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mike gaines
01-10-2007, 02:31 PM
I have noticed on my 58 Silverhawk that the rear bushing on the inner shaft has not been fully pressed into the right side control arm, it is not loose but is only pressed in about 75% of its length. The manual says it should be pressed in to the point where the bushing shoulder is flush against the control arm.Is this having any effect on my front end , the car tends to wander a bit, despite correct alighnment. I have also had the clutch and pressure plate replaced and now have a severe clutch shudder when pulling off, the clutch pedal is also stiffer than what I think it should be. The shop that did the work is adament that there is no oil on the facings and maintains that the problem is the material used on the clutch plate. Sounds like nonsense to me as all parts were ordered new ( reconditioned ).They also say that the pressure plate springs are in spec. Any ideas , I havnt paid them for the work yet.

PackardV8
01-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Just asking, but did you have the flywheel resurfaced?

PackardV8

Rosstude
01-10-2007, 05:37 PM
If I recall correctly, the inner bushings have a shoulder or step on the OD of the metal sleeve. This shoulder is what is referenced in the manual, and not the lip at the outer edge by the bolt.
The clutch shudder could be caused by several things, as stated “was the flywheel resurfaced?” that could cause this shudder. Maybe the friction disk is not fully “broken in” and needs a few more miles to seat. Maybe the clutch is glazed from slippage or hard use in the first few miles. How about the motor mounts? Soft or missing mounts can cause shuddering.
Personally, I would check the motor mounts, and if those check out good, then I would give the new clutch a few more miles prior to tearing it back apart.

[img=left]http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/Rosstude/OldWorld2005002.jpg[/img=left]
Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar

GTtim
01-10-2007, 08:06 PM
Mike, I wouldn't worry too much about the bushing. Is it visibly different from the other inner control arm bushings? The bushings have a shoulder that is slightly larger than the main diameter about 1/4 inch from the end. Don't confuse this 'shoulder' with the flange at the end. At any rate, all the bushing has to do is sit in the control arm and not move. If it is not fully seated but still moves with the control arm and isn't loose, I don't see a problem with that.



[quote]Originally posted by mike gaines

I have noticed on my 58 Silverhawk that the rear bushing on the inner shaft has not been fully pressed into the right side control arm, it is not loose but is only pressed in about 75% of its length. The manual says it should be pressed in to the point where the bushing shoulder is flush against the control arm.Is this having any effect on my front end , the car tends to wander a bit, despite correct alighnment.

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

John Kirchhoff
01-10-2007, 08:43 PM
As far as the clutch shudder goes, sounds like the release fingers aren't adjusted evenly. They have to be set pretty closely, well actually very closely. If they aren't, the shudder won't get any better and may get worse. On tractors I've put a new clutch disc on an old flywheel, old disc on a resurfaced flywheel and a new disc on a resurfaced flywheel and I've never had any of them shudder. I'm in no way discounting what the other folks have said and they could all be very much correct and me totally wrong. And it may very well get better in a few miles, but I sure think I'd hold off on paying them until you run it a bit more. As far as being stiffer acting, the new pressure plate probably has stiffer springs or at least springs that aren't sacked out with age like the old ones. I also think I'd ask them exactly what they mean when they said the pressure plate springs are in spec. I'm looking at the shop manual right now and for a '59, the clutch finger height should be 1-13/16" + or - 1/32". Personally I consider the 1/32" (.031") rather generous and if it were me, I'd try for half that.

Oh, and as far as the it being caused by the clutch material, HA! That's a bunch of c*** and you're getting a lame excuse. I've used ceramic button discs and the common fiber faced discs. The material is as different as night and day and the only difference is in the engagement travel. And if it were oil on the clutch, it would slip and actually engage very smoothly without any abruptness. The only way I've found you can get any shudder when engaging the clutch and it not be the clutch is if the engine is missing on a couple of cylinders. If it is, the engine should be rocking and rolling like Elvis's hips when idling. Good luck!

mike gaines
01-11-2007, 02:17 PM
Thanks everyone, yes I was looking at the lip on the inner bushing , couldnt see the shoulder on the bushing itself. The bushings are all tight so I will leave that one alone. The flywheel was not resurfaced , so will take the advice to hold onto payment for a while longer and see if clutch gets better.I have been using it for about 1500 miles , I try to use the car every day.

Dick Steinkamp
01-11-2007, 03:44 PM
quote:Originally posted by mike gaines
I have been using it for about 1500 miles


If you have driven this car 1500 miles since the clutch job, the shudder ain't going away :(. Did they supply the parts or did you?



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/131/354114035_77d8c46a5f_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

John Kirchhoff
01-11-2007, 04:17 PM
Mike, if you've driven it 1500 miles, I don't think it's going to get any better. My experience has been that if it's the release fingers misadjusted, it's likely it'll get worse. I have a grain truck like that now, what was slightly noticable several years ago is now quite annoying when slipping the clutch while backing up heavily loaded. The springs wind up repeatedly making it eventually "dog hump" so badly I have to shove the clutch in and start over again.

I might ask if it was acting the same way before the new pressure plate and disc was installed? If it was, I guess it's possible the clutch was slipped to badly at sometime that it warped the surface of the flywheel slightly. I feel that's highly unlikely and if it's been that hot, the surface of the flywheel will be "heat checked" with lots of very small cracks in the surface. That's something that's very noticable to the naked eye but I've yet to have a heat checked flywheel make the thing shudder when engaging the clutch. You might ask the installer how the surface of the flywheel looked when they worked on it. Deep scoring might make for rough or abrupt engagement but that's about all. I bet the flywheel was in good shape because it's fairly inexpensive to resurface a small flywheel.

Without sounding to much like a broken record, let me just say a properly installed and adjusted clutch isn't going to shudder regardless of the friction disc material used. You could turn down an oak plank to the proper tolerances and it wouldn't shudder. Termites or woodpeckers may get it though.....

mike gaines
01-13-2007, 01:37 PM
Hi Guys, I am pretty new to Classic cars , this is the first one I have owned. I have a basic mechanical knowledge and a great talent for breaking things I am trying to fix.This car wasnt operating when I bought it so I dont know the condition of the clutch at that time. I have found that the repairer installed a second mounting plate at the rear of the gearbox which he says would help with the shudder. I have now removed this additional mounting and the clutch shudder is now less pronounced. It occurrs when I try to pull off with low to normal revs but at higher than normal revs there is little or no shudder.Is this perhaps a pressure plate problem ?

John Kirchhoff
01-13-2007, 03:00 PM
Any way you look at it, the clutch is grabbing which it shouldn't. But, you might do as Ross suggested and look at the motor mounts to make sure they're not oil soaked with the consistancy of Jello.

It the shudder worse when backing up than going forward? That wouldn't have anything to do with the clutch because it's still going the same direction, but it would be trying to wind the rear springs up the opposite direction. Without going outside in the snow and looking, I can't remember if the axle is centered in the middle of the spring's length or forward of the middle. I'm no expert in physics, but I do know the shudder is often worse backing up than going forward. I figure it must have something to do with length of spring that is being compressed and possibably the presence of the shackle on the end that's now being compressed. You might also check to make sure a leaf in the spring hasn't broken, particularly behind the axle.

I don't know what, where or how the extra plate was mounted, but to me it sounds like he was trying to get rid of the shudder by reducing the amount of distance the engine-tranny could move in the rubber mounts. If the mechanics plate was restraining the tranny more than orginal and removing it made it better, you might look for something that should be rubber on rubber but instead is steel on steel. You might make sure a front mount doesn't have a loose or missing nut or that someone bored a hole clear through the rubber part and installed a bolt through it. Something like that would allow compression but not tension. It sounds like the rubber mounts are helping attenuate the on-off torque application the clutch is generating.