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Aussie Hawk
07-10-2009, 03:59 PM
I'm planning on having the tranny out of my '62 Hawk rebuilt, I actually found a guy that worked on Stude boxes back when - pretty rare here in OZ. I have been told of a 289 engine and tranny for sale out of a '64,(no details of what model). This may seem like a really dumb question, but would this set up be the same as the engine and trany in my Hawk? I'm under a little pressure as the old guy is closing his auto tranny business this year 'some time', and my Hawk tranny is still in the vehicle, so I'm thinking of buying this other one and getting it rebuilt. I'm also going to get some head work done, will they be interchangable?

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

StudeRich
07-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Yes as long as the Trans. is a Column shift (Flight-O-Matic) and not a Power Shift (floor shift) it will interchange exactly with no modifications.

The Heads also will be fine, if it is a South Bend built car for
in-Country sale, the head casting numbers would be different but interchange just fine. On export cars they could be all the same low compression heads, I don't know.

If you should decide to replace an early '62 partial flow block with a '64 full-flow block, the only difference will be the right head pipe will not clear the oil filter adapter and filter.

StudeRich

Aussie Hawk
07-10-2009, 05:06 PM
Floor shift boxes here are few and far between, but I'll check before buying. I only intend to use the heads off the engine so the 'partial flow Vs full flow' won't be an issue, besides, someone has fitted a remote set up on my Hawk, with the oilfilter cartridge holder mounted on the firewall. You say the export engines possibly had low comp heads, so this should suit the Paxton S.C I'm planning on fitting, right? (I could be wrong, but I think we got a lot of Canadian built cars down here).

STOP PRESS - STOP PRESS.
I've just been told it's a 259, if this is right it can't be a '64 can it?
Didn't Stude stop making them way before '64? And if indeed it is a 259,(and they got the year wrong), will the tranny still fit my 289 '62 Hawk? And are the 259 heads the same as the 289's ?

Cheers

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

StudeRich
07-10-2009, 05:22 PM
On these "unusual" cars, you would have to get the Head "Casting Number" from the center port, not to be confused with the "Part Number", to determine what you have.

Over here, our '63-'64 Larks/Hawks had the R1 Avanti Head 1557570 Casting number, which gave us 8.5 with stock Std. 289 deep dish pistons, or 10.25 with flat-top Avanti pistons both using the thin beaded steel gaskets. [^]

Your experience MAY vary! [:0]

StudeRich

StudeRich
07-10-2009, 05:30 PM
YES and YES, don't panic, you didn't actually think STUDEBAKER would CHANGE anything did you? :D

The 259 Torque Converter, if re-used would have a slightly lower stall speed, not such that you would notice and the re-builders get them all mixed up anyway.

There would be NO reason to cancel the 259, it was the BIGGEST seller!

Edit: However, the Trans. is kind of a moot point anyway, because when you install the Paxton you are going to want a H.D. oil cooled Flight-O-Matic, Power Shift or 4 Speed anyway!
Studebaker only built a few '63 R1 Larks/Hawks with the FOM, before replacing it with the H.D. FOM, for a good reason...too much torque!

StudeRich

Aussie Hawk
07-10-2009, 05:39 PM
I sort of got the idea a while ago that Studebaker didn't change things much - the tapered, keywayed rear axel gave that away:D But I'll still get the casting numbers off it and check back in here at Stude Central:) Before buying. Thanks for the help.

RE: The HD tranny - thanks for the heads up. I'll still check out the engine and box on sale, I might just be lucky and find it has the HD oil cooler set up at least, I think they only used those on Taxis and cop cars here. I have serious doubts that any 4 speed boxes ever came to OZ.

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

Aussie Hawk
07-10-2009, 10:21 PM
OK, been to visit the engine and tranny for sale, the seller said he was told it was out of a '63/'64 Cruiser. The numbers are as follows.

Engine No. It was hard to read because of the position of the engine, and the numbers I got don't make sense according to my workshop manual - they looked like these: P VA415 (The 'A' could be a 4, they were badly punched). On the front of the block behind the water pump were following raised numbers cast in: There was a '3' above the centre of the following - 1554641.

The Head numbers were raised and cast on the centre ports, exhaust side: 1557582, with a '3' under them in the middle.

The Tranny:
I couldn't see any provision for cooling hoses, but there were a couple of threaded plugs on the left hand side. The original identification has gone, but someone has made up another ally plate in the same place with this stamped into it - A58 50.

Cast into the box on the top right hand side;
L36 - 3 (the '6' could be a 3 or 8?) + 5C-1

Cast into the box on the left hand side;
WG DIV + N2

Even though I'm fitting the Paxton to my 289 Hawk mainly for bragging rights, and may test it out very occasionaly, do you still think I need a HD cooled FOM?

Appreciate any help.

Cheers

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

wcarroll@outrageous.net
07-11-2009, 12:26 AM
I think those heads are low compression (7:1) truck heads.

Usually a P followed by another letter indicates a 289 if it's an early 60's block. Later blocks used letters and numbers to denote what month the block was made and what year/model it was for.

But the V doesn't correspond to a month because the letters A-M were used (excluding I and L) to represent the 12 months.

Not exactly sure on the FOM, but I don't think they all came with provisions for cooling lines. If I remember correctly the HDFOM should have them on the passenger side (the left side of the car if you're looking at it straight on ;)).

What side are the two plugs on and where are they located?

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

Aussie Hawk
07-11-2009, 03:06 AM
The plugs on the FOM are; 1 - in front of the selector shaft & 2nd - behind the selector shaft.

The 'V' in the engine number didn't make any sense to me either. So long as the heads will fit the 289 in my '62 Hawk. I'd still like more opinions on whether I need a HDFOM if I'm fitting a Paxton S.C. to my Hawk. As I said it'll mainly be for bragging rights, but may give a bit of stick occasionaly, purely in the name of science:D. No really, I don't drive my Hawk hard.

Cheers

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

Rerun
07-11-2009, 05:14 AM
The plugs for the cooling lines would be located on the opposite side of the transmission from the selector shaft. That would be the passenger side of a LHD car. I assume that yours is a RHD, so they would be found on the driver's side, one high in front, and one low toward the rear of the case, IIRC. I'm not sure if all of the cases were drilled for the cooling fittings, but I would guess that they were. Of course, using the cooling lines would require having a radiator that has an oil cooler, or installing an external oil cooler. I would also look for NOS adapter fittings which probably have a restrictor to prevent too much fluid from circulating though the cooler.

IMHO, a properly rebuilt FOM (with new clutches and bands) will be fine for your application as long as you're not towing or otherwise abusing it.

Even though you have found a mechanic experienced in the older transmissions, I would recommend getting the shop manual and following it closely. There are a couple of subtle, but important, issues that can easily be overlooked. Proper orientation of the clutch plates and friction disc comes to mind.

Jim Bradley
Lewistown PA
'78 Avanti II
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/bradley71771/DSCF3919E2.jpg

Aussie Hawk
07-11-2009, 04:49 PM
Thanks Jim,

Based on your description of where the cooler line plugs are located, the FOM I'm looking at buying is not a HD. When I was initially talking to the guy who will be rebuilding my FOM, he brought out an old workshop manaul that covered not only Stude's but Nash, Packard, Rambler and some others. But I will also loan him my own Stude workshop manual for extra info, now that you have brought the 'subtle' issues to my attention.

I won't be using my Hawk for towing, and certainly not abusing it, so I'm going to stick with the standard FOM, when I fit the Paxton. I doubt I could easily find a HD model anyway, as I mentioned before, from my information they were only used down here in Taxis and police cars. Based on the limited numbers of Studes imported into OZ, and the even smaller number used as Taxis and police cars the chance of finding one are fairly remote.

Thank you all for you help. Any more suggestions on identification of the heads being high or low compression would also be helpful.

Regards

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

StudeRich
07-11-2009, 07:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by Aussie Hawk

Thank you all for you help. Any more suggestions on identification of the heads being high or low compression would also be helpful.


Matt, I am pretty sure that those 1557582 casting number heads are the Part # 1557580 Heads in the Parts Catalog as '63-'64 export low Comp. Heads about 7.0 with thick Gasket, 7.5 with thin.

That block P(V?) A415 seems to me must most likely be a "C" instead of a V. That would make it a late '64 Canadian built 289 (actually an early Canadian '64, built the first month of Canada only Production), built Jan. 15th 1964

Don't you know Jim Quigley over there? He knows all about the Aussie "R" Series cars etc. and can tell you all you want to know about Studes. and Transmissions >great guy! I think his perfect Strato Blue '64 GT Hawk does in fact have the Power Shift and was built for OZ with R/H Drive.
I met him when we were both working at Studebaker of Calif. in the 1990's me full time, and he just on Ed's and other's Auto. Transmissions etc.

The Power Shift Trans. works much better to do conversions to R/H also, since the shifter is already in the Center, no awkward Column shift linkage to deal with.

StudeRich

Aussie Hawk
07-11-2009, 09:21 PM
Thanks StudeRich,

I really appreciate all the info. No, I only know Jim Quigley from in here, I saw he was in OZ, but I think he is in the southern states.

Cheers

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

HAWK64
07-12-2009, 08:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

[quote]Originally posted by Aussie Hawk

Thank you all for you help. Any more suggestions on identification of the heads being high or low compression would also be helpful.


Matt, I am pretty sure that those 1557582 casting number heads are the Part # 1557580 Heads in the Parts Catalog as '63-'64 export low Comp. Heads about 7.0 with thick Gasket, 7.5 with thin.

That block P(V?) A415 seems to me must most likely be a "C" instead of a V. That would make it a late '64 Canadian built 289 (actually an early Canadian '64, built the first month of Canada only Production), built Jan. 15th 1964

Don't you know Jim Quigley over there? He knows all about the Aussie "R" Series cars etc. and can tell you all you want to know about Studes. and Transmissions >great guy! I think his perfect Strato Blue '64 GT Hawk does in fact have the Power Shift and was built for OZ with R/H Drive.
I met him when we were both working at Studebaker of Calif. in the 1990's me full time, and he just on Ed's and other's Auto. Transmissions etc.

The Power Shift Trans. works much better to do conversions to R/H also, since the shifter is already in the Center, no awkward Column shift linkage to deal with.

StudeRich


Thanks for your kind words Studerich & compliments re my Hawk although it has column shift auto with low speed takeoff. Yes, you are correct that 1557582 are 7 to 1 ratio & use a headgasket 535982. If Matt of Brisbane reads this posting I still do Stude auto rebuilds, c/o units or supply of individual unit if he is interested.

http://www.studebakercarclub.net/jim.jpg
"QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER"
MELBOURNE.