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bams50
01-10-2007, 11:49 PM
The Lark wagon I've got coming from Dick is likely going to need exhaust before too long. So I'm trying to decide between single or duals...

It is a V8, but being a 4 dr. wagon I'm not thinking muscle car growl- mostly quiet with maybe a little sound when pushed- or not. What's most efficient plays into it also though...

I'm trying to decide:

1. Single or dual
2. If dual, what muffler
3. If dual, separate pipes or connecting equalizer
4. Regular or stainless

I know stainless is better long term- but if you go for it and don't like the setup you're stuck with it... with regular you can always run it till it croaks then try something different...

I like to do things right the first time; but I'm not concerned with authenticity...

What do you all think?

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

54-61-62
01-11-2007, 12:10 AM
All I can say is your one lucky man considering your delima of exhaust systems.....Most my stuff is several years away from even thinking about stuff like exhausts!

Kent

60Lark
01-11-2007, 12:59 AM
My preference would be Flowmaster dual exhaust with separate pipes. I love that sweet sound of a growling Studebaker [:p] As far as stainless or not ? It is strictly dependant upon your wallet.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce23b3127cce8d0f1fc7bd4900000000400CcNWTlozYsb http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc03b3127cce970d7aafd15f00000010100CcNWTlozYsb
Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil
Arnold, Missouri

53k
01-11-2007, 08:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by bams50

The Lark wagon I've got coming from Dick is likely going to need exhaust before too long. So I'm trying to decide between single or duals...

It is a V8, but being a 4 dr. wagon I'm not thinking muscle car growl- mostly quiet with maybe a little sound when pushed- or not. What's most efficient plays into it also though...

I'm trying to decide:

1. Single or dual
2. If dual, what muffler
3. If dual, separate pipes or connecting equalizer
4. Regular or stainless

I know stainless is better long term- but if you go for it and don't like the setup you're stuck with it... with regular you can always run it till it croaks then try something different...
I like to do things right the first time; but I'm not concerned with authenticity...
What do you all think?


Trust me. If you want duals, go with Don Simmon's stainless. The fit is excellent and he stands behind his product. I ordered my new Daytona Wagonaire with duals. In those days they were equipped with the "new, improved" aluminized exhaust systems. My tailpipes averaged about 18 months before rusting to the point of needing replacement. I even had my original pipes replaced under factory warranty. This was for a daily use car. It just didn't get hot enough to burn out all the moisture in the pipes. I finally put on a set of Don's pipes a few years ago- still like new.


[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

John Kirchhoff
01-11-2007, 11:14 AM
What Paul said about getting the exhaust system hot enough to get all the moisture out is cetainly a major factor in how long a muffler will last. A while back I was talking to a retired Ford mechanic. He said one cold winter day a woman called and said her car wouldn't start. They hauled it in, put it in the shop that evening and started working on it the next morning. They couldn't find anything wrong and sent it home. Next morning, same woman, same call. They brought it back in and started working on it immediately. Ends up there was so much water in the muffler that when outside, it froze and wouldn't let the exhaust through the passages. He said he drilled a hole in the muffler and after it thawed, close to a half gallon of water drained from it. All the result of lots of short runs around town.

blackhawk61
01-11-2007, 12:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by 60Lark

My preference would be Flowmaster dual exhaust with separate pipes. I love that sweet sound of a growling Studebaker [:p] As far as stainless or not ? It is strictly dependant upon your wallet.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce23b3127cce8d0f1fc7bd4900000000400CcNWTlozYsb http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc03b3127cce970d7aafd15f00000010100CcNWTlozYsb
Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil
Arnold, Missouri

Aluminumized (sp)lasts lots longer and not nearly as expensive as stainless (also looks original)Turbo mufflers less than flowmasters too (and sound good) [8D]

1961 Hawk 4BC,4-SPEED,TT
http://sixty5short.chevytalk-supporter.org/blackhawk61/rrhawk.jpg
Lewisville,NC
(formerly chevpartsman)

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 01:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by bams50

3. If dual, separate pipes or connecting equalizer



A dual system with an "H" pipe...

http://carcraft.com/techarticles/p140077_image_small.jpg

or "X" pipe...

http://carcraft.com/techarticles/p140078_image_small.jpg

Produces more torque, more HP than a system without the crossover. It also gets rid of the annoying resonance that you can sometimes hear at certain RPM ranges without the crossover.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/exhaust_system_installation/

http://www.walkerexhaust.com/support/exhaust101/componentsAndDesign.asp

http://www.timskelton.com/valkyrie/tech/images/h_pipes.pdf

I had an "H" pipe installed when I had the muffler system put in my Starliner...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/354000406_dd316e0c75.jpg

My '63 Hawk does not have a crossover, but has pretty BIG mufflers. I don't experience the resonance in either car.

IMHO, most Flowmasters will drive you nuts on a long trip. I have the Turbo type mufflers on my Starliner and they are pretty quiet unless you get on the loud pedal [:p]

When I want to make noise...I can uncap the exhaust in about 3 minutes...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/247745056_fbb3e701ca.jpg

It's a good compromise for me.

I think I ran about the same in the 1/8 mile at Omaha with open exhaust vs closed, so my closed system probably isn't robbing much power. (but much more FUN with it open [8D])

http://www.videoegg.com/video/bnCEyB

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/349983495_04ce12e967_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

bams50
01-11-2007, 02:18 PM
Thanks for all the replies thus far! Lots of good info (which I was seeking) and lots of good opinions (which I was also seeking) [^]

Just to clarify, I'm looking for the best breathing (performance) while keeping noise to a minimum. Dick hit it on the head when he mentioned resonance and noise on a long trip... I like that throaty growl as much as anybody; just not for this car! I don't feel it matches a 4 door wagon [|)] What I'm looking for is a good compromise between performance- breathing, correct amount of back pressure for a 259, best gas mileage; and quietness- biased toward quietness.

I don't mind paying more for quality; just trying to decide from all the choices:D

Thanks for the links, Dick; I'll check those out.

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

bams50
01-11-2007, 02:25 PM
BTW Paul; any contact info on this Don Simmons?

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 02:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by bams50
any contact info on this Don Simmons?


http://www.studebakervendors.com/silverto.htm#ANCHORTOP

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/349983495_04ce12e967_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

John Kirchhoff
01-11-2007, 04:22 PM
Dick, beautiful exhaust system and immaculate underside of your car. Don't they have mud where you're at?? Your "open up the header" idea is really slick but it wouldn't work for me. I'd have it ripped off the first trip down my driveway. Missouri mud has a way of sucking up gravel in short order.

Rosstude
01-11-2007, 04:24 PM
I had a local shop install the duals on the 57 Provincial, 2 1/4”, no cross over, with what he called “OEM Cadillac mufflers”. It has a very little bit of a throaty / burble sound at idle, and under acceleration, but is very quiet at speed. Ran me just over $300, which was with the home made brownie discount. I like quiet.

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 04:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff
Your "open up the header" idea is really slick but it wouldn't work for me. I'd have it ripped off the first trip down my driveway.


They are the lowest part of the car for sure. I've scraped them a bunch. If I did it again, I'd think of a way to get them tucked up a little more.



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 04:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by Rosstude
...with the home made brownie discount.


What a concept [^]. I'm going to steal that idea!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

bams50
01-11-2007, 09:24 PM
Another question:

I see Silvertone offers 2 1/4" pipes for extra money... would it be of any advantage to a stock 259?

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

DEEPNHOCK
01-11-2007, 09:29 PM
That is just way, WAY too clean...
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/354000406_dd316e0c75.jpg


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 10:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by bams50
I see Silvertone offers 2 1/4" pipes for extra money... would it be of any advantage to a stock 259?


IMHO, it's at BEST a waste of money, at worst robs torque and HP.

I think the LAST thing a stock 259 needs is a big fat exhaust system. With those Siamesed center exhausts ports and log type cast exhaust manifolds, 259 cubic inches, and maybe 5000 RPM's a 2" dual system should be PLENTY.

I sized my 327...220 HP and 270 pounds of torque (at the rear wheels) at 2" duals. That's what I'm running. Bigger isn't always better.

Just my 2 cents.



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 10:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

[navy][b]That is just way, WAY too clean...


Sorry [:I]. I'll have to do some mud whompin' ;)



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

John Kirchhoff
01-12-2007, 10:57 AM
Dick, when I see how clean you keep the BOTTOM of your car, I get the feeling you'd make me take my shoes off before coming into your house. Just as long as you don't make me wear Kleenex boxes on my feet like Howard Hughes!

Dan White
01-12-2007, 12:17 PM
I would recommend using stainless steel band type clamps. These do not crimp your pipes and allow adjustment if you have knocks. They also are a lot easier to get off if you need to replace any of the pipes. I have been using them on all my systems now going forward:

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2006231/c-10101/Nty-1/p-2006231/Ntx-mode+matchallpartial/N-10101/tf-Browse/s-10101/Ntk-AllTextSearchGroup?Ntt=STrap+Clamp

they also are available at NAPA

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

CHAMP
01-12-2007, 05:14 PM
Stainless Steel is the way to go if you plan to keep the car a long time and it is going to be setting around idle a lot. As far as duels go I think it is a matter of preference. I like duel exhaust but with a bone stock engine they are at best a slight performance advantage. If you add a four barrel carb with the duels then you will notice more performance!

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

showbizkid
01-12-2007, 07:16 PM
You might check out the "x-pipe" style crossover. Lot of guys in my other club (Pxxtiac) have been installing them and raving about them. Check out http://pypesexhaust.com/xpipes.html .


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

Dick Steinkamp
01-12-2007, 07:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

Dick, when I see how clean you keep the BOTTOM of your car, I get the feeling you'd make me take my shoes off before coming into your house. Just as long as you don't make me wear Kleenex boxes on my feet like Howard Hughes!


John, you can come in my house any day with your shoes on [^].

Funny thing, however (and WAY off topic). When we moved here to the Pacific Northwest, we found it quite common for folks to take their shoes off at the door and wear slippers or just their socks. I had not seen that since my days with NEC in Japan [:0]. We got used to it pretty quick and do it at our house also (except for visiting Studebaker dignitarys of course :)). I still haven't figured out why it's the "custom" here. My only explanation is that many of the old houses (including ours) have fir floors (no hardwood here in the PNW)...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/355302028_6361dd8457.jpg

They are beautiful, but don't take a lot of abuse. Maybe that's the reason?



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

DEEPNHOCK
01-12-2007, 08:04 PM
I have a hardwood kitchen floor with carpet in the living room, dining room, and front hallway. Our two dogs (and one cat) think this 'great circle run' is a great racetrack with one slippery corner.
Fun to watch, but I am glad it is a hard, hard wood;)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
Funny thing, however (and WAY off topic). When we moved here to the Pacific Northwest, we found it quite common for folks to take their shoes off at the door and wear slippers or just their socks. I had not seen that since my days with NEC in Japan [:0]. We got used to it pretty quick and do it at our house also (except for visiting Studebaker dignitarys of course :)). I still haven't figured out why it's the "custom" here. My only explanation is that many of the old houses (including ours) have fir floors (no hardwood here in the PNW)...
They are beautiful, but don't take a lot of abuse. Maybe that's the reason?


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

John Kirchhoff
01-12-2007, 08:42 PM
Well Dick, one of these years I may just have to look you up. That would give me a good excuse to visit Washington state, one of the three lower 48 states I haven't ridden my motorcycle over. We always take our shoes off too, but that could have something to do with the high probability of having mud or manure on them. Don't worry, I'd scrape the sheep poop off before I left!

sbca96
01-12-2007, 09:05 PM
I have an Edelbrock exhaust on my 93 Camaro Z28, and Flowmaster on my
wifes 95 Camaro Z28, but those exhausts are very different than the
duals on a Stude, the muffler is behind the rear axle. The closest I
have with a Flowmaster is my 95 Impala SS. I bought the quiet exhaust
for it, due to fears of resonating on long trips, but it was actually
TOO quiet and I felt like I wasted money on an aftermarket exhaust and
no one would know! I bought the non-resonator tailpipes, and swapped
out the quiet ones. Its STILL too quiet. My daily drive in that car
is 110 miles round trip, and we drive it to L.A. quite frequently. If
you find that the exhaust IS too loud, you can always add resonators
to each side at the rear. I have duals on the Avanti, and straight
thru glass packs, that exhaust is annoyingly loud and popping. I hate
the way it sounds MOST the time, though sometimes between shifts it
reminds me of the Mustang in Bullitt.[8D]

Unless I can find a local shop to make me a full mandrel bent exhaust
for the Avanti, I will be going with the larger size from Silvertone.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

bams50
01-12-2007, 11:36 PM
Thanks so much yet again everyone! Gives me lots of good info to help me decide :D

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

53k
01-13-2007, 09:22 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

Dick, when I see how clean you keep the BOTTOM of your car, I get the feeling you'd make me take my shoes off before coming into your house. Just as long as you don't make me wear Kleenex boxes on my feet like Howard Hughes!


John, you can come in my house any day with your shoes on [^].

Funny thing, however (and WAY off topic). When we moved here to the Pacific Northwest, we found it quite common for folks to take their shoes off at the door and wear slippers or just their socks. I had not seen that since my days with NEC in Japan [:0]. We got used to it pretty quick and do it at our house also (except for visiting Studebaker dignitarys of course :)). I still haven't figured out why it's the "custom" here. My only explanation is that many of the old houses (including ours) have fir floors (no hardwood here in the PNW)...


Same custom in Hawaii (may be Japanese influence). In our case, with a new house there, shoes off was to prevent tracking in the red mud.
My son and daughter-in-law built a new house next to us a couple years ago and they do the shoes off at the front door. When they come over to our place they all take off their shoes at the door even though we don't.
The old Yamato's Japanese Restaurant in San Francisco required shoes off to enter the restautant.



[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

fpstude
01-13-2007, 10:26 PM
I really appreciate the suggestion from Dan White about band type exhaust clamps. I didn't know about them. I picked up a Don Simmons system in Omaha and will install on our GT. (using this type of clamp)

Thanks,

Perry
'23 Special Six,
'50 Business Champ,
'50 Starlight Champ,
'60 Lark droptop,
'63 GT

sbca96
01-14-2007, 05:15 AM
quote:Originally posted by fpstude

I really appreciate the suggestion from Dan White about band type exhaust clamps. I didn't know about them.
Yes these are pretty nice, but they dont grab or hold as well as the
old crushing ones. This is the same clamp that came on my Edelbrock
exhaust my 93 Camaro Z28, the rear of the exhaust is under stress to
twist from its own weight. Just the tail pipe alone on the pass side
dropped about 3 inches in one day!! I had to put a heater bar on my
ratchet to crank it down. Before some of you get upset about GM info
on a Studebaker forum, all cars are built similar, so this info is of
use at certain points that might want to twist. Do some checking a
couple days after you assembly it for parts that might have shifted
after it has warmed up and cooled down. Especially with stainless
steel which can "grow" more than regular steel.

Tom

http://www.jcwhitney.com/wcsstore/jcwhitney/images/imagecache/G_16231G_SW_1.gif

Dan White
01-14-2007, 11:07 AM
If you buy a SS exhaust from Don Simmons (Silvertone) he uses 409 SS which is the common stainless for commercial SS exhaust systems. 409 (ferritic) has a CTE (coefficient of thermal expansion) of approximately 11 parts per million/degree C, while most plain steels are around 13. On the other hand many "show" and street rod stainless exhaust systems use 304 SS (austenitic) which takes a polish that 409 will not, thus the attraction. 304 has a CTE of 17 ppm/C, so it does indeed expand more than normal steel will and can cause issues if not careful, but 409 will not expand as much as normal steel so not as likely to create a problem. Also, 409 has better corrosion resistance than 304.

I have had no problem with the band clamps so far on any of my vehicles. Yes you need to crank down on these clamps to close them properly and deform the stainless band to form a tight seal on the joint.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

stude freak
01-14-2007, 08:20 PM
Robert, I use turbos on my off brand bonestock 74 nova.I have 15 inchers on it great sound when you stomp it . But you can get turbos up to 21 inches in length that provide a quieter ride.I love mine .

David Baggett Mantachie,Ms.

Challenger
01-18-2007, 10:43 PM
Bams, in your particular case I would suggest single exhaust. Here is why: Duals are known to increase the power output of a car engine. If you Had duals, and you saw the Battery Clerk Guy you have a grudge against drive by, you would probably develop road rage, catch up with him in your Lark in a New York Minute, and do something you would regret from your prison cell. Think it over. Speed Kills. Just a suggestion. [}:)]

chocolate turkey
01-20-2007, 10:25 AM
I built a thousand exhaust systems over a 25 year period and do recommend a 2 1/4" dual exhaust system on a 259 cu. in. Stude V-8. I've had every size up to and including the 2 1/4" and found that the sound and power was most advantagous with that size. Also,, lots of folks asked "what kind of engine do you have in this car?". I had both stock and modified 259's. I want to put a 2 1/2" system on my GT Hawk project, just to hear the noise!
My muffler of choice was "Walker Blue Bottles". (not available any more, so I'm told)


Brian K. Curtis

Challenger
01-20-2007, 11:04 AM
A single exhaust system will outlast a dual system by a very long time. If you use a freeflowing muffler, it actualy has a very good smooth sound to it I suppose because it combines the cylinders from both sides of the engine. Using single (with larger diameter tubing than stock) isnt going to cheat you out of power too much over duals on a small cid engine like a 259. Longer life, lower initial costs, smooth sound.

Alexander Feiman
01-20-2007, 03:21 PM
being a street rodder i've come across many parts sites and i just got done checking out a site who sells many low clearence pipes, sections and mufflers it is www.drgas.com -alf