefully to the low side, and when it moves, it triggers a switch, which turns on the brake warning lamp. The piston will stay there until it is driven back. That is usually accomplished by: first, repairing the cause of the leak, and second, "cracking" a fitting on the OTHER side, and applying steady brake pressure until the warning lamp is extinguished.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

DEEPNHOCK
01-13-2007, 09:01 AM
In 1967 the government (NHTSA?)mandated dual chamber master cylinders to prevent a 100% loss of brakes if a line blew (or wheel cylinder failed). Some manufacturers had already gone that route by that time.
The 'valve' that you see on many vehicles is more of a proportioning valve. It's function it to slightly change the timing of the application of the rear brake. The rear brakes should grab slightly after the front brake. The manufacturers plumbed [u]all</u> the lines (front AND rear) through this valve and also included a small shuttle piston that 'saw' pressure from both the front circuit and the rear circuit. There is a switch plumbed in the middle of this two ended piston. So, if there should be a brake failure due to a loss of line pressure (front, or rear) the shuttle piston would be pushed one way in the bore and this would close the switch contacts and turn the 'BRAKE' light on in the dash to tell you that there is a brake problem (Which you were probably well aware of at that particular time[:0]). Not a bad setup. One thing to make sure of when considering a dual master is that it have residual check valves built in to both the front and rear circuits. Since the master cylinder on many Stude's are mounted below the floor, the master cylinder is actually below the brake caliper and wheel cylinder. This means that air could be pulled into the wheel cylinder or caliper and the master could siphon brake fluid out. A residual check valve will keep either 2psi, or 10psi of line pressure in the lines. Good to keep air out, prevent siphoning, and keep the pistons from retracting.
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Rosstude

Ok, Ok, I may not be thinking clearly, but the more I think about this the more unsure I become.
If the pedal goes to the floor when you are bleeding one half of the system at a time, how is it that it will still work if, say, a flex line ruptures? Wouldn’t it go to the floor?
I know conventional wisdom is that the dual master cylinder will save your bacon if one half fails, and I sure do not want to test it out. Anybody had their “bacon saved” by a dual master cylinder after something failed?
I wondered too why some manufactures saw fit to install a valve that isolates one half from the other upon failure. I always called them proportioning valves, but they also slide over if ½ fails, or some dumb cluck like me bleeds the brakes too fast.
Yes, I bled brakes today, drank too much coffee, and now sit spinning “what if’s” around my brain. Anybody more qualified out there have any thoughts?

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar



http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

studeclunker
01-13-2007, 02:10 PM
Ok, now it's MY turn to be scared. Do you mean to say, Jeff, that if I lost the flex line in the rear of my Daytona wagon(for instance, dual system) that I would lose all pressure?[:0][B)][8] YIKES![:0]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

John Kirchhoff
01-13-2007, 02:33 PM
What Jeff said about the residual check valves being in both circuits is true when you have drum brakes all the way around. If you have disc brakes up front and drums in the rear, you'll only have the valve on the rear circuit. The shoes on drum brakes move quite a distance compared to discs and they also have a spring to pull the shoes away from the drum when you let up. Discs have very little clearance between the pad and disc when not applied and the only thing that pulls (or pushes) the pad away from the disc when you let up is the lack of any hydraulic pressure and a square rubber seal sort of like a square O ring inside the cylinder that presses tightly around the piston. When you apply pressure, the piston moves forward and slightly deforms the square ring, when you let up, the ring pulls the piston back slightly. That's what makes a disc brake stick when you have rust and crud in the brake cylinder. Hydraulic pressure overcomes the resistance of the crud between the piston and cylinder wall, but when you let up the rubber ring can't over come the resistance and your brake stays partially applied, getting the wheel so hot you could fry eggs on it if you were really hungry but it stinks much worse than frying eggs, melts wheel bearing grease which runs all over your tires and so on. Any one putting disc brakes on a drum system needs to make sure the master cylinder doesn't have a residual valve on that circuit.

Dick Steinkamp
01-13-2007, 03:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

What Jeff said about the residual check valves being in both circuits is true when you have drum brakes all the way around. If you have disc brakes up front and drums in the rear, you'll only have the valve on the rear circuit.


Except...if you have a stock Studebaker disc/drum setup, you will not have a residual check valve in either circuit.

Also, most modern front disc setups use a 2 pound residual check valve.

Please, please, please...don't INVENT your own brake set up. Too many variables and too many things that can lead to poor performing or even dangerous brakes. If you want to change things, get the COMPLETE setup from Jim Turner or another Studebaker Vendor that has engineered and tested the combination AND who has an installed base of happy users.



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

Rosstude
01-13-2007, 04:41 PM
Thanks to all for the insights, I do appreciate the help received here.
I have the complete Turner set up on the Provincial which is what I was working on yesterday. I purchased the deluxe kit, with the master cylinder kit, which included the 2# and 10# residual checks. This is the car my wife, and kid are in each day, as such safety is a top priority, hence the kit from Turner.
It appears that the valve I recall only(along with proportioning duties) activates a light, and does not isolate the failed circuit.

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar

sbca96
01-13-2007, 09:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Rosstude

If the pedal goes to the floor when you are bleeding one half of the system at a time, how is it that it will still work if, say, a flex line ruptures? Wouldn’t it go to the floor?
From what you are describing, I assume that you are starting with a
system that had no fluid in it? If thats true, air will be in both
sides of the master, and the lines, & the pedal will go to the floor.
You can get a handy tool from Kragen that is a vacuum pump, you hook
it to the bleeder screw and pump up vacuum, than you open the screw
and it will draw fluid/air out. Works very nicely. You can get most
of the air out before ever having to touch the brake pedal. Then you
can pump the pedal for a while and do it the old school way. Once
the air is out of BOTH systems, they will function separately & work
as your bacon saving feature. With air on the lines both sides will
work equally bad.


quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

Ok, now it's MY turn to be scared. Do you mean to say, Jeff, that if I lost the flex line in the rear of my Daytona wagon(for instance, dual system) that I would lose all pressure?
If you have a dual master, losing the rear flex line would only make
the rear brakes not work. The fronts will still operate. The flex
hose in the rear is just to transfer the rear steel line to the steel
lines on the axle and distribute them to the right and left brakes.
What Jeff is describing is just how the brakes apply, but the systems
are separate in a dual master system. The front brakes do about 75%
of the stopping, most rear brakes are only along for the ride and to
keep the back end positioned during a stop. What is interesting is
the 1995 Impala SS uses the same master and proportioning valve as
the base Caprice which is drum brakes. The Impala SS has disc rear.
This causes the rear to wear unevenly compared to the front. There is
a mod valve bolt available to free up the rear brakes so they work the
right way, GM didnt worry about this flaw because it has four wheel
anti-lock brakes. Which means it can't lock up anyway!;)


quote:Originally posted by Dick SteinkampPlease, please, please...don't INVENT your own brake set up. Too many variables and too many things that can lead to poor performing or even dangerous brakes. If you want to change things, get the COMPLETE setup from Jim Turner or another Studebaker Vendor that has engineered and tested the combination [u]AND who has an installed base of happy users</u>.
Love how you added that last part. Hehe. Nice jab! Kudos to you! I
will let you know when I have that happy users part. You let me
know when you get Turner's Gtech 60-0 results.:D;)

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

Dick Steinkamp
01-13-2007, 09:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Love how you added that last part. Hehe. Nice jab! Kudos to you! I
will let you know when I have that happy users part. You let me
know when you get Turner's Gtech 60-0 results.:D;)



Tom,
I really had no idea you were selling your disc brake conversions. I'm not that interested in Avantis, Camaros and Impala SS's, so I generally skip your posts. I do know you were building a cobra based disc brake set up for your Avanti, but I honestly didn't know you were selling them. My apologies if you felt I was "jabbing" you. My intent was to caution folks about experimenting with their braking system.

If you are marketing your brakes and you feel they stop better than your competition, then YOU should probably do some comparison testing with them. Don't wait for ME to do it...it would be a long wait ;).


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

sbca96
01-14-2007, 05:03 AM
Well, if you skip my posts, it explains why you didnt know I just got
the first article set from the CNC guy. I am only doing a limited run,
to get feedback on how well Studebaker kept their tolerances. As I
have stated in the past, not caring what the other guys are doing is
how you get left behind. Studebaker isnt around anymore, and we have
to get along without them. There is a lot that Studebaker can benefit
from things that GM and Ford learned since 1964. I apologize for my
jumping to conclusions on your post, it seemed to hit home. This is
something that should be of interest to ALL Studebaker owners from '52
to '66, since they ALL use the same front suspension. Avantis didnt
have an Avanti front suspension. Granted my R1 fuel pump rebuild is
an R1 thing, but most applies to the regular V8 pump too. The seats
I give you that, not gonna help you out much there. I had a useful
diversion from growing up with Studebakers. Whats funny to me, is I
get called "Studebaker guy" on the Mustang, Impala, and Camaro forums
and I am apparently the "Chevy guy" on here.[B)]

I agree .. throwing parts together on a brake system isnt a good plan,
its best to use matching parts, and do the proper research.

I posted up my Gtech results with the "little" 11 inch GT Mustang disc
brakes months ago. I have never seen any results from Turner or from
Steeltech. Would be interesting to see on a comparable weight car. I
know that my Avanti isnt exactly a lightweight!;)

Tom


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
I really had no idea you were selling your disc brake conversions. I'm not that interested in Avantis, Camaros and Impala SS's, so I generally skip your posts. ... My apologies if you felt I was "jabbing" you. My intent was to caution folks about experimenting with their braking system.

DEEPNHOCK
01-15-2007, 08:54 AM
No!
With a dual master cylinder (and the appropriate dual circuit plumbing) exactly the opposite.
You would have half your brakes, no matter if the failure was in the front, or in the rear.
The only connection through the distribution valve (for the front to rear circuits) was through the port
that the shuttle piston (and switch).
(They call it a warning valve in this pic)
http://www.procarcare.com/images/shar/encyclopedia/8852PG01.gif
If a failure occurs, then the pressure differential would cause the piston to slide over
to the failed side (no pressure) and the light on the dash comes on.
No fluid loss would occur, as the shuttle piston stops in it's bore.
A real good explanation of how a dual circuit master cylinder works can be found here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mastercylinderreplace/howworks.html
Some pretty good basic info can be found at the auto supply store sites....
Here's AutoZone's info site...
http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_resourcecenter_encyclopedia_brakes1.asp#top
It's worth a read....
Jeff[8D]





quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

Ok, now it's MY turn to be scared. Do you mean to say, Jeff, that if I lost the flex line in the rear of my Daytona wagon(for instance, dual system) that I would lose all pressure?[:0][B)][8] YIKES![:0]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

studeclunker
01-15-2007, 12:57 PM
there is no warning light on my Studebakers anywhere for failed brakes. Those lights came out in the '70s. I lost a wheel cylindar on one of my Larks once. The pedal went to the floor. I was able to pump up brake pressure and stop the car. It was scary though.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

sbca96
01-16-2007, 12:57 AM
Your "warning" is when the brakes need to be pumped.:D[:p];)

Tom


quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

there is no warning light on my Studebakers anywhere for failed brakes.

DEEPNHOCK
01-16-2007, 11:40 AM
I never said a Stude had that valve installed OE.
The original question went from a single system question, to a dual system question, to a proportioning valve question, then to upgrade possibilities, so I put in the follow up what the industry has done for a more modern brake circuit. I think we all have had our own single circuit failures at one time or another. Investigating the upgrades makes good sense.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

there is no warning light on my Studebakers anywhere for failed brakes. Those lights came out in the '70s. I lost a wheel cylindar on one of my Larks once. The pedal went to the floor. I was able to pump up brake pressure and stop the car. It was scary though.

studeclunker
01-16-2007, 12:36 PM
Good point there Jeff!:D So, how difficult is it to put one of those lights in my Stude? Of course, I'd only be able to put it into the Twins (Lark wagons). The others all have the old single pot under the floor. Is there a dual for the under-floor application? The single resevoir... bothers me.[}:)]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

sbca96
01-16-2007, 05:11 PM
I believe that Turner Brakes carries a dual setup to replace the under
floor masters in the Hawk and early Larks. Back-in-the-day when I had
my 60 Hawk, I planned on bolting a second master next to the factory
one and plumb it for the rear. The masters are through bolted, so its
not hard to get longer bolts. Then you just have to make a fork to
capture the "outer" master. Reason I would use the inner for front &
the outer for rear, is the front does 75-80% of the braking.

Tom

Roscomacaw
01-16-2007, 06:06 PM
" This is
something that should be of interest to ALL Studebaker owners from '52
to '66, since they ALL use the same front suspension."

It's FIFTY-ONE to '66. [:I]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

DEEPNHOCK
01-16-2007, 06:09 PM
Jim Turner has available exactly what you are looking for.
Contact him at: diskbrake1@insightbb.com
And visit his website:
http://www.turnerbrake.com/
http://www.turnerbrake.com/images/new.ht4.jpg


quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

Good point there Jeff!:D So, how difficult is it to put one of those lights in my Stude? Of course, I'd only be able to put it into the Twins (Lark wagons). The others all have the old single pot under the floor. Is there a dual for the under-floor application? The single resevoir... bothers me.[}:)]

Dick Steinkamp
01-16-2007, 07:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK
Jim Turner has available exactly what you are looking for.


I just helped Brian Curtis put one in his '63 Hawk. Good stuff. Sturdy. Everything fit like a glove.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

bams50
01-16-2007, 10:57 PM
That's a great kit, and Jim's a great guy!! I've got his stuff to convert my Provincial... if you see the kits in person you'll be sold! [8D]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

studeclunker
01-17-2007, 01:54 AM
What a wonderful idea!:D Now lets see... the brackets are roughly $140, a new dual MC is about $225, and I'll probably have to replace the Hill Holder as well at another $200. Add in the miscellaneous expenses that go along with it, and it would come to around six hundred dollars. Well, looks like I'll have to sell the Daytona Twins after all. Dang.[V] Well, thank goodness I have them to sell, otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it at all!;)

Anybody want a pair of nice '63 Daytona Wagonaires?:D They've got great floors!

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

John Kirchhoff
01-17-2007, 09:31 AM
Yes Ron, that stuff's EXPENSIVE! For that kind of money you could buy new ALL the neccessary brake lines, hoses, cylinder kits, shoes, emergency barke cable and anything else needed to install all that stuff like a case of beer, brats and BBQ grill and still have money left over. And you'd have a good, sound brake stem that should give you enough peace of mind so that you can actually enjoy your cars. It's ok to worry about something that is likely to happen but there's a point where you have to stop worrying and start enjoying. I figure after fixing the old system, it's kind of like worrying about getting struck by lightning, sure it could happen but very unlikely. Hang in there!

Scott
01-17-2007, 10:09 AM
Maybe I missed it, but if you have a dual master cylinder under the floor how can you fill it? I mean isn't the hole in the floor too small to make it possible to fill both chambers? And how easy it to get the wire hold down clamp back up once you've slid it over?

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2007, 10:44 AM
quote:Originally posted by Scott

Maybe I missed it, but if you have a dual master cylinder under the floor how can you fill it? I mean isn't the hole in the floor too small to make it possible to fill both chambers? And how easy it to get the wire hold down clamp back up once you've slid it over?


You probably can fill both chambers using the existing hole if you use a funnel with a hose on the end. If that's too tough, you can cut the existing hole bigger (oval shaped) and make a new cover.

I fill my stock master brake cylinder (and the hydraulic master cylinder for the clutch) from under the car. It's too tough to pull up my carpeting, and relatively easy to fill from under the car. I use a syringe filled with brake fluid and squirt it in.

The cap and wire bail come on and off easily with Turner's set up.





http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Transtar60
01-17-2007, 11:41 AM
Clunk how did you figure $225 for a new master cylinder??
I put the dual master cylinder bracket on my 1 ton and the master cylinder I used(1970's Dodge truck) was less than a kit for the old single resevoir.




quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

What a wonderful idea!:D Now lets see... the brackets are roughly $140, a new dual MC is about $225, and I'll probably have to replace the Hill Holder as well at another $200. Add in the miscellaneous expenses that go along with it, and it would come to around six hundred dollars. Well, looks like I'll have to sell the Daytona Twins after all. Dang.[V] Well, thank goodness I have them to sell, otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it at all!;)

Anybody want a pair of nice '63 Daytona Wagonaires?:D They've got great floors!

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2007, 01:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by Transtar60

Clunk how did you figure $225 for a new master cylinder??


...and a rebuild kit for the hill holder is $19. Not much in there to actually break.




http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

studeclunker
01-17-2007, 01:59 PM
A new MC from Studebaker International (such as displayed in the illustration) is $225. The Hill Holder on my car currently is not suitable for a dual MC. Unless there's a modification that's available to convert it. Therefore one must buy that new as well. Studebaker International lists the Hill Holder for the '63 Larks at $195.


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

Dick Steinkamp
01-17-2007, 03:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3]A new MC from Studebaker International (such as displayed in the illustration) is $225. The Hill Holder on my car currently is not suitable for a dual MC. Unless there's a modification that's available to convert it. Therefore one must buy that new as well. Studebaker International lists the Hill Holder for the '63 Larks at $195.


I forget what car we're talking about, but if it's a '53-64 with the under floor master cylinder, the master cylinder is about $40

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brake-Master-Cylinder-68-76-AMC-AMX-Gremlin-Matador_W0QQitemZ150080483282QQihZ005QQcategoryZ33566QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

To use your existing hill holder, route either the front or the back line through it.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Transtar60
01-17-2007, 03:41 PM
OK. Usually Jim will recommend a dual master from a brand X.
Most of them(Chrysler, Jeep, etc) are less than a $100 which are obtainable locally..
The hill holder would only need to be plumbed into either front or rear circuit. Not all 63-66 cars had the dual masters. Cars with disc brakes only had one.
Heres a copy of the list from his website:

part #Description Popular Erly/truck Late

56193* 64-76 AMC, 81-84 Jeep Trucks A NO YES

88872 76-86 All E-100, E-150, F 150 A NO YES

77002 75-79 Ranchero A NO YES

97934 77-86 E-100, E-150, F-150 A NO YES

44470 62-66 DeVille, Fleetwood C NO YES

105899 84 T-Bird A NO YES

Look under the instructions page, down toward the bottom is the instru
ctions on the bracket. I am sure Jim would recommend the appropriate master cylinder.



3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

studeclunker
01-17-2007, 06:49 PM
WOW! From $225 to $40 is a considerable difference! Still, that comparison (of manufacturer compatibility) is something I wouldn't know.[:I] I'm learning, though far from any kind of expert.[8)]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

Rosstude
01-17-2007, 07:08 PM
Nice discussion, and thanks for the links to some good information, learn something everyday. I see no need for a warning light alone, and residual checks and proportioning are covered by separate items included in the Turner kit. I am in full agreement, brakes are not something I want to experiment with.
Backing up a few posts concerning the double fairing. It is tricky, and takes practice, and we could discuss this at length. The kit I got from Eastwood over 15 years ago, had good instructions included, and I have not broken a tit off after many uses, but I see how it would be easy if something was cockeyed. Also, NAPA has a good selection of tubing and fittings, in SAE and metric, including SAE tubing with metric fittings, just takes a bit of digging to get the needed parts.
Now more than ever, I am convinced the dual master cylinder is a upgrade worthy of pursuit, I may even get rid of that “jelly jar” on my driver. The kit I purchased went in easily, and is very sturdy. The master cylinder set me back about $45, but the list was $72, still well under $100.
Filling the dual master, under the floor, is a bit of a pain, but only marginally more difficult than the original single unit.
I have done 4 or 5 disk conversions on cars and trucks other than Studes (OTS ?), and being a plumber, the flaring presents no problem. Back in the day before I became aware of, or concerned about liability, I did side work in a buddies hot rod shop installing brake and fuel lines. Still by no means an expert, nor engineer. I’ll take all the help I can get.

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar

sbca96
01-18-2007, 04:36 AM
Unless I am misunderstanding you, you have a 63 Lark, which has the
swinging brake pedal and the master is on the firewall. There should
not be any brackets needed, if you have power brakes you just use the
same master that the Avanti II used, its an early 70 Chrysler. You
can get them through any parts chain for about 80 bucks. Plumbing is
not that hard, you just buy some brake line, and start bending. Its
covered on the Johnstone website I believe.

http://patriot.net/~jonroq/rjtechx.html#BRAKES

"Here is what you will need. 1 ea. NAPA/United master cylinder 36307 (or Bendix 11515; this unit fits a variety of '71-'75 Mopars, but a specific model to nail it to is a '71 Dodge Polara, 360 ci V-8)"

Tom


quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

the brackets are roughly $140, a new dual MC is about $225, and I'll probably have to replace the Hill Holder ...... Anybody want a pair of nice '63 Daytona Wagonaires?

Transtar60
01-18-2007, 10:20 AM
Tom,
Clunker was asking about the under floor m/c
on his newly aquired 56? wagon.
About half way thru the thread.

3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

studeclunker
01-18-2007, 12:14 PM
Well, not only the '56 Provincial, but the '62 Champ as well. The Daytona Twins both have dual cylinders. In fact, one of them has a power assist on a dual. That twin was completely loaded. It has power brakes and steering, automatic, and AC. No wonder the motor is dead (LOL)!:D

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

sbca96
01-20-2007, 06:27 PM
Oh ok .. I missed that, I just kept reading "63".[:I]

Anyone try using two singles side by side like I mentioned?

Tom