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Kenmike2
07-08-2009, 11:24 PM
Did Stude put them on the '64 Convertible. I have a 61 and a 63 in the shop and both have them. The one 64 I have (It's a Super Lark) does not them. Anyone have experience with the 64?
REgards
Ken Michael

StudeRich
07-09-2009, 03:02 AM
quote:Originally posted by Kenmike2

Did Stude put them on the '64 Convertible.

You do not need experience with a '64-L to know this, you just need to have, and know how to use a Studebaker Chassis Parts Catalog. :)

1337262P '60S-L Right, Weight, Radiator Grille Panel Balance
1332263P '60S-L Left.... "

1337264P '60V-L Right... "
1337265P '60V-L Left..... "

1339090 '61S,V-L Right... "
1339091 '61S,V-L Left..... "

1342466 '62S,V-L, '63S,V-L,P Right, Weight
1342467 '62S,V-L, '63S,V-L,P Left, Weight

(2)1358195 '64S,V-L,P Weight, Radiator Air Intake Panel Balance *

* = Used on P Models with sliding roof only.

They are the same on Jet Thrust, Super Jet Thrust.

StudeRich

Kenmike2
07-09-2009, 10:28 PM
Thanks Studerich.
I don't have a catalog that covers the 64. Therefore, my question.
Regards
Ken Michael

Bullet
07-10-2009, 02:00 PM
I had a '64L 6-cyl and it had the weights.

http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss93/mwarmann/scan0019-1.jpg

barnlark
03-18-2011, 08:01 AM
You do not need experience with a '64-L to know this, you just need to have, and know how to use a Studebaker Chassis Parts Catalog. :)

1337262P '60S-L Right, Weight, Radiator Grille Panel Balance
1332263P '60S-L Left.... "

1337264P '60V-L Right... "
1337265P '60V-L Left..... "

1339090 '61S,V-L Right... "
1339091 '61S,V-L Left..... "

1342466 '62S,V-L, '63S,V-L,P Right, Weight
1342467 '62S,V-L, '63S,V-L,P Left, Weight

(2)1358195 '64S,V-L,P Weight, Radiator Air Intake Panel Balance *

* = Used on P Models with sliding roof only.

They are the same on Jet Thrust, Super Jet Thrust.

StudeRich

I recently had to ship a set of these rather heavy weights and was interested in what the differences were for the 1960 6 cylinder convertibles. By the way, the above part number for the 1960 6 cylinder cars' left side is incorrect. It should be 1337263P: Similar to the right side.

Anyway, after an email discussion, it made me look it up and discover that 1960 Larks did indeed have different part numbers between the 60V & 60S convertibles. Were they less weight, a different shape in the concave area? I read other threads mentioning some Wagonaires as having 33 lb. weights, but mine were over 35 lbs. each (on a USPS scale) with the flat rate box and actually were one pound heavier on one side making it 36.5 lbs.

I seem to remember a thread mentioning some '60 6 cylinder convertible owners not having them, but there are part numbers for them in the Chassis Catalog. I doubt they were optional. Anyone know how much lighter the 6 cylinder weights were, or what the difference might be? The bolt position and shape for the 1960 versions seem to be the distinguishing factor from other years, but the shape & bolt position would be the same in 1960 convertibles. The threaded bolt holes are 5-3/4" center to center, for example. Anyone ever weigh an original 60S front end weight?

Lark8girl
03-18-2011, 08:09 PM
Could someone please give the location and the purpose of "weights" on covertibles? Lark VIII girl wants an explanation, and I have heard of 'weights' but never inquired as to their purpose.
Husband of Lark VIII girl,

barnlark
03-18-2011, 08:39 PM
If you have a Chassis Catalog you can see them on page 138. The bolts for them are on each side of the front panel under your front bumper. They are directly behind that front panel, unless they had been removed during a paint job, or a front clip disassembly. There are two curved plates welded from the factory to each inner fender on the 1960 convertibles to accept the weights from behind as well. I didn't crawl under Lark VIII girl's beautiful front clip while it was at the Summit Meet two years ago to know if they are still there! Sorry. They were designed to limit any cowl shake (whole car shake) from the lack of a solid roof. Structurally, Studebaker Lark convertibles and, later on, sliding roof wagons were deemed movers and shakers early on.

jts359
03-18-2011, 09:06 PM
Hi The purpose of the weights is prevent an issue called Cowl shake , The idea being by putting weights at one end or the other you sort of stretch it over the center , Most car makers did it back then to convertibles , some put in the back and others put them in the front

studegary
03-18-2011, 09:34 PM
They are harmonic balancers. Many cars used them, but most were hidden away somewhere like inside a fender.

Some people take them off thinking that they are doing a good thing by eliminating weight. They weren't put there for fun or to add weight - there was/is a reason for them. I have followed cars where they were removed and the car shakes all over, even though people in the car say that they can not feel it.

barnlark
03-18-2011, 11:39 PM
Interesting that you call them "harmonic balancers", Gary. They may play a part in the car's "harmonic" balance of weight distibution, (and I'm certainly not an engineer) but none of the parts books call them that. Studebaker just referred to them as weights in my parts books. Harmonic balancers, or vibration dampers, are usually terms having to do with the crankshaft, or engine/trans vibration, aren't they?

ClaymoreWW
03-19-2011, 06:27 AM
I only have a smattering of physics knowledge, but I don't think the term "harmonic balancer" would be mis-used in this case - at least as far as physics is concerned. Harmonics can occur in anything that is subjected to constant or varying forces. A graphic example of harmonics in a structure that one would think would be immune is the classic video of the Tacoma Narrows bridge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw (the force applied here was the wind)

True, typically in the automotive world, the harmonic balancer is found on the front end of a crankshaft, but harmonics can occur many places - like an out of balance tire - and those harmonics can be balanced :)

--george

Bob Andrews
03-19-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't think the term "harmonic balancer" would be mis-used in this case - at least as far as physics is concerned.

Just semantics, I suppose. On Camaro convertibles they're upright canisters mounted in the trunk in the corners, and are generally referred to as "c ocktail shakers".

studegary
03-19-2011, 04:34 PM
They are weights, as listed in the parts books. Their purpose is not to add weight to the car, but rather to dampen the harmonics of the body/chassis structure. This is to help prevent what some refer to as cowl shake. That is why I refer to them as harmonic balancers (the purpose of adding these weights to the car).
I do have degrees in engineering and physics, but do not pretend to be an expert in this particular field.

packardHawk58
03-19-2011, 11:57 PM
Did Stude put them on the '64 Convertible. I have a 61 and a 63 in the shop and both have them. The one 64 I have (It's a Super Lark) does not them. Anyone have experience with the 64?
REgards
Ken Michael

Hey Ken, I sent you a PM, did you get it.
Regards Brian.

barnlark
03-20-2011, 01:39 AM
Well, since my degrees aren't in engineering, I'll gladly defer to you guys in the know! That's why I don't write tech books. I would just call them what they are, as Studebaker did. Matter of semantics, absolutely. I just mentioned that I found it interesting that they were referred to as harmonic balancers in that sense, not that it was wrong, btw.

It sure seems to me that while adding these weights are certainly a means to an end, (decreasing cowl shake for a car's harmonic balance) I would never think that adding these weights to the car isn't their purpose. To me, that's exactly their purpose - to add weight in a specific location to achieve that balance. There actually could be a thousand car parts that contribute to a car's total harmonic balance in the literal sense. I don't call tires, shocks and engine mounts "cushions" for example, even though that's what they do. Others may.

I work with many kinds of engineers everyday and I can appreciate that they speak another language than the rest of us. It's fascinating to learn something new every day. When I installed my harmonic damper on my engine I guess it was just one of many!

If I order a harmonic balancer from Studebaker International tomorrow, I bet I don't get these convertible weights or even lead weights for my wheels, however. ;)

packardHawk58
03-20-2011, 03:30 AM
http://i971.photobucket.com/albums/ae194/packardhawk58/051.jpg
Here's what they look like Ken, L/H and R/H and heavy.

ClaymoreWW
03-20-2011, 06:20 AM
Sorry Dave! It wasn't my intent to put you (or anyone) on the defense. You're absolutely right about what you would get if you ordered a harmonic balancer! I've wondered how they came up with the solution to fix cowl shake with weights out on the end of the frame. I mean, if you know the car flexes, my first instinct would be to stiffen it up, not add weight here and there until it didn't shake.

--george

Don Jeffers
03-21-2011, 09:38 AM
In the engineering sense these weights are termed "mass dampers" and function as everyone says.

Mass dampers are used on aircraft control surfaces; ailerons, elevators and rudder and sometimes the weights are out in the open and can be easily seen. The weights are placed ahead of the hinge line to oppose the tendency of the control surfaces to "flutter" in the airflow. When the control surface goes one way, the mass of the balance weight on the other side of the hinge line goes the other way and opposes the movement of the mass of the control surface wanting to flutter.

Harmonics of vibrations that might arise on a given piece of machinery are such that shifting the mass (weight) and the distance it acts through (its lever arm) one way or another a few percentage points can change the "critical frequency" enough to minimize vibration at some often encountered operating speed or condition.

Yes, it would be a more fundamental approach to change the stiffness of the structure to correct the vibration problem. However it is often much easier to hang a weight on it that to change the structure, especially if the weight minimizes the problem. Improving the stiffness of a convertible after you've cut the top off the car is a big problem in itself. Cowl shake in convertibles is an ever present challenge.

Firmly hold one end of a plastic or wooden ruler down on the edge of a table with most of the length hanging over the edge and flip the end. The ruler goes boiiing . . . Hang a weight on the end of the ruler and flip the end and it goes thud.

Interesting thread.

Can someone confirm about how much total weight was placed on each end of a given Studebaker and where? Just curious.

studegary
03-21-2011, 02:55 PM
About 35 pounds each. Two total. One on each side - right and left. At the front of the car, behind the lower pan in back of the bumper.

Bob Andrews
03-21-2011, 05:01 PM
In the engineering sense these weights are termed "mass dampers" and function as everyone says.

Mass dampers are used on aircraft control surfaces; ailerons, elevators and rudder and sometimes the weights are out in the open and can be easily seen. The weights are placed ahead of the hinge line to oppose the tendency of the control surfaces to "flutter" in the airflow. When the control surface goes one way, the mass of the balance weight on the other side of the hinge line goes the other way and opposes the movement of the mass of the control surface wanting to flutter.

Harmonics of vibrations that might arise on a given piece of machinery are such that shifting the mass (weight) and the distance it acts through (its lever arm) one way or another a few percentage points can change the "critical frequency" enough to minimize vibration at some often encountered operating speed or condition.

Yes, it would be a more fundamental approach to change the stiffness of the structure to correct the vibration problem. However it is often much easier to hang a weight on it that to change the structure, especially if the weight minimizes the problem. Improving the stiffness of a convertible after you've cut the top off the car is a big problem in itself. Cowl shake in convertibles is an ever present challenge.

Firmly hold one end of a plastic or wooden ruler down on the edge of a table with most of the length hanging over the edge and flip the end. The ruler goes boiiing . . . Hang a weight on the end of the ruler and flip the end and it goes thud.



Holy mackerel. Smart people rule!:cool:

Warren Webb
03-22-2011, 09:44 AM
What amazes me is the fact that Studebaker with its "extremely limited" resources at the time, changed the design of these weights to conform to the shape of a panel that hangs beneath the front bumper that nobody really pays any attention to!

I drove my 62 Daytona convertible once without the weights-once was enough for sure! Turned around & headed back to the shop & reinstalled them. Car shook so bad I had to pull over to the side of the road letting cars behind pass for it to stop shaking. Experienced a similar shake with my Hawk when I first got it. Even though it had only 54,000 miles on it at the time the front end developed a shake. Installed a steering dampner kit from Dave T-bow & it went away. That kit was available from Studebaker to correct the same shake on power steering equipped G.T.'s. Why only power steering cars when the steering linkage is virtually the same as non power cars, with the exeption of the reach rod/control valve.

DEEPNHOCK
03-22-2011, 09:58 AM
In simple terms....
Adding (or removing) mass changes the harmonic frequency.
That frequency oscillation/vibration might only be felt at a certain road speed.
So, the way to 'fix' it is to shift the frequency up or down to a range where it is not felt, or is destructive.
The cheapest way to 'fix' it is to add or remove mass at or near the cause of the oscillation.
Many manufacturers, when faced with a driveline vibration, would hang a weight on a bracket off the tail shaft of a transmission.
Didn't stop the oscillation or vibration, just moved it to a range where the car was not usually operated in.
Same for the convertible weights up front.

Bamajak
03-22-2011, 10:01 AM
They are harmonic balancers. Many cars used them, but most were hidden away somewhere like inside a fender.

Some people take them off thinking that they are doing a good thing by eliminating weight. They weren't put there for fun or to add weight - there was/is a reason for them. I have followed cars where they were removed and the car shakes all over, even though people in the car say that they can not feel it.

Gary
I will drive beside you in anything you want to drive (under 130mph - not tested at that speed) and see who
shakes apart first....................But on radial tires in my 62 Lark Convertable
Jack White