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HUB
08-14-2009, 06:37 PM
Been awhile since I've plugged in here. Wish I could say it was because I'd been 24/7 Studebakering but a guy has to earn his crust. So - to get to the point - the auto tranny in my '63 Hawk has a chronic incontinence problem. I keep pouring the trans fluid in at the top and sopping it up out of a boot tray on my garage floor. It shifts and drives but it has a heck of a thirst. My local Ford garage Class A mechanic has done everything he can think of with gaskets and seals to little effect so I think the patient is terminal. Can't get enthused about turning the old tranny over to a transmission shop, maybe I've just heard too many sad stories about those places. Now I have always wished I had a manual trans anyway - is this my chance? What are your thoughts on swaps? Dosn't have to be a Studebaker 4 speed if there are suitable newer 5 spds that would work. Don't want to spend an arm and a leg as the car is decent driver quality only. It has a 289 4V. Anybody gone this route already? All thoughts and opinions welcomed.

Allan - Ontario, Canada
1963 GT Hawk
1964 Daytona Convertible

Roscomacaw
08-14-2009, 06:50 PM
The question foremost in my mind is why you can't discern exactly where this Fligt-o-Matic leaks from[?][?][?] Surely, there's got to be a trail of oozing fluid to trace.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30906179/aview/58_Avatar.jpg
1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

jimmijim8
08-14-2009, 07:06 PM
Front seal. pan gasket, rear seal, shift shaft seal. Leaking fill tube to tranny pan threaded junction. Hole in the tranny syndrome. jimmijim

Stude Junkie+++++++Do it right the f$$$$ Time. Never mind. Just do it right. When youre done your done. You'll know it.

Dick Steinkamp
08-14-2009, 07:27 PM
If you are currently having your car repaired by a shop, can I assume the swap would be done by a shop?

If so, a swap is going to cost you an arm and an leg [^]. First you have to find a shop experienced with Studebakers and with such a swap. Identifying the needed parts and finding them will be a fairly major task. The swap itself is daunting, and if done by someone that can't seal up a Flightomatic, impossible.

Parts are probably closing in on $1500 (more if you want a modern 5 speed). Labor is probably going to be in the $2000 range IF you can find that mechanic familiar with the swap.

The cheapest (maybe best) way out is to get that Flightomatic sealed up. Have you talked with the folks in your local SDC chapter to help find a competent Stude mechanic?



Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics066-2-1.jpg

S2DSteve
08-14-2009, 08:41 PM
Going from an automatic to manual is always a daunting task, unless you have complete donor car to get all the misc parts. Then you'll need an adaptor and a number of other specialized parts to upgrade to a modern 5-speed.

A GM automatic (TH350, 700R4, 200R4 etc.) using any one of several adpators available would be considerably easier/cheaper, although still typically more difficult/expensive than fixing the original.



http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/S2DSteve/Family12-1-2.jpg
Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually (workhorse)
1953 Commander Convertible (show & go)
1953 Champion Starliner (custom/rod project)
1954 Champion Coupe (daily driver)
1960 Hawk (future project?)

HUB
08-14-2009, 09:39 PM
Hello Mr. Biggs - the whole bottom of the tranny looks wet if the car is up on a hoist. Maybe I should get the underside steam cleaned and then take it straight in to the garage?
Appreciate your comments Steve and Dick - not being a mechanic myself I've got little idea what's feasible/economical but enough experience of having vehicles and machinery repaired to know that one sometimes,"opens a can of worms", that leads from one expense to the next.
Shift shaft seal and fill tube junction - next oil change I'll have my mechanic look for those items if he hasn't already jimmijim.
I switched to Hamilton Chapter this season but we're about three to four hours away from the Hamilton area and I rarely have a weekday free.
With all the time I spent in high school learning stuff I've long forgotten I often kick myself that I didn't take auto shop instead! :)

Allan - Ontario, Canada
1963 GT Hawk
1964 Daytona Convertible

sbca96
08-14-2009, 10:27 PM
The swap can be done cheaper IF you can do it yourself, the Hawk frame
has a crossmember already there that with a simple mod can be used to
mount the 700R4 trans.

BUT, what I would try FIRST is when the trans is a quart low, add a
quart of "TransX". This stuff is actually amazing. Retorque the pan
bolts to the factory spec and drive the car 5 miles per directions. I
did this on my wifes '78 Camaro that wouldnt move and leaked like it
was a road oiler .. 'solved' the problem for years!

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

buddymander
08-14-2009, 10:55 PM
Get under the car and bring a roll of bounty paper towels with you. That's how you find a transmission leak. And then find yourself a different mechanic. What kinda yayhoo can't fix a transmission leak; much less find it?

Roscomacaw
08-14-2009, 11:41 PM
Allen,

From the tone of your last post, it's obvious (forgive me if I'm wrong) that you don't likely skin your knuckles on your Studes. Nothing wrong with that so long as A: you can afford such an approach, and B: you've got capable folks to do the work for you.

When you said maybe you should HAVE the underside steam cleaned before taking it to the shop, I gathered you don't do your own wrenching. But bear with me here. You say the whole pan is wet. I don't doubt what you say, but my approach would be to slide under this Hawk, taking a bottle of spray cleaner (409 or Fantastik or the like) and some fresh rags. I'd spray and wipe as much of the tranny as possible and then leave it be for awhile. Say a half hour or an hour or so, then slide back under it with a good flashlight and see if you can see WHERE this fluid's coming from. It doesn't just jump out and flash coat the bottom of the tranny - it's leaking and it should show you where.;)

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30906179/aview/58_Avatar.jpg
1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

Bud
08-15-2009, 10:13 AM
The only reason for a leak that I can think of at the moment is there a crack in the transmission case, torque convertor or pan. If the reseal job was done correctly, the trans shouldn't be leaking. Bud

studebaker-R2-4-me
08-17-2009, 07:24 AM
My 64 Hawk powershift transmission leaked until I had it rebuilt. Most of the transmission oil leaks from the transmission shift arms. Plain and simple for your transmission the seals have shrunk the oil pours out of them.

I find now the rebuilt I have will leak out of the propeller shaft. I have a small pin hole in it. It starts the leak when the torque converter drains after sitting for 5 or so days.

I know of a retired transmission rebuilder in Southern Ontario but you have to get that transmission out of the car. He does not do that, he is strictly a bench mechanic.

All of my stuff is in storage right so passing on his number is out of the question. If you are doing a rebuild this fall/winter and want his number I can help you out when my stuff is out of storage...

Allen





http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o278/studebaker-r2-4-me/Side.jpg
1964 R2 GT Hawk
http://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o278/studebaker-r2-4-me/th_IMGP0662-2.jpg
1963 Daytona Convertible
Oakville, Ontario.
Hamilton Chapter
See you in Cedar Rapids Summer 2009

DEEPNHOCK
08-17-2009, 08:18 AM
We are here to help you Allen....

My advice?

Fix it.

Having a 45 year old car leak is not uncommon.

Tossing out a leaking trans for a swap on 'a driver' is going to be expensive.

You will be money ahead having your trans rebuilt with all new seals.

Then, you will have a trans that will probably outlive you, and you won't be leaking all that trans fluid...

And your Hawk will be back out on the road sooner.

IMOHO
Jeff[8D]

DEEPNHOCK
08-17-2009, 08:26 AM
What crossmember is that, Tom?
Got a pic?
A 700R4 swap will also mean an adapter plate kit, a driveshaft change/mod/swap, and shift quadrant mods, and shift cable mods...
Not so easy for 'a driver'.

Trans-x (or whatever the soup dejour is) basically swells all the rubber stuff up inside.
It does what it does, and can work, but I'd only consider it in my Studes as a last resort...
(might fit Allen's situation)
A straight Stude trans for Stude trans swap would be easier and faster....
A straight up rebuild would be fastest and probably cheapest...


quote:Originally posted by sbca96

The swap can be done cheaper IF you can do it yourself, the Hawk frame
has a crossmember already there that with a simple mod can be used to
mount the 700R4 trans.

BUT, what I would try FIRST is when the trans is a quart low, add a
quart of "TransX". This stuff is actually amazing. Retorque the pan
bolts to the factory spec and drive the car 5 miles per directions. I
did this on my wifes '78 Camaro that wouldnt move and leaked like it
was a road oiler .. 'solved' the problem for years!

Tom

WCP
08-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Allen, sounds like the front pump seal is bad. The trans will have to come out to replace the seal. There should be a shop near you that can handle the rebuild. A friend in Burlington could probably recommend a rebuilder - I'll ask him. If the trans were out of the car, I could handle the rebuild, but being in Kingston isn't much help, unless you can get the tranny to Napanee. E-mail me and I'll try to get a shop recommendation near you. Bill

sbca96
08-17-2009, 02:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

What crossmember is that, Tom?
Got a pic?
A 700R4 swap will also mean an adapter plate kit, a driveshaft change/mod/swap, and shift quadrant mods, and shift cable mods...
Not so easy for 'a driver'.

Trans-x (or whatever the soup dejour is) basically swells all the rubber stuff up inside.
It does what it does, and can work, but I'd only consider it in my Studes as a last resort...
(might fit Allen's situation)
A straight Stude trans for Stude trans swap would be easier and faster....
A straight up rebuild would be fastest and probably cheapest...

The crossmember is the one that runs from a-pillar to a-pillar. The
mod is to remove it, and remove about an inch from the front edge in
the area where the pan is, then weld flat stock back in. I just cut
the edge off to the factory weld and moved my engine forward roughly
1/4 inch. I used an early 70's Chevelle driveshaft that fit perfect.
I think it was 15 bucks? I used a B&M shifter, and since this swap
is quite common among brand X cars, there are a lot of retro shifters
out there to finish it off nicely. I did the swap while driving the
car daily, and on a mininum wage budget. The adapter price is almost
the same still, the TH700's are about a 1/3 the cost they used to be,
and all the trimmings are readily available from multiple sources.

The TransX works the best out of any I have seen or heard about. I was
refering to a last resort type fix. Worst case, it DOESNT work and it
still means pulling the trans and having it rebuilt.

Tom

rockinhawk
08-17-2009, 03:08 PM
TransX is good stuff. There usta be a product called TransMedic that was also good,but I haven't seen any of it in years. Something that has worked for me in the past is a dose of DOT3 brake fluid in the trans. The brake fluid will soften and swell the seals for awhile. My son drove a 65 Daytona 4 years with brake fluid in it. NT


Neil Thornton
Hazlehurst, GA
'57 Silver Hawk
'56 Sky Hawk
'51 2R16 dump truck
Many others.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/mbstude/avatar2.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
08-17-2009, 03:37 PM
OK, Similar the the one Jim Pepper did in TW a month or so ago... But you did yours a long time ago...
I just had to picture it in my head..
That answered my question.
Thanks,
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by sbca96
The crossmember is the one that runs from a-pillar to a-pillar. The
mod is to remove it, and remove about an inch from the front edge in
the area where the pan is, then weld flat stock back in. I just cut
the edge off to the factory weld and moved my engine forward roughly
1/4 inch. I used an early 70's Chevelle driveshaft that fit perfect.
I think it was 15 bucks? I used a B&M shifter, and since this swap
is quite common among brand X cars, there are a lot of retro shifters
out there to finish it off nicely. I did the swap while driving the
car daily, and on a mininum wage budget. The adapter price is almost
the same still, the TH700's are about a 1/3 the cost they used to be,
and all the trimmings are readily available from multiple sources.

sbca96
08-17-2009, 06:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

OK, Similar the the one Jim Pepper did in TW a month or so ago... But you did yours a long time ago...
I just had to picture it in my head..
That answered my question.
Thanks,
Jeff[8D]


Yah, something like 1994 I think. Trans was a 1989 RS Camaro. Back in
that time frame a TH700 was about $1000 to $1500 (I paid $300). Thanks
for the reminder, I let my membership lapse .. I think I missed one or
two TW's. I cant seem to get the website to allow me to renew...[B)]

Tom

bige
08-17-2009, 06:23 PM
The only problems I've had with the Avanti have been the result of the transmission swap I did 5 years ago. Your trans is not complicated and can be resealed for a lot less than any swap you would consider.

My saga started with a cracked flex-plate and snowballed into a trans swap that in the in the long run has cost me at least $7,000, 2 tows, 4 different transmissions, months and months of my time and 3 Summers of not having the use of my car.

Re-seal the Stude trans and enjoy your car.


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
On its way to a 15.097 Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Spring 2006.

Kenmike2
08-18-2009, 12:06 AM
Had a BW 35 tranny rebuilt for my '63 Cruiser in 1998. It's being abused by a Avanti cammed, 289 on a daily basis and is still going strong with absolutely no shift problems.
Here's what I'd do. Go to your local tranny shops and inquire about anyone who might have retired recently. Get their name and contact info. Contact them and ask if they remember these Stude 2-spd automatic. If they say yes, try to contract them to do one more overhaul. I've done this on 2 occasions and found two different and very very good technicians who really enjoy getting their hands dirty again. They've actually become friends of mine and we work together any time I have tranny questions in my shop.
Regard
Ken Michael

sbca96
08-18-2009, 01:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by bige

My saga started with a cracked flex-plate and snowballed into a trans swap that in the in the long run has cost me at least $7,000, 2 tows, 4 different transmissions, months and months ....

Wow, I think I spent about $1000 total, and put 20k trouble free miles
on the car before I totalled it.[:0]

Tom

HUB
08-20-2009, 06:57 PM
Hi Guys - really appreciate the time you've taken to share your thoughts. A couple of weeks holiday coming up here where I'll have to pry myself away from the Hawk & Daytona. After that I'll try Mr. Biggs clean & inspect suggestion to see if there are obvious sources to report here. I'm no mechanic and won't pretend to be - just a Studebaker nut of 1951 vintage who had to wait until the 21st century to own and drive the cars he daydreamed his way through high school with.
If I decide to go the full rebuild route R2-4-me, I'll appreciate any references to Southern Ontario transmission mechanics.
Napanee is not out of the question WCP - I'm 5 hours away but can easily get it there. I take it you've done this rebuild yourself Bill.

Allan - Ontario, Canada
1963 GT Hawk
1964 Daytona Convertible

WCP
08-21-2009, 01:44 PM
Allen, the bulk of my experience has been rebuilding Avanti powershifts, and a couple Ford cast irons. Your trans shouldn't be a problem. I have enough parts to do 2 more trans, I think, and have a powershift core that I'm planning on rebuilding someday. That leaves one set of parts available. Seal kits are not the problem. Hardware such as bushings, servos and thrust washers can be. Until you get into the unit, you never know what hardware items will need replacing. BTW, I don't profess to be fast, but thorough.

warrlaw1
08-21-2009, 02:04 PM
H'lo Hub. I'm just north of Toronto and that's where the best old school tranny builder is in our area. Try Lawrence Classic Transmissions just south of Finch in the west end around Islington. My 55 DG 250 is totally rebuilt, Torque Converter included for way under 2 large and with a warranty. They will all leak somewhat, but not as bad as yours. WCP seems to have some good suggestions, too.

HUB
08-21-2009, 07:47 PM
Thanks guys - by the way - some of you say reseal and some say rebuild. Am I right in assuming that resealing is a lesser surgery than rebuilding and I presume there are different stages of rebuild. As I mentioned, the trans seems to function smoothly enough so I assume the "internals" must be fair enough. The speedo ws wobbly when I got the Hawk and doesn't function at all now (but suddenly did for a few miles in the spring - then wobbled and went dormant again), so I think I'm around 98-100,000 miles on the car.

Allan - Ontario, Canada
1963 GT Hawk
1964 Daytona Convertible

sbca96
08-21-2009, 10:18 PM
You might consider trying the TransX, it honestly cant hurt.

Tom

WCP
08-22-2009, 02:49 PM
After that number of miles, you can expect to replace all of the rubber seals to restore proper performance and quite likely the front band and friction and driven plates. If the servo seals are sufficiently worn, the pistons will score the cylinders and the servo cylinder may need replacing. There is no substitute for doing it right. The longer you wait, the greater the potential damage and subsequent cost to correct. The speedo problem is probably due to a broken inner core. A new cable should correct that.

HUB
08-22-2009, 11:45 PM
Thanks to all for your input. Will be away from the online world for a few weeks now but will look in again when we return. See ya in September! :-)

Allan - Ontario, Canada
1963 GT Hawk
1964 Daytona Convertible