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studelover
01-08-2007, 07:57 PM
Found a new project car in west virginia and today was the first day cleaning it out and looking at it, when I picked it up I noticed I could not get the hood down I did not think much of it, today I found that the car I bought from this guy was in an accident, the accident was so serious that it misalighned the front and the rear like it was sandwiched, I don't know whether to get my money back or go ahead and fix the car. I thought studebaker people were honest, most of the people in the hobby are very honest about things like this, if he had told me I would have not bought the car, is it that hard to bring this car back into alighnment? the hood will not close, the trunk hits the bumper before it closes, if you are looking at it, it doesen't give you any indication that something happened to it.

Studebakers forever!

rockne10
01-08-2007, 09:16 PM
A shop that specializes in frame alignment, especially if it's been in business for a few decades, should have no problem bringing it back to spec. Large body shops have alignment racks but may or may not have the experience or specifications for these full-frame cars.

I have a Motor's Crash Book with complete frame dimensions for Hawks through 1957. Don't know if 1961 would match. I can make a copy of the chart, if that would help.

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
33 Rockne 10
51 commander Starlight
53 Commander Starlight
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/51x2.jpg
previously: 63 Cruiser, 62 Regal VI, 60 VI convertible, 50 LandCruiser

DEEPNHOCK
01-08-2007, 09:22 PM
OK,
Since you have posted this in a few places, let's keep the tech stuff here...
1) Your trunk lid is probably fine. The trunk lid lower lip hitting the bumper is common. It probably just needs hinge alignment, hinge rebuild, or new springs (or a combination of all three). After you get that part done, then you will definitely need new rubber and then adjust the latch. This is a common malady on all C/K Studebakers.
2) Your hood won't close properly. First. Is the hood bent? (A slight bow in the hood lines along the side lines, especially right in front of the doubled metal six inches in front of the rear hinge pin). This is also common in C/K Stude's and is not indicative of a wreck. It can happen quite easily when one opens and closes the hood 'without' pulling it forward as you open it and close it. That can cause it to not close right. This is something that can be repaired, and an aftermarket 'stiffner' is available to prevent this from happening again.
3) How are the seam gaps on the doors? Are they even on top (front to rear)? Are the seam gaps even (top to bottom) at the back edge of the door?
4) What condition is the 'batwing' under the front of the cabin? Is there a lot of rust on the bottom?
5) How is the condition of the front body mounts (lower firewall to frame mount, right and left). Any rusted out spots? Any buckles?
6) What is the condition of the bottom of the frame right near the front of the rear spring mounting plate? How is the bottom of the frame from that point all the way to the top of the rear axle kickup?
Rust in any of 4,5,6 will cause body panel misalignment problems, and may look like accident damage, but is in fact....just rust damage.

Before you condemn the Studebaker world, you need to ascertain exactly what may, or may not be wrong.

Have you had the car on a frame rack? Even if you have, I have rarely seen a Studebaker that measured perfectly 'square'. It would have to be really tweaked bad to be as bad as you describe.

I do hope this info is useful.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by studelover

Found a new project car in west virginia and today was the first day cleaning it out and looking at it, when I picked it up I noticed I could not get the hood down I did not think much of it, today I found that the car I bought from this guy was in an accident, the accident was so serious that it misalighned the front and the rear like it was sandwiched, I don't know whether to get my money back or go ahead and fix the car. I thought studebaker people were honest, most of the people in the hobby are very honest about things like this, if he had told me I would have not bought the car, is it that hard to bring this car back into alighnment? the hood will not close, the trunk hits the bumper before it closes, if you are looking at it, it doesen't give you any indication that something happened to it.

Studebakers forever!


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

bams50
01-08-2007, 09:46 PM
In my experience, as long as the body and frame is solid, straightening and aligning a body and/or frame is not that tough for a qualified frame shop.

Maybe the seller doesn't know much about cars, bought it to fix up, and lost interest before even starting; why automatically assume he's a crook?

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

bams50
01-08-2007, 10:00 PM
Also- if you could post or send me some pics, I could give you an educated opinion on what's wrong; I did that type of work for 20 years.

One more thing: It is posible, even likely, that ANY group can have a dishonest person in their midst... to think otherwise is asking for trouble! But it's unfair to jump to conclusions also, especially when dealing with 46 year old cars...

Let's have a look, and we'll help get this car back on the road!![8D]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

studelover
01-09-2007, 03:01 AM
OK, looking at the situation, I can see your point. He has 5 or 6 cars on his wall that he has restored, all hawks.I asked him why he did not want to restore this one and he never gave me a good answer. What tipped me off that it was in an accident was, I took the trunk lid off and there is a small creases in the wing, then when you look at the floor there are small creases on the left side, looking at the bumperthere is a nice gap on the right side, the left side dosen't have any gap at all. The front bumper has a gap on the drivers sside and the right side you can't see the chrome moulding at the front of the hood strip. At the left rear side of the hood there is a crease however it dosen't interfere with the opening and closing of the hood it's there because an impact.this pic shows the hood closed this is as far as it will go.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/mr1940/IMG_0043.jpg

Studebakers forever!

StudeRich
01-09-2007, 03:46 AM
Well it is clear that what DeepnHock (Jeff) said about frame RUST is definetely applicable here! This appears to be a rusted out, rust belt car!

bams50
01-09-2007, 06:40 AM
Based on this one picture it doesn't look wrecked to me- bumper appears straight and level, grille and openings look straight, etc. In any case, I don't see anything that would be a problem to fix!

The bigger issue is all that rust- that can cost serious money to fix Have someone knowledgeable about cars, preferably with Stude knowledge, look over the frame, floors, and body mounts carefully, and get a clear picture of what it's really going to need to restore it! ANYTHING can be fixed- and [b]so can this one! But if your old car knowledge/experience is not very extensive and you don't know what you've really got, you can get overwhelmed very quickly :(

If you're of a mind to, and have the patience and commitment, you can get great satisfaction from bringing a neglected old Stude back to it's former glory! If you're not up to it, sell this car and save up for one in better condition to start with...

Either way, keep this in mind: Whether you're doing a complete frame-off resto- or finishing details on a show car- or anything in between, all the parts and info you'll need are available! And best of all, this forum and it's great (and expert!) folks are here for you all the way through!!

Truth be told, that last paragraph is a large part of why I've fallen so deeply for Studebakers!! [8D]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

studelover
01-09-2007, 08:03 AM
I understand what you are saying and it is true however I think you are missing the point. It's not that I can't fix it, I was sold something that was not what it was represented to be, honesty is very important to me. I talked this guy three times then went up to see him. if he had told me the truth I would have made a choice. I could not sell this car to anyone I know because of it's condition. I would not do that to my friends or any one in the hobby.The damage here is so slight in what you see it's deceivingtwo inches in front and 1 1/2 in the rear, If you look closely at the head light bezel you see that it's not there, I found a cracked one in his other parts car.I have some real good people around me it's no problem getting them to fix it, they value my help and opinion. When they see this they will wounder if I have lost my mind. The seller knew I wanted tofix this car why else would I be looking to get a title.

Studebakers forever!

bams50
01-09-2007, 08:38 AM
I hear you; but what caught my ear was, "I thought Studebaker people were honest", inferring that you've now found out they're not... my experience is they're a high-quality bunch, and to make a blanket statement like that when you can't yet know if even your seller did anything wrong is unfair![V]

That said, I feel you may be overestimating th seller's knowledge of damage. Speaking for myself, when I look at a car that needs that much work, it never occurs to me that panel fit would indicate collision damage. Anything can happen to a car in 4 plus decades of use and deterioration; who knows, maybe it was wrecked 30 years ago, and no one knows! If I had bought this and found damage, I would have taken it in stride and chalked it up to part of the deal, and just fixed it! If you buy a really nice car and find this, it'd be a different story; but if you buy a rough project car, finding things like this are common! The pic shows the car in a lot with other project cars; what leads you to think the seller has given all the cars a really close examination, or that he'd know what he's looking at if he did?

Call the seller if you want to- but I'd be surprised if he didn't say, "You bought an as-is rough project car- what did you expect?" I'm still recommending to forget it and concentrate on what's important- get the car fixed and back on the road- or get one that needs less work!

If you have "good people" around you, meaning knowledgeable and skilled, the only reason they'd think you've lost your mind is if they feel it's beyond your capability- either financially or in the area of patience ;)

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

John Kirchhoff
01-09-2007, 08:57 AM
Yes, the front fenders are pretty ugly and the floor and frame may be nearly gone but on the bright side, it looks like nearly all of the chrome and stainless pieces are there and in decent shape (except the missing wiper arms). The chrome looks good on the bumper and the wheel opening trim is there and looks decent. If the body or frame is totally shot, I'm sure there's a few stripped bodies around to be had that are in better shape.

ST2DE5
01-09-2007, 09:57 AM
I don't know if this helps . But my 48 had a similar problem. It was the boxs that sit on the bat wing and welded to the floor board. They were rusted and gave way. I took all the body mounts loose raised the body to get everything lined up and then welded the new boxes in along with new floor boards. Everything works good now.

DEEPNHOCK
01-09-2007, 10:14 AM
Based on this picture you posted on another forum, it does not look like anything was hidden. That dent is clearly visible, and I cannot imaging how a collision could cause that dent without having massive damage to the body tub underneath. That fin damage looks like something hit the fin from above. But that is just an opinion based on a picture.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/mr1940/IMG_0054.jpg
The headlight bezel being missing is easy to understand. The whole headlight bucket area of the front fender is rotted off!
There will be a thousand dollars tied up in just finding two decent front fenders for this car, accident or not.
The rot showing in your pictures everywhere else on this car is typical for a rust belt Hawk, and something that no seller could ever hide, lie about, minimize, or talk around. It is there. It is obvious.
Let us know who the seller was, so we can hear the other side of this story...from him.
I am sure that it will be interesting.
Jeff[8D]





quote:Originally posted by studelover

I understand what you are saying and it is true however I think you are missing the point. It's not that I can't fix it, I was sold something that was not what it was represented to be, honesty is very important to me. I talked this guy three times then went up to see him. if he had told me the truth I would have made a choice. I could not sell this car to anyone I know because of it's condition. I would not do that to my friends or any one in the hobby.The damage here is so slight in what you see it's deceivingtwo inches in front and 1 1/2 in the rear, If you look closely at the head light bezel you see that it's not there, I found a cracked one in his other parts car.I have some real good people around me it's no problem getting them to fix it, they value my help and opinion. When they see this they will wounder if I have lost my mind. The seller knew I wanted tofix this car why else would I be looking to get a title.

Studebakers forever!

55Studebaker
01-09-2007, 11:13 AM
quote:Originally posted by studelover
I asked him why he did not want to restore this one and he never gave me a good answer.


What I don't get if you didn't get a good answer why did you buy the car? I've bought cars sight unseen and haven't been burned because I've talked to the sellers and if you can't get a straight answer then you should just walk away.

This car looks like its pretty decent to restore. Most of the trim looks to be in place and the body looks straight. I don't really see anything indicative of being in an accident. If the frame is slightly misaligned maybe it happened years ago before this owner got the car, because the paint and body panels look in decent shape with no major deformities aside from the rust and they all look to have the same paint. And an accident that would cause a frame to be misaligned would almost have to do major damage to at least the front or rear quarters. It may have been in an accident and just put back together or repaired with out the frame being checked a long time ago. Just my .02

John Reich
Long Island Chapter Spotlight Editor & Webmaster
http://myspace-340.vo.llnwd.net/01431/04/33/1431643340_l.jpg

Roscomacaw
01-09-2007, 12:19 PM
I wanna echo what bams50 said: "I hear you; but what caught my ear was, "I thought Studebaker people were honest", inferring that you've now found out they're not... my experience is they're a high-quality bunch, and to make a blanket statement like that when you can't yet know if even your seller did anything wrong is unfair!"

One bad apple doesn't mean the world of Studebakering's collapsing in on itself. Your phrasing makes it seem like we all need to re-evaluate our assesment of Studebaker folks. I resent that inferrance.
Yes, in 34 years of Studebakering, I've met some deceptive sorts, but I didn't just paint the whole community with black paint as a result. Anyway..... BTW, be it noted that we've been accused of having a "clique" amongst us forum members and I'm proud TO BE amongst that group, if in fact it does exist outside of the accusers perceptions. For that matter, SDC is a "clique" of sorts.

So, as Jeff said, you're gonna have a thousand bucks in fixing or replacing those two front fenders alone. In fact, a thousand is probably a conservative estimate unless you plan to patch and repair all the rot by yourself. And even if you do do that, what's your time worth?
I'd have looked at this particular example as a fair source of parts at best. Of course, I'm used to seeing lots LESS rusted examples out my way. But, the fact remains that the cost of shipping a solid example east is gonna be way less than patching a rusty one together in the end.
Like the others here - without being able to walk around and closely examine the car in person, the few "facts" and fotos you've provided don't convince me that someone was trying to slip you a fast one.;)

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

53k
01-09-2007, 01:12 PM
I have known the seller for a number of years. He is a used car dealer who makes his money selling cheap cars to people with little money (financing bonanza). He also loves Studebakers. There is no connection between his primary income producing business and his Studebaker interest (other than he stores his Studebakers at one of his lots). I would never have considered him to be dishonest. I certainly suggest calling him and laying out your complaint.
If the frame needs some straightening, there is an old man not far from where you bought the car who has a 1960 Bear frame machine. He can pull damage much more severe than yours with no problem (and he knows how to align king pin cars).

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

studelover
01-09-2007, 09:05 PM
OK, I talked to the seller after I took the car to a friends house to examine the frame and to see why the trunk and hood did not close. As I said in my open "before I throw the guy under the bus" let me talk to him first.He bought the car and really did not touch it after geytting it home(health problems) he is a nice guy I talked to him on the phone then rode out there (very long way from me)to look at the car and then agreed on a price then went and picked the car up so I did not have a lot of time to exaimine the car.After leaving the car with my friends I went to breakfast and when I got back the trunk and hood were opening and closing fine. They told me it was in some kind of collision as the air dam under the car was some what mangled, with floor hooks and come-a-longs they where able to pull it back down and into shape , the rear bumper was pushed in probally from years ago they just racheted it out with the come-a-long and now the trunk closes correctly. I took the car home and now will take it apart and start welding on it. The reason I was so upset was that Studebaker folks have always been very good to me from Mr. Cathcart to Mr. Palmer they go way out of the norm to make sure you are happy, I was spoiled. The Gentleman that sold me the car is no diffrent from them, very nice guy and I trusted him, was on time and did not try to haggle him or get the car for nothing, remember this is the second car I have purchased so I was being careful, with the two cars I know I can make one good car and I have alot of parts to spare so tonite I want all the stude people to know that there reputation is still very good with me and I look forward to enjoying my hawk when it is finished thanks for your response. R. BUllock

Studebakers forever!

gordr
01-09-2007, 10:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by studelover

OK, I talked to the seller after I took the car to a friends house to examine the frame and to see why the trunk and hood did not close. As I said in my open "before I throw the guy under the bus" let me talk to him first.He bought the car and really did not touch it after geytting it home(health problems) he is a nice guy I talked to him on the phone then rode out there (very long way from me)to look at the car and then agreed on a price then went and picked the car up so I did not have a lot of time to exaimine the car.After leaving the car with my friends I went to breakfast and when I got back the trunk and hood were opening and closing fine. They told me it was in some kind of collision as the air dam under the car was some what mangled, with floor hooks and come-a-longs they where able to pull it back down and into shape , the rear bumper was pushed in probally from years ago they just racheted it out with the come-a-long and now the trunk closes correctly. I took the car home and now will take it apart and start welding on it. The reason I was so upset was that Studebaker folks have always been very good to me from Mr. Cathcart to Mr. Palmer they go way out of the norm to make sure you are happy, I was spoiled. The Gentleman that sold me the car is no diffrent from them, very nice guy and I trusted him, was on time and did not try to haggle him or get the car for nothing, remember this is the second car I have purchased so I was being careful, with the two cars I know I can make one good car and I have alot of parts to spare so tonite I want all the stude people to know that there reputation is still very good with me and I look forward to enjoying my hawk when it is finished thanks for your response. R. BUllock

Studebakers forever!


Studelover,

Those front air dams, air scoops, whatever you want to call them; they hang down low in front, and can easily sustain serious damage from a simple bump into a concrete parking lot divider. It's really RARE to find one totally undamaged.

Based on the pictures I've seen, there is no "fresh" collision damage of any significance, but it could have some old un-repaired or partially-repaired damage to it. You have to remember that many Studebakers went through a period in their existence when they were simply cheap-ass transportation, and got the bare minimum of repair and maintenance as a result.

It may be a restorable car, but there's a lot of rust repair to be done. You might well find that your cheapest option is to buy a rust-free coupe or hawk from out West, ship it to your place, and then use the trim and running gear off this Hawk to make it good.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

bams50
01-10-2007, 06:27 AM
Slightly OT, I really love that body style; may just have to get one for myself eventually! [8D]



Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

53k
01-10-2007, 08:14 AM
quote:Originally posted by studelover

OK, I talked to the seller after I took the car to a friends house to examine the frame and to see why the trunk and hood did not close. As I said in my open "before I throw the guy under the bus" let me talk to him first.He bought the car and really did not touch it after geytting it home(health problems) he is a nice guy I talked to him on the phone then rode out there (very long way from me)to look at the car and then agreed on a price then went and picked the car up so I did not have a lot of time to exaimine the car.After leaving the car with my friends I went to breakfast and when I got back the trunk and hood were opening and closing fine. They told me it was in some kind of collision as the air dam under the car was some what mangled, with floor hooks and come-a-longs they where able to pull it back down and into shape , the rear bumper was pushed in probally from years ago they just racheted it out with the come-a-long and now the trunk closes correctly. I took the car home and now will take it apart and start welding on it. The reason I was so upset was that Studebaker folks have always been very good to me from Mr. Cathcart to Mr. Palmer they go way out of the norm to make sure you are happy, I was spoiled. The Gentleman that sold me the car is no diffrent from them, very nice guy and I trusted him, was on time and did not try to haggle him or get the car for nothing, remember this is the second car I have purchased so I was being careful, with the two cars I know I can make one good car and I have alot of parts to spare so tonite I want all the stude people to know that there reputation is still very good with me and I look forward to enjoying my hawk when it is finished thanks for your response. R. BUllock

Studebakers forever!


I'm really happy to hear that it worked out. I had seen the car casually some time back. He had mentioned that he wasn't sure he was up to another restoration due to his health (he has done some really nice cars in the past).
The '61 is my favorite finned Hawk- can't wait to see your finished product.


[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine