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Randy_G
01-04-2007, 10:08 PM
The Lark has been sitting from what I can gather around 25 years. I know that the master cylinder is shot. Do you think I should replace the brakes lines as well as the hose's. I have not checked the shoes on the car, but I doubt that they are in any condition to stay on the car. One more thing, I was reading on another post that the rear brake drums need a special puller? If so any idea where I can purchase this little jewel at? Thanks for all your help Guys.

Randy_G
South Bend or Bust 2007!
www.AutomotiveHistoryOnline.com
http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/small59.jpg

GTtim
01-04-2007, 10:20 PM
The usual recommendation is to replace all the brake lines and hoses after that amount of time. Problem is that they can rust from the inside leaving the wall of the tube very thin. Hoses get brittle and are likely to crack, they can also fail internally, allowing leaks. It isn't an easy task, or inexpensive, but when you push the pedal, you really don't want it to go to the floor without stopping you! The puller that is required is available from several Stude vendors. Again, it isn't cheap, but you get what you pay for. The inexpensive ones, usually end up costing more, because you have to replace them after they break. I know that first-hand. The absolute requirement is that they need 3 legs to attach to the wheel lug bolt studs. Sometimes you can find them on eBay. Here's one that looks right. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-Leg-Brake-Drum-Wheel-Hub-Puller-Snap-On-Hudson-Ford_W0QQitemZ160070527139QQihZ006QQcategoryZ43996QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

Dick Steinkamp
01-04-2007, 10:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by GTtim
The puller that is required is available from several Stude vendors. Again, it isn't cheap, but you get what you pay for.


What Tim said.

A good puller is about $150 or so. Some are cheaper. Anybody living within commute distance of me is welcome to borrow mine (shipping is kinda expensive)



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/344438331_34aef71cb0_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

Roscomacaw
01-05-2007, 02:36 PM
That fateful moment - when you step on the pedal and it just goes to the floor - you won't have time to think about how you saved a few bucks by not replacing those rubber brake lines.[}:)] Not to worry tho, you'll have plenty of time in that hospital bed!:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

chocolate turkey
01-06-2007, 09:21 AM
As always, don't compromise on the brake systems. Replace parts that are likely worn/weathered/compromised by time. The costs are still very reasonable. Just do it.:)

Brian K. Curtis

Dick Steinkamp
01-06-2007, 09:53 AM
quote:Originally posted by chocolate turkey

As always, don't compromise on the brake systems. Replace parts that are likely worn/weathered/compromised by time. The costs are still very reasonable. Just do it.:)


If the car quits while driving, it's a big inconvenience. If the brakes quit...that's a whole different story [:0]



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/344438331_34aef71cb0_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

whacker
01-06-2007, 10:21 AM
Here is a link to a page that will show you how to make a puller that will work:

https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/parts/html/pages/wheelpuller.html

bradnree
01-06-2007, 12:29 PM
I am presently replacing/rebuilding everything for brakes on a '52 Commander. This car had been stored for 37 years, the cylinders were frozen, rubber hoses hardly had a passage way for fluid. I'm having the shoes relined. I lost brakes on a '39 Ford street rod in DesMoines due to a loose connection at a splitter and luckily the e-brake got me safely to a dealer for repair. Brake redo is cheap if you use the "Big Box" auto parts stores. I also have exhaust redone front to back for safety.....Brad

CHAMP
01-06-2007, 12:58 PM
I have to agree that brake work is cheap as compared to what a brake failure could cost!!!

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

sbca96
01-06-2007, 07:36 PM
When going through all the trouble of replacing the steel lines, and
the master cylinder, take the extra simple step to plumb everything
for a dual master cylinder if you werent lucky enough to have one on
the car from the factory (I dont remember when Larks started getting
them, might still be under the floor on that year?)

As I have always maintained on this and other forums, not doing all
possible to make sure your car will stop is irresponsible.

If you make the mistake of not wearing your seatbelt in MY Avanti,
you'll end up on the hood![:p];)

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/cobra_install/cobra_install023a.jpg

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

DEEPNHOCK
01-06-2007, 07:55 PM
Now that would be a fun deal at a Stude meet...
The drags are cool, but a G-tech deal would be fun too.
Imagine a big ol' parking lot.
Mark a strip to get going, and a braking area...
Measure it off and do some braking run off's..
See how fast you can go, in say... 300 feet.
Then see how fast you can stop.
Should be slow enough as not to scare people, but you could strut your Stude stuff.
Hmmmmmmm.... (thinking about abandoned malls in South Bend[}:)])
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by sbca96
If you make the mistake of not wearing your seatbelt in MY Avanti,
you'll end up on the hood![:p];)


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Dick Steinkamp
01-06-2007, 08:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

Now that would be a fun deal at a Stude meet...


I'm with you, Jeff. I would like to see a Stop-a-Thon at South Bend. A mall parking lot might not be big enough...I think the stops should be from 60 or 70 MPH.

My contention is that a '54 and up DRUM braked Stude will stop as good (or better) than many aftermarket disc conversions (tire size being equal). I think a true (Studebaker) engineering TEAM from the 50's and 60's might more than make up for a solo effort from this century.

It would be fun (and interesting) to see what actually happens when the rubber meets the road [8D]

SBCA, I've just got to say that I think your Avanti would look a lot better lower. The combination of the BIG mid 20th century wheel well openings and the super low profile 21st century tires just don't make it for me. I like both looks, but not together. The super low profile tires look great (IMHO) with the wheel well opening sized to the tire...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/142004006_ff79986bbe.jpg

The only way to do that with the Avanti is to get it lower. Maybe photoshop it and see what you think.






http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/344438331_34aef71cb0_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

DEEPNHOCK
01-06-2007, 08:42 PM
Well, I'll volunteer to let myself, and my truck, look stupid...
I'll mash all the pedals in my truck as hard as I can...[:0]
(I love tire smoke[:p])
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

I'm with you, Jeff. I would like to see a Stop-a-Thon at South Bend. A mall parking lot might not be big enough...I think the stops should be from 60 or 70 MPH.



quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

Now that would be a fun deal at a Stude meet...




http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

mbstude
01-06-2007, 08:59 PM
quote:I'll mash all the pedals in my truck as hard as I can...


I thought you weren't going to scare anyone? :D That little truck will throw you in the bed... [:0][8D]


Then through the windshield.:)

___________________________________________

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, Georgia
'59 Scotsman PU
'63 Daytona HT

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/mbstude/Scotsman%20pickup/cool_man_3.jpg

http://mbstudebaker.blogspot.com/

GTtim
01-06-2007, 09:15 PM
Sounds like a neat deal to me. I'm game. I just rebuilt the whole front suspension and put in new rotors. We can see what the stock stuff can do.



quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

Well, I'll volunteer to let myself, and my truck, look stupid...
I'll mash all the pedals in my truck as hard as I can...[:0]
(I love tire smoke[:p])
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

I'm with you, Jeff. I would like to see a Stop-a-Thon at South Bend. A mall parking lot might not be big enough...I think the stops should be from 60 or 70 MPH.



quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

Now that would be a fun deal at a Stude meet...




http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock



Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

sntsftbll
01-06-2007, 11:11 PM
Okay since talk is about rebuilding the whole system, the smart way to go. I have a question, Silicone or DOT fluid? I know there must be opinions on both out there. What do you all think?

Dick Steinkamp
01-06-2007, 11:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by sntsftbll
Silicone or DOT fluid? What do you all think?


If you're going to rebuild the whole system, Silicone is the way to go. The ONLY downside (IMHO) is the cost of the fluid. But for an extra $20 or so you'll save those cylinders and hard lines virtually for ever. I'd still bleed the system every couple of years even with the silicone, however.

The stock brake light switches can be prone to early failure with the silicone but Ron Francis and others (Harley Davidson for one) sell ones that work fine with silicone AND turn on quicker than the stock type.



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/344438331_34aef71cb0_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

sbca96
01-07-2007, 04:31 AM
I posted my G-tech results with the "little" 11 inch vented GT brakes
months ago. It hasnt been possible to retest since the installation
of the 13 inch Cobra brakes since the power steering system has now
gone kaput. I havent seen any results from the two established Stude
disc brake vendors. I remember reading a test of the Avanti way back
when that claimed a 129 foot 60-0. Considering that your anti-lock
braked cars of today have trouble matching that, its a hard claim to
believe. I dont remember where I read that, and I have not been able
to find it since.

For comparison, the 2005 C6 Corvette Z06, weighing only 3200 pounds,
stops from 60 mph in 110 feet. Its VERY hard to believe that a 3500
pound Avanti on skinny bias ply tires, and no anti-lock could do 129.

http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/chevrolet_c6.htm


quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

[navy][b]Now that would be a fun deal at a Stude meet...
The drags are cool, but a G-tech deal would be fun too.

As far as the wheel opening, we have gone through this already, the
rolling diameter of the Cobra wheel/tire is just slightly smaller than
the factory Stude wheel/tire. The frame is lower now than factory,
& the reason the wheel opening looks so huge is because of the design
of the Avanti wheel opening. Its the nature of the beast. I would
like to lower it, and have considered it, but bringing the wheel out
further gets it dangerously close to that front drop area of the wheel
opening. The Avanti IIs are KNOWN for cracked fenders due to the tire
hitting the fender on a turn/bump. The BMW you show there has a much
larger wheel, I am only running a 17" wheel. Stock was 15", think of
the flat face of the wheel edge as a "white wall" and you will see how
its not much different than the original hub cap/white wall tall side
wall look that all factory Avantis have. The rear is higher now than
in this picture, I replaced the reversed arc rear springs :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantioldimages/Avantiold2.jpg
http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantioldimages/Avanti_in_2006.jpg

Tom

John Kirchhoff
01-07-2007, 11:35 AM
I see silicone brake fluid as a lot like motor oil; it's great stuff as long as it's in the right place. Your crankcase is a right place, the living room carpet is the wrong place. The silicone brake fluid is handy stuff since it won't eat paint away and doesn't absorb moisture. However, the latter is why I'll never us it in older brake systems where the master cylinder is open to the atmosphere. As you all know, by the early 70's master cylinders had the little rubber bellows under the cap. As the brakes wore and fluid levels in the reservior dropped, the bellows maintained a barrier between the fluid and the outside amosphere. Without the bellows, as the fluid level drops, moisture laden air is pulled in. People dislike the way regular brake fluid absorbs moisture, but that's actually an advantage on old systems because it keeps the water in suspension and away from metal parts. Only after is it saturated with water and can't suspend any more does the water settle out and rust things up. Since silicone fluid doesn't absorb moisture, any water that enters the system immediately settles to the bottom and starts eating on metal parts. As far as moisture control goes, new silicon fluid is no better than old, long past due changed conventional fluid. If you have a master cylinder with the rubber bellows, it's fine but you'll never see the stuff in my old Stude. Instead, I'll just change the fluid every few years. Moisture may not be a problem in places like L.A. or Las Vegas, but it is elsewhere. I'm in Missouri and this morning it's sunny but water is dripping from the undersides of the metal roof INSIDE buildings, so believe me, there's plenty of moisture in the air.

Dick Steinkamp
01-07-2007, 12:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

I see silicone brake fluid as a lot like motor oil...


The big diff (IMHO) is that DOT 3 fluid is hygroscopic and DOT 5 isn't. That is, DOT 3 ATTRACTS and absorbs moisture. There is certainly opportunities for water to get in any brake system, but far greater with DOT 3 since it is attracting and absorbing any water in the air that may sit on top of the M/C. In a DOT 5 system, liquid water would have to be introduced into the system.

I do have DOT 3 in 3 of my current 4 Studes. Like you I change the fluid every couple of years. I agree that if Stude owners do this, the DOT 3 will work fine. I wonder how many do, however. (did you read the letter to the editor in the latest TW about a brake failure on a long distance trip to the Omaha meet? Owner was somewhat surprised that his 45 year old brake hose failed [:0]. I wonder what the rest of the brake system looked like? [xx(])

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/344438331_34aef71cb0_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

CHAMP
01-07-2007, 01:19 PM
I first started using DOT-5 many years ago in my BMW motorcycle. Two years later the brake fluid was still clear as when I put it in. With the DOT-3 the fluid the brake fluid would start getting darker in two to three months. That was sold me on DOT-5. I have not had any of the problems that some have spoke of. No brakelight switch problems, No soft or hard pedal. Back in the late seventies early eighties when the Corvettes were having problems with the four piston calipers leaking the fix was stainless steel sleeves in the calipers and DOT-5 brake fluid. Until something better comes along DOT-5 will be the brake fluid I use in my cars!!!:)

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

mbstude
01-07-2007, 01:28 PM
We parted out a '63 Cruiser a few years ago. The shell is still at the shop. We had a chapter meeting at out shop, and one of the members wanted the rear end from the car. Another guy wanted the rubber brake line. [:0][xx(] Before he could get the line, the other guy had already cut it to remove the rear end. He was upset[8], but that's better than being in a wreck. [^]

___________________________________________

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, Georgia
'59 Scotsman PU
'63 Daytona HT

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/mbstude/Scotsman%20pickup/cool_man_3.jpg

http://mbstudebaker.blogspot.com/

bams50
01-07-2007, 07:41 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by bams50

So, when you did the brakes on the Lark wagon, did you use 3 or 5?



3...I was on a budget :D




That's it- I'm not interested anymore!!!!:D


Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

bams50
01-07-2007, 08:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
[br

If you're going to rebuild the whole system, Silicone is the way to go. The ONLY downside (IMHO) is the cost of the fluid. But for an extra $20 or so you'll save those cylinders and hard lines virtually for ever.


So, when you did the brakes on the Lark wagon, did you use 3 or 5?
Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

Dick Steinkamp
01-07-2007, 08:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by bams50

So, when you did the brakes on the Lark wagon, did you use 3 or 5?



3...I was on a budget :D



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/344438331_34aef71cb0_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

John Kirchhoff
01-07-2007, 08:24 PM
A brake hose lasting ONLY 45 years??? That's a perfect example of how the American workmanship has gone downhill! I would have expected it to have lasted at least 75! Seriously, I get the feeling that hose would have gone sooner if an emergency situation had arisen that required a panic stop. If it had, the panic would have still been there but the stop wouldn't have except for the sudden one at the end.

Yes Champ, I change fluid on my bike also but still use DOT 3. Other than adding stainless brake hoses and changing pads, I've done nothing to the system in 27 years and I can still make the front wheel howl. I think changing fluid is one of the best cost to benefit yet least recognized maintenance items.

John Kirchhoff
01-07-2007, 08:26 PM
A brake hose lasting ONLY 45 years??? That's a perfect example of how the American workmanship has gone downhill! I would have expected it to have lasted at least 75! Seriously, I get the feeling that hose would have gone sooner if an emergency situation had arisen that required a panic stop. If it had, the panic would have still been there but the stop wouldn't have except for the sudden one at the end.

Yes Champ, I change fluid on my bike also but still use DOT 3. Other than adding stainless brake hoses and changing pads, I've done nothing to the system in 27 years and I can still make the front wheel howl. I think changing fluid is one of the best cost to benefit yet least recognized maintenance items.

sbca96
01-07-2007, 10:51 PM
I used Prestone DOT 3 Synthetic .... also make sure you check that
single rear brake flex line, mine was worn through from rubbing on
something, now I have two with the rear disc brakes - 98 Mustang GT.
I could have used the stock hose, with the Tee, and added a rubber
flex hose at each caliper, but I wanted to eliminate the hard to get
stuff and end up with replacements I can buy at Autozone. - Tom

http://www.prestone.com/products/functionalFluids.php#functionalFluids1

Prestone® Synthetic Brake Fluid is designed to provide a high margin of boiling point protection.  The proprietary mix of polyglycol ethers ensures hot brake system operation will not create dangerous liquid vapor.  This delivers braking power when needed by avoiding a spongy peddle.  Both wet and dry boiling points exceed the minimum government standards.  A comprehensive inhibitor package protects vital brake system metals.

Minimum Dry Boiling Point 470F (243C).
Minimum Wet Boiling Point 284F (140C).
Prestone® brand Synthetic Brake Fluid is designed for safe operation of today’s modern brake systems.
Excellent for ABS, disc and drum brake systems.
Complies with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 116, Meets SAE Spec, J1703.

CHAMP
01-08-2007, 08:29 AM
I can't go along with DOT-3 being cheaper because it has been my experience that the DOT-5 will last much longer.

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

skyway
01-09-2007, 02:23 PM
Anybody out there using DOT 4, and to what sucess?

I understood that DOT 4 had much lower moisture retention than DOT 3, but did not necessitate the complete purging of the system, that is required before going with DOT 5, not to mention that business about DOT 5 leaking past wheel cylinder seals, and causing premature stop light switch failure.

Anyway, I've used DOT 4 for years, and it seems to have eliminated the crystallization (think old honey)of brake fluid in the wheel cylinders of cars that sit for long preiods of time. Seems like I used to have to rebuild the front wheel cylinders on my Hawk almost every spring. No longer the case with DOT 4.

52 Ragtop
01-14-2007, 11:00 PM
"tecnically" I've read where brake hoses should be replaced every 2-3 years! as they begin to break down after time and lots of use! Not 100% convinced of that, but no mORE then 5 years this should be done! and a GOOD inspection every spring time, and if you have ANY dought, replace the damn $29 hose!

Jim

DEEPNHOCK
01-15-2007, 08:28 AM
Having spent quite a while in the rubber industry, I can tell you that the 'industry standard' for the 'shelf life' of nitrile rubber was 5 to 7 years.
What that means to a Stude guy?
(probably 50 years +;))
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by 52 Ragtop

"tecnically" I've read where brake hoses should be replaced every 2-3 years! as they begin to break down after time and lots of use! Not 100% convinced of that, but no mORE then 5 years this should be done! and a GOOD inspection every spring time, and if you have ANY dought, replace the damn $29 hose!

Jim


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

N8N
01-15-2007, 08:51 AM
I agree with regular hose replacements; if nothing else by the time they start to look really bad you likely won't be able to get them off! I've replaced the front hoses on my 944 but still have yet to take a serious stab at replacing the rears; they're a bit tight after 20 years!

oh, yeah, vice grips over the flare wrenches - that helps.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

53k
01-15-2007, 10:26 AM
quote:Originally posted by sntsftbll

Okay since talk is about rebuilding the whole system, the smart way to go. I have a question, Silicone or DOT fluid? I know there must be opinions on both out there. What do you all think?


I had converted everything to silicone in the past, but I have found that silicone will find leaks that DOT-3 will ignore. White Post Restorations recommends not using DOT-5 with the re-sleeved cylinders they do. I also find silicone harder to bleed- seems to develop bubbles or something.



[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/R-4.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64L.JPG[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/64P.jpg[/img=right][img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/53K.jpg[/img=right]Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine