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Roscomacaw
07-06-2009, 08:34 PM
I've been talking about the impending paint job on the '63 Cruiser for several weeks now. A couple of times, as Saturday approached (the day my painter has access to his shop's paint booth), some minor thing got in the way, but I was patient thru it all. The last Saturday of June looked good, but it was my fault that someone else's car got painted instead of mine.
The weekend before that, the painter came by my house to see the Cruiser. He'd not seen it even tho he'd agreed to paint it when the bodyman finished his repairs and finessed it so that it would take the paint nicely. This was on Friday - the 19th - and he balked at the clear coat I'd gotten for the job. Even tho it's about the most expensive stuff PPG makes, his complaint was that he couldn't deliver his best effort unless I went back and swapped it for the stuff he specified. Being it wasa Friday evening, I couldn't do the swap until at least Monday, which meant it would be the NEXT Saturday before the Cruiser could get into the booth. Then, because I didn't call him quick enough to tell that I'd swapped the clear, he let someone else get in line ahead of me.

So, Thrusday afternoon - July 2nd - he calls me and asks if I'm gonna have the car at the shop Friday morning. He'd not told me that the shop was gonna have Friday off, so he wanted to mask the car up on Friday morning and then shoot the paint early on Saturday before it got too hot.
Now, even tho the car IS driveable (and I drove it less than half a mile from the house to shoot that little bit of IDYSD video), I didn't fancy driving it the 6 or 7 miles to the shop - right in town - without hanging lites and such on it to be legal. SO, I enlisted the help of my gearhead neighbor and his nice trailer to get the car to the shop. By 9AM, it was sitting IN the paint booth and I was getting excited about retrieving it in a few hours with it's Blue Mist coloration gleaming in the sun.
The painter guy again looks in the box of paint supplies I've bought and says "UH-OH", they gave you the wrong stuff AGAIN. Of course, I groaned, grabbed the "wrong stuff" and headed out to the paint shop to exchange it. It would only take 15 minutes or so and I'd be back.

When I got back to the shop, the painter met me at the door. "I got bad news for you." he says. "There's no way I'm gonna spray that paint on that car until the bodyman straightens out some stuff he missed."

"WHA??? WHA'D he MISS????" He leads me back to the booth where he's stuck a half dozen bits of masking tape to point out the boo-boos. And they were THERE! I was flabberghasted that my body guy could have missed such glaring glitches - glitches that protruded outwards - not inwards. 4 of the six points were obviously glaring oversights of my bodyman - a guy with nearly 30 years of experience - the guy, by the way, who'd recommended this painter to do the honors.

I call my buddy back up, he brings his trailer back over (of course, he'd disconnected it already) and we haul the Cruiser back to my place. I was disgusted, to say the least. I pulled it back into the shop and walked away. I'd already talked to the bodyman on the phone and he'd agreed to come by and make things right on Monday.
I DID get the car out to drive it for the aforementioned video clip, but it went right back into the shop after that.

Today, the bodyman comes out and runs his hand over the first two dents. He stops, looks at me with suspicion and I said "HEY! I haven't had a tool NEAR this thing since you finished with it 2 weeks ago!
I confess, I was SO trusting of everyone involved, that it never occurred to me that someone would sabatoge the car. NEVER! But by golly, I opened the door and looked at the inside for the first time. There, showing the chipped sound deadener that I'd applied just two weeks ago, were obvious tool marks where the painter, I guess, figured out a way to get out of painting on his long weekend!:(

He (and he alone) was with the car during the time I was off chasing the reducer he specified. The car shows FOUR defini

Mark57
07-06-2009, 08:44 PM
You appear to be taking this much better than I would! :([:0]

I suppose it is always better to take the high road, but some folks sure make that difficult - hope it works out for you Bob. :)

<h5>[b]Mark
'57 Transtar Deluxe
Vancouver Island Chapter
http://sdcvi.shawwebspace.ca/ </h5>

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x153/MarkH57/CandyStore1Thumb.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
07-06-2009, 08:50 PM
That sucks! [xx(]

I've experienced a few horror stories with painters and heard many. Must be something in the fumes [^].

Hard to find a good one. When you do, pay them what they ask and stick with them.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics066-2-1.jpg

barnlark
07-06-2009, 09:03 PM
How in the he## did he think he'd get away with that? Laziness the only motivation, or did he try to say he'd fix them for you and charge more, Bob? Unbelievable. :(:(:(

JRoberts
07-06-2009, 09:07 PM
You are a better man than I am. I am afraid I would have really blown up! I had a body man rivet the stainless trim to a Lark he was fixing after a hit and run situation. I was furious. He claimed he couldn't find the right clips for it. I was furious but not so quietly furious as you seem to be. Your a good man.

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

Roscomacaw
07-06-2009, 09:17 PM
Oh, I'm HOT! No, HOT! But I have to play it cool until I get to confront him. I plan to be there the moment his boss (a nice lady in this case) walks in the door. Then I'm going to tell her what's gone on - just like I told it here.

This operation has been in business since the 30s! In fact, it was a repair garage starting in 1914. This gal took over the business from her dad, who'd had it since the 30s. It's one of the most respected body shops in town. They're struggling thanks to the turn-down and there's another painter they had to lay off that's still out of work. If this ass-hat gets let go, they'll have a painter handy to call back.

It was roughly 10 years ago that the Larkvertible got caught up in the revenge misdoings of a fired bodyman. Cost me over $2K in materials alone, to fix that fiasco! Different shop, of course.[8]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

barnlark
07-06-2009, 09:22 PM
Take your body man to back up your story. You've had some bad luck, Biggs. I didn't exactly have Dick's Jon Falcon working on mine, but I wish they could all be like him. That's a paint job! [^]

jclary
07-06-2009, 09:24 PM
For years, I have had people ask me who did the work on my cars. I have always answered that I did everything myself because I was too cheap to pay anyone else to work on them. Although that is not too far from the truth, I have trouble trusting others to do the work or take as good care of my stuff as I would. Except for chrome work, upholstering the seats, and installing headliners, I have done all my cars myself. At least I know who to give a swift kick to when things go wrong. When you do get the painting done, stay with the car and observe the work, if they don't allow you to, find someone who will. If they are competent, they should be proud to have you watch.

John Clary
Greer, SC
http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u346/jconln/HPIM0372-2.jpg
Life... is what happens as you are making plans.
SDC member since 1975

gordr
07-06-2009, 09:28 PM
Can I suggest you get some photographs of the tool marks on the damaged areas? They might prove useful.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

BobPalma
07-06-2009, 09:47 PM
:) Obscene, Bob; just obscene. :( Inexcusable. :( Keep us posted...and try to avoid assault charges if the painter challenges you!;)

Forum decorum prohibits expressing a more graphic, albeit more honest, opinion.[}:)] :DBP

rusty65
07-06-2009, 09:48 PM
I don't mean any harm or disrespect here, but about halfway down the thread I concluded that the painter DIDN'T want to do your car anyway.Sounds like just another BillyBob barroom promise.The fact that he wanted to work with the kind of materials he was used to working with (the 'right' stuff)would otherwise be a legitimate stance, but I feel that this was just another stall tactic.When he knew you were going to haul a$$ to get the correct stuff so he could do the job,that's when it got [}:)]'ed up. That way he wouldn't have to be bothered with painting the car at all.If this joker would have just manned up and said he didn't want to paint your car,it would have saved a lot of headache and heartache.At least the bodyman is stepping up to the plate to make his end of things right.Let the shop owner know that this guy is bad news, and let it go at that.From that point on, it's on them (the shop owner and the painter).And one wonders why people rattle-can,roll or PowerPaint their cars.I've been schmicked around like that,once with an upholesterer, and the latest go-round with a soda blaster.He did a hood for my car; did a good job and I gladly paid him what he asked.I wanted him to do the roof next, so we set up a tentative time that was good for both of us and it rained. The next week I called to re-schedule and said he'd get right back to me.Two weeks and three calls later;still nothing is set up.He sound sincere enough on the phone and has (supposedly)taken my cell phone, home phone and work numbers every time.Well guess what-he just lost my business.WTH is wrong with people?With the economy the way it is,you would think people would like to make an extra dollar or two.I work OT just about every week and I'm greatful for it.I'm not going to ask you how much you were going to pay this guy 'cause it's none of my business.Just hold on to that cash for a while until you run into someone that paints cars for a living.There are some fine folks out there who take pride in their work; it's just a matter of finding them.(I hope that's enough of a disclaimer to keep the 'high horse riders'from coming down on me.)Anyway, thanks for hearing me out, and I wish you the best of luck in getting your car "done"!!!:)

Roscomacaw
07-06-2009, 09:49 PM
My bodyman's one cool guy. It so happens that he works at the same shop. Since my trusted painter of some years back has disappeared, I asked my guy if he knew of a capable painter I could hire. He introiduced me to this guy from their shop.

I wouldn't think there's any "bad blood" between them and it was readily obvious that my body guy felt guilty for what's happened since he was the one that set me up with this painter.

I just took some shots of the damage. I'll post a couple pics in a bit. It's SO obvious that the damage was done AFTER the refinishing.:(

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

bams50
07-06-2009, 10:05 PM
Offensive, childish, chicken@#%t... can't think of a strong enough word. Un Be Lieveable:([}:)] Makes it hard to NOT want to just apply a few open-hand slaps to the jerk...

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag3-1.gif

studeclunker
07-06-2009, 10:20 PM
Bob, I wouldn't go back. That is, I wouldn't trust these people with my car. Such a 'Prima Donna' painter just might sabotage the job or simply do a crappy one. If it were me, I would go back and give the owner a (respectful) piece of my mind! Respectful, because she's not responsible and her business has been around so long with such a good reputation, up till now. Perhaps, what might happen is that Mr. Prima Donna would get sacked and the laid off painter would be asked back.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/december%2006/HPIM0234.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/56%20Parkview%20Wagon/56wagonleftfrontclipped-1.jpg
Home of the famous Mr. Ed!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

gordr
07-07-2009, 12:41 AM
How about tracking down the laid-off painter, and getting HIM to paint the Lark? It ought to be possible to find a paint booth to rent somewhere in Visalia. Or simply jury-rig a paint booth from one of the portable garages and some big box fans?

Seems to me that there would be a criminal case against the jerk who did this.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

gordr
07-07-2009, 12:49 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

My bodyman's one cool guy. It so happens that he works at the same shop. Since my trusted painter of some years back has disappeared, I asked my guy if he knew of a capable painter I could hire. He introiduced me to this guy from their shop.

I wouldn't think there's any "bad blood" between them and it was readily obvious that my body guy felt guilty for what's happened since he was the one that set me up with this painter.

I just took some shots of the damage. I'll post a couple pics in a bit. It's SO obvious that the damage was done AFTER the refinishing.:(

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

Warren Webb
07-07-2009, 03:05 AM
I'm glad that at least your bodyman is decent. I would ask the manager at the paint store that sold you the materials who they would recommend. Show them the pictures of the damage. That would explain why you want to go with another, more trustworthy painter. Is the shop you selected originally getting paid directly or is it on the side for just the painter? Its one thing for the bodyman to do some side work, but unless the owner is dialed in too, there may be more problems for that painter than he admits. He might just be a "trusted employee" & have his own keys to the shop & think its his to do whatever he wants. If thats the case, he might be the one looking for work. I've seen all kinds of things thru the years, but whenever I've done things off the record, I've always made sure the owner is aware of it & have his/her permission first.

60 Lark convertible
61 Champ
62 Daytona convertible
63 G.T. R-2,4 speed
63 Avanti (2)
66 Daytona Sport Sedan

4961Studebaker
07-07-2009, 08:43 AM
[}:)] un freaking real [}:)]

I'm definitely in the 'man up' camp, I'd respect him more if he would just say, look I know how important painting this car is to you, but I have many things on my plate for the comming weekend and I'd rather do it the following week.

But I guess that would just be to easy.

When you go back to the shop, I'm sure your thinking which way is this going to go.

1. Will the painter get scolded and tuck his tail between his legs, realize he did wrong, then buckle down and do a great job because he may loose his job.
2. Or will he be a nice guy during the scolding then during the paint process work his evil magic, and leave you with an inferior paint job. Sort of like a situation in a restaurant where you send a steak back, and wonder if the cook SPITS on it :(

Let us know how it goes.

ChopStu
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/kkad0711/IMG_5406-1.jpg

Chris Pile
07-07-2009, 10:07 AM
I used to be in the repair biz (not cars) and intentionally damaging a customer's goods (or Studebaker) is utterly reprehensible.
Give him hell, Biggsy!

Chris Pile
Editor: The Studebaker Special
http://midwaystudebakers.tripod.com/

barnlark
07-07-2009, 11:39 AM
Oh, and use the same camera off to the side that you used on Drive Your Studebaker Day so we all can witness it!

fstst56
07-07-2009, 12:56 PM
Mr Biggs,

The more I think about this, I'm wondering if
maybe you should turn this over to the Police.
This guy needs to grow up. Maybe the police
can make a beliver out of him.

Roscomacaw
07-07-2009, 02:14 PM
Well, I went and had a chat with the shop owner today. At first, he got all huffed up cause he assumed I was gonna be lookin' to him for some resolution or recompense or maybe even some discipline for the painter. I assured him with unmistakeable clarity that I was NOT looking to HIM for such. With that, his attitude did a 180.[^]
Once his feathers un-ruffled, I asked him to escort me to the paint area so I could reclaim my paints and sealer. I'd left them on Friday, and don't think I wasn't worried that they might disappear. They hadn't and I got all the stuff back - a bit over $600 bucks worth of stuff![:0]

We then returned to the office where I laid out the whole saga, from start to finish. I made sure he (the boss) understood that my bodyman had NADA to gain from having corkscrewed his own work. He wants to fix the damage for free.
But I detailed that the car had NOT been outta my shop or yard but for the evenings when the bodyman was working on it. And I must say that for a guy of 53, to come out here and work - flat out - until it got too dark to see anymore - he gained my admiration before he was even close to done.
Anyway, I explained that the only time the car was not under my vigilance was the 15 or 20 minutes after I drove it into the paint booth and then went to get additional materials that the painter said he'd need.
No one comes into my yard without an invite from me and/or my personal escorting. No one. So that leaves that time in the paint booth - with no one in the whole shop BUT the painter - as a window of opportunity. This was what I told the shop owner. And I assured him that I STILL wasn't looking for any reaction or discipline from him - I just thought that since he employs this guy, he ought to be aware of possible shenanigans that could potentially affect his operation.

He was rather protective at first, but seeing the photos and hearing the sequence of events, it was obvious that I'd at least planted a seed of doubt.
Thanks to my bodyman's efforts, I won't be out-of-pocket anymore than I already am. So as much as I'd liked to have throttled the twerp painter, best I did it like I did.
One thing I do keep in mind is that this is still a sort of "small town". A Stude stands out like it does anywheres else. No sense pissing someone off who quite likely carries a set of keys and a pocket knife with them, if ya know what I mean.

GOOD NEWS IS - it's still a go to get painted next Saturday. I walked across the street to another shop I've known for eons. The owner was there and I asaked if he knew a painter looking for work - he did. The guy that painted the Daytona that Dick is driving - he got laid off from his job last week. I arranged to use this second shop's paint booth AND have my old guy paint it on Saturday. So, fingers crossed and four days to go - maybe this attempt will be the charm!:D

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

Dick Steinkamp
07-07-2009, 02:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs


GOOD NEWS IS - it's still a go to get painted next Saturday. I walked across the street to another shop I've known for eons. The owner was there and I asaked if he knew a painter looking for work - he did. The guy that painted the Daytona that Dick is driving - he got laid off from his job last week. I arranged to use this second shop's paint booth AND have my old guy paint it on Saturday. So, fingers crossed and four days to go - maybe this attempt will be the charm!:D





I think you handled that just right, Bob.

...and you know your old guy can lay down the paint properly from experience with my '63 Daytona and others he has done for you.



Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics066-2-1.jpg

sweetolbob
07-07-2009, 04:07 PM
Biggs

If this were the HAMB you'd have heard Kick his A$$, Torch the shop, shoot his dog. Well!! We all know that there's much more to lose than gain in any action.

You handled this in a very mature fashion. My hat's off to you for the restraint and rational thought you demonstrated.

I'm a "A" type personality and I can appreciate what you went through mentally.

Kodoo's on a job well done. :):)

Bob

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh263/sweetolbob/P1000416.jpg?t=1227109182

JRoberts
07-07-2009, 04:42 PM
Biggs, I agree with Dick that you handled the situation the way it should have been. I know you might have liked to let off a little more steam, even to the point of going after the painter, but that couldn't have ended up good.

Sounds like you're set up to get a good paint job on the car after all and that's what you wanted to begin with. Too bad you had to go through all the other crap to get there.

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

BobPalma
07-07-2009, 04:50 PM
:) Excellent. 'Probably couldn't ask for a better resolution. (I do note your avian interests reflected in your prose, Bob, i.e, "once his feathers un-ruffled...";)) :DBP

Roscomacaw
07-07-2009, 05:51 PM
I guess foremost in my mind was not to rock the boat there and cause my bodyman to lose his job. This shop as well as all the others in this town, is suffering from the economic woes. People get a check from an insurance company and they use it for daily expenses rather than to get their car looking good again. That and the Ins.Co's. propensity to "total" cars that would otherwise have been fixed in times past - have pulled the rug out from under repair shops.
One year ago, this particular shop had a dozen guys working collision and two painters. They're down to 3 and 1 now - and at that, some of the guys work only 4 days outta the week.

My bodyman "Mondo", has three kids and a wife to think about. I really thought highly of him having his teenage sons help him and then giving them part of the money earned. It's tough for kids to find a meaningful job and these two very respectful and hardworking kids were a credit to their dad. So you understand why I didn't (as I very easily could have) go in there with guns blazing this morning. There wasn't a whole lot to lose on my end, but a hard-workin' guy with a family to feed - I had no business betting against that.

BP, yes - how could I help but to meld in some avian mention. I could've really squawked, bared my talons and kicked tail, but I chose the olive branch approach instead.[:I]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

Aussie Hawk
07-07-2009, 06:14 PM
I'm glad it all worked out in the end. But it raises the question of 'What is it with these panelbeaters', (that's what body guys are called down here). I visited 6 shops to find someone willing to paint my Hawk - 'no, sorry mate, we only do smash repairs', was the most common reply. One of the best was,'I can't do it for about 3 months, and then it'll take about 6 months, I'll get the boys to do bits between their other work, Oh, and it'll have to be totally stripped and sand blasted before you bring it in'. I said, 'mate if you don't want to do it just say so, don't try and bulls#@t me'. He got all huffy and walked inside[:0]

I finally found a guy to do it, a really nice older guy, it's booked in for the end of this month.


Matt
Brisbane
Australia

ChampTrucking
07-07-2009, 06:31 PM
Hey Biggsie, good approach and tactful handling of the issues. One thing you might do is get a little background on the azzbag painter since it is a small town. That way if you see a certain vehicle following you or cruising your house you will have an idea what is up. Never know who has the stalker mentality.Knowing the other individual a little bit could save you further headaches.

Roscomacaw
07-07-2009, 08:31 PM
Matt, AMEN! I've often thought it was too much bondo dust or paint fumes or a combination thereof.

You'd have gotten the same sorta reception here. They won't even touch an old car here unless you agree to time and materials - basically, a blank check. And THEN there's the little detail of it actually getting worked on instead of serving as a dust collector.[V]

They way they look at it is time is money. It's too easy to do repairs on modern stuff than tackle stuff that they've probably never SEEN before![B)] Like the mechanical repair places here, you say "Studebaker" and you might have well said "Alien Spaceship". [:0]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

Aussie Hawk
07-07-2009, 09:11 PM
I don't ever mention Studebaker if I'm in a parts place looking for something. You either get a blank stare or off in the distance you can hear a cash register ring.

I think you're right about fumes of the bondo,(we call bog), and paint, but they are so arrogant about it :( And to actually damage your car to get out of painting it!! As my old mum would have said, 'That's the dizzy limit'.

Matt
Brisbane
Australia

barnlark
07-07-2009, 10:23 PM
Tactful job, Biggs. I'm still concerned that this guy is going to hear about your visit eventually and find about the other guy's paint job, too. If he was that blatant damaging your car, he's more than likely a potential parking lot keyer. Champ Trucking is on the money...gather some local info on this guy for the future. He will get his properly one day if he tries that. :(

Roscomacaw
07-08-2009, 12:34 AM
Mondo fixed all the boo-boos this evening. Darn nice job of it too. I tried to pay him since it wasn't his fault, but he was adamant that he wasn't gonna take any money. I did manage to send him off with a big bag of peaches, plums and grapes. He had a big smile and peach juice on his chin.[:p]

I do worry a bit about the guy "getting even" sometime in the future. I intend to ask around, but ya hafta be discrete about even that. Like I said - it's still a small town.[}:)]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

tomnoller
07-08-2009, 08:40 AM
You're a stand-up guy Bigsy!

rusty65
07-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Mr. Biggs, you were indeed the 'bigger' man on this one.;)Oh, by the way you KNOW that Mondo rhymes with Bondo!!!:D lol

Roscomacaw
07-08-2009, 10:33 AM
Thanks Tom, rusty and all. Rusty, I'm the "bigger man" by many dimensions.[:0]

Mondo-Bondo, I hadn't thought of that, but he HAS used some on this Cruiser - sparingly of course.[:I]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

jclary
07-08-2009, 10:51 AM
One thing I learned about being the "Youngest" brother (and little for my age at that) was to be determined to be meaner than anybody trying to back you into a corner.[}:)] That includes letting the other guy know you have the capacity.:( It is not by being loud, boastful, or overtly angry, but by the manner in which you carry yourself and the energy you project. It served me well over the years and helped me survive Vietnam. You don't have to be big or tall...just live big and tall!:D Biggs...from your account of how you conducted yourself in this matter, I suspect this guy wouldn't want to tangle with you. Being bigger certainly don't hurt either.;)

John Clary
Greer, SC
http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u346/jconln/HPIM0372-2.jpg
Life... is what happens as you are making plans.
SDC member since 1975

Nelsen Motorsports
07-08-2009, 12:32 PM
Well how about flat black in the garage for only a whopping $35 or so.

http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss29/NelsenRacing/n1558086144_30050401_419-1.jpg
Alex Nelsen
1954 Champion Coupe
Lizella, GA

chinaadoptions
07-08-2009, 12:41 PM
I feel your pain. I spent countless hours doing the body work and paint prep on my transtar. I painted the interior, door jams, back of the cab and the front of the bed. All that had to be done was painting the basic body. I have a problem painting in that I can't hit that fine line between shine and run. The painter came to my shop to check the prep job, "said it was the best preperation he had ever seen". His words not mine. I have seen his work and it is excellent. A few days later I see my bright red Studebaker parked outside the paint shop. Long story short, orange peel, slides, runs and dirt. Terrible paint job. I ask what happened, he said what do you mean? I pointed out the problems. He said" it's just an old pickup so I had a kid in the shop practice on it". Parked it in my shop for several years until the wife said that I am not getting any younger, better Get it fixed so you can play with it. Took it to another shop and told him to do whatever it took to save it. He was able to cut and buff enough to make it presentable. Been several years and I am still pissed.

Canadoug
07-08-2009, 11:24 PM
Hi Mr. Biggs
That is shameful that you had to experience this. Can I comment on a few things ? Some of the story really is ...perculiar .
First , let me qualify my extensive experience in bodywork and paint to you. I am a journeyman autobody mechanic . I also paint. I owned my own shop. I can let you in on how this situation is percieved by those that own shops ....and those that do the work.

Some on this forum have offered some very disparaging comments on autobody repairmen , painters , and shop owners. :(

Let me give it to you straight. Paint and Bodyshops bread and butter are in collision repair work . Restoration work is slow , difficult ,and beleive it or not ...barely profitable.

To make matters worse , the work is judged unfairly. Often by those with little or no knowledge. IE ...the bodywork is wavy !Really ? Go to your nearest new car dealer ...you wanna see waves ? Right from the Factory. While you are there ...check out the paint ...not too many there in perfection ....IF you know what you are looking for [}:)]

Here's another insider info. Bodyshops loathe do-it-yourselfers.

Okay ..I'm stepping down from my bodyshop pulpit, and putting on my detective hat !

Here are things that raise my eyebrows with your story............[}:)]

Your body repairman sure came to your rescue awfully quick ...and what a good heart he has ...doing all that work for peaches !;)

How can you say your painter was all alone with your car while you were sent to get your paint ? Is the shop in the middle of nowhere ?
Did you have field glasses trained on him ? Hate to sound like a lawyer here ...but really ...other people may have visited the shop in your absense .Including the shop owner ..you know ..the guy cool to your problem ....maybe too cool[}:)]

In my career I have worked with and for every imaginable personality you can dream of. Saints ...and Sinners. You unfortunatly have had to see the dark side . My advice ? Do just as you did ....state your case ..firmly but polietly ...gather your car and your materials ..and leave. Trust me ...Karma will happen.

Has this happened to me ? Absolutely :(

Years ago I returned to work at a shop I had left. I was rehired with no hesitation . It was a three man shop. In short order I was given all the 'important' customers cars. The old snake I had to share the shop with ...this guy was pure evil ...everyone hated him ..waited his chance.

Here is what he did. I was doing a minor repair on a customers skylark .We always masked our own repairs to prime , and often the painter simply leaves the paper on ,if it was done well. It was.

Long story short. After the paint work ...the paper was removed and whoa ! ....the 1/4 glass and window had sand blast tracks !

Guess who always used the mini-sandblaster ? And who rarely if ever did ? Our foreman was not amused. The customer got two new windows .

The old snake said he knew nothing about it. It was his word verses mine.Nobody got fired.His work space was always like a kids sandbox.

I felt sorry for our shop foreman. He knew what happened ...but unless you see him with that smoking gun in his hand .......

Karma ? His home life was a train wreck.

I know the feeling you have Big ...you would never do that to someone. So why would they do it to you ?

It's human nature ,my man...there are some rotten bastards out there.


Carry on

Roscomacaw
07-09-2009, 01:29 AM
The shop was officially closed that Friday. The painter was there by himself. It's true that the car was outta my sight for the 20 minutes I was away, but he was still the only one there when I got back. SO - a 20 minute window of opportunity, he's in line to make some cold, hard, untaxed cash, he and I had no history whatsoever - we'd only met for the first time a week before.... So what was his boss, my bodyman, or some dart-n-run stranger off the street (and the main entrance was never even unlocked - I and the car came and went via the back door)or anyone else gonna gain by sabatoging this work? One of two things comes to mind for motive.

A: there's some bad blood or resentment between him and the bodyman. But before you say "AHA!", consider it was the bodyman that introduced me to this guy to paint the car (and he has a reputation as a capable painter - he's been with this shop for 5 or 6 years)

B: After changing his mind and deciding he wanted to have the 3-day weekend off, he found a quick and easy excuse to get out of the work.

C: There was/is a painter that's been laid off from that shop since things have slowed to a crawl. As is so often the case anymore, it was the more senior and experienced guy that they let go. I'd contacted him first because he'd offered to paint it for significantly less that the working guy. BUT - to the best of my knowledge, the guy I suspect never even knew about an alternative. So it's hard to conceive he did it outta spite. And even tho it pee'd me off alright, it was the bodyman who paid the price - even tho he didn't have to.

Well, I confess - I DID say some disparaging things about body and paint guys. I've had to deal with too many of them thru the years. That's not to say every last one of them's whacky. There's some real straight shooters out there. But maybe I keep running into the freaky ones because they're the only ones who'll take on the stuff that the insurance-cranking guys won't. Either way - guys that really know old-fashioned body work (not just fender-changers) are a dying breed.
My guy Mondo is pretty good at making crinkled sheet metal look good again. His abilities with things of a more mechanical nature make me cringe. Heh - when he was re-hanging the doors on the Cruiser, I had to get up and leave. I couldn't watch.
My old bodyman, Rick - as whacky as he is (and he IS somewhat of a mentally challenged fella!), he can finesse bodywork as good as anyone I could ever afford. I was pissed with him for some time because he'd walked away one day after a number of years and left me with an unfinished car that was supposed to end up on ebay. But time heals all wounds they say. Today I had him back here. He's the one who'll squirt the Cruiser for me on Saturday. Then I'm gonna set him loose on one of the other floundering projects. Quite likely the 53 Coupe.[^]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

BobPalma
07-09-2009, 06:23 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs
My guy Mondo is pretty good at making crinkled sheet metal look good again. His abilities with things of a more mechanical nature make me cringe. Heh - when he was re-hanging the doors on the Cruiser, I had to get up and leave. I couldn't watch.


:) One of the most vivid memories I have of taking Studebaker Factory Tours was during the 1963 model year. If you recall, 1963 was the first year for the thin door frames, quite unlike 1962 and earlier sedan models.

Somewhere along the final line was a guy in charge of "adjusting" the new door frames for proper fit. He was big; I mean big...and strong to match. 'Probably related to Matt on Tru TV's Operation Repo.

He put his knee against the inside trim panel at the back edge of the RF door on a Rose Mist Regal 4-door, after rolling the window down, and gave the top of the door frame such a hard yank that I can't believe it didn't bust a spot weld or two...or maybe it did!

Then he slammed the door and sized up the fit. By George (cousin George Krem, that is, who was with me), it did fit really well!

Those guys did know what they were doing even though, Biggs, it does make you cringe to watch. :DBP

53k
07-09-2009, 06:37 AM
quote:Originally posted by BobPalma


quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs
My guy Mondo is pretty good at making crinkled sheet metal look good again. His abilities with things of a more mechanical nature make me cringe. Heh - when he was re-hanging the doors on the Cruiser, I had to get up and leave. I couldn't watch.

:) One of the most vivid memories I have of taking Studebaker Factory Tours was during the 1963 model year. If you recall, 1963 was the first year for the thin door frames, quite unlike 1962 and earlier sedan models.
Somewhere along the final line was a guy in charge of "adjusting" the new door frames for proper fit. He was big; I mean big...and strong to match. 'Probably related to Matt on Tru TV's Operation Repo.
He put his knee against the inside trim panel at the back edge of the RF door on a Rose Mist Regal 4-door, after rolling the window down, and gave the top of the door frame such a hard yank that I can't believe it didn't bust a spot weld or two...or maybe it did!
Then he slammed the door and sized up the fit. By George (cousin George Krem, that is, who was with me), it did fit really well!
Those guys did know what they were doing even though, Biggs, it does make you cringe to watch. :DBP

That technique wasn't limited to Studebakers. My wife managed to get hit on the driver's door on our 2001 Olds Bravada. The body shop had to replace the door because the internal steel beam was bent. When we picked up the car, the door didn't fit tightly at the top. When we went in to the office to complain, the manager sent "Bruno" out and he did the same thing to the Olds door- fit was perfect.:D



Paul Johnson, Wild and Wonderful West Virginia. '64 Daytona Wagonaire, '64 Daytona convertible, '53 Commander Starliner, Museum R-4 engine, '62 Gravely Model L, '72 Gravely Model 430

http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/Copy%20of%20broken%20circle.jpghttp://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/Copy%20of%201-1-08%20002.jpghttp://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/Copy%20of%201-1-08%20004.jpghttp://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/Forum%20signature%20pix/Copy%20of%201-1-08%20006.jpg

bams50
07-09-2009, 07:28 AM
Very common technique to finish-fit doors like that. Another one- sometimes the bottom edge of a door doesn't align with the rocker, even though all other edges are right on. The fix for that is a 2x4 at just the right angle and a good smack with a short-handled sledge. Works perfect in experienced hands. There are plenty of little tricks like that coming to mind following this story.

I'm realizing how glad I am to have the experience I do from 20 years of making a living at this... it's time that's the problem for me currently. Can't wait to get my old Binks 7 back in my hand, maybe later this year[^]

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag3-1.gif

packardHawk58
07-09-2009, 07:34 AM
Thank God someone stood up for the poor bodymen of the automobile industry.Thanks for your input Canadoug. Sounds like it is the same concept of bodymen across the world. eg Iceland, United States, Australia.

barnlark
07-09-2009, 08:09 AM
Biggsy, sounds like you have things all lined up for future success. Since you're in a small town (and you haven't pizzed off several citizens for some reason :D) the only person likely to do any key damage is this painter. Maybe a not so subtle hint from the shop owner that if that ever happens to your car he'll be fired might be helpful. There's no doubt who did it. Let's hope this guy fades away and thinks twice about what he did.

Canadoug, in any line of work, there are people who are just evil. These people are lifetime repeat offenders. They don't ever change and they really don't care. They get away with it most of the time and just shrug it off when caught. Same as thieves, or shoplifters. You don't have to be Columbo to figure this case out. Nobody here said all bodymen are bad people, or meant that. You simply charge what the work calls for to be profitable. If it looks like too much work, just don't do it! All "do-it-yourselfers" aren't created equal either. I've seen work in this club by non-professionals rank well above, or equal to, any professional work I've seen. They often care more about the project and have more time in which to take that care. I have had to undo bad work from just as many body and mechanical professional jobs that I've overpaid for, as I have had to redo my own sub par efforts! All any of us wants is honesty and to be treated as friends for work done. That's just too complex for some people to figure out these days. If these guys are sick of dealing with customers, they ought to look for a new line of work...on Anthrax Island.

4961Studebaker
07-09-2009, 08:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by bams50

Can't wait to get my old Binks 7 back in my hand, maybe later this year[^]


We definitely want pictures of what your painting. ;)

ChopStu
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/kkad0711/IMG_5406-1.jpg

Roscomacaw
07-09-2009, 11:07 AM
BP, you gave me a good chuckle. Mondo is a little guy. At one point he was trying to figure how to make the NOS front panel fit right. It looked really straight when the UPS guy handed it to me a few weeks ago, but who knows what sorta treatment it's seen in the last 46 years - not to mention it's trip cross-country via UPS???

Anyway, frustrated at one point, he says to me: You're a big, strong guy - why don't YOU see if you can influence that thing. I did and I did.;)
What I was alluding to as to mechanical abilities was the actual attachment of the hinges with the screws. I'm honestly amazed there's any threads left on those fasteners.[B)] I could've intervened, but I kept telling myself that the bigger picture was to be considered. That is to say that I felt if I took the wind out of his sails about his ability to please me with his work, I risked losing his efforts for future projects. He's been doing body work for at least 30 years. Given that I was happy, so far, at the point of hanging the doors back on, I wasn't gonna make him look like a doofus (or maybe make ME look like a doofus in his eyes).

However we got there, the end result was nicely jammed doors fitted expertly (by me, thank you) with fresh, functioning weatherstripping. I'd like to brag that the doors close with the slightest touch, but the new W/S - especially the front section which is completely fasioned with cast rubber instead of the extruded foam stuff - makes the closing of the front doors require some push just before the latch engages. By and large, I was pleasantly surprized at how well the W/S fit. I've gotten to where I just summarily rough up the sides of the rubber that age gonna get glued to the door frame. I use a little drum-sander attachment in a Dremel tool and just lightly burnish the rubber so that the glue will actually grip.:D

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

buddymander
07-09-2009, 01:01 PM
The guy is coockoo. The real problem is that he has probably done this type of thing many times in the past. He relies on everybody else remaining sane. I think I would have threatened the owner with the police unless he helped me complete a background check on the guy. And then I would have involved the police if I found any record of similar behavior. Cops wouldn't believe you without some previous account of the guy being wacko. I would put him out of a job. The shop owner IS liable.

Canadoug
07-09-2009, 10:05 PM
Somewhere out there...there is a DIY'er ...that is as good as you say. It took me 10 years to arrive at my skill level including an apprenticeship .And all the tech school training .....

We all learn from each other. This Forum offers so much information that is valuable.

A DIY'er to a bodyshop is like a guy that shows up at a restaurant with a porkchop in one pocket ...carrots in another ...soup in another ....then asks the waiter for a plate ,fork, and a glass of water.After the meal ...the DIY'er then may or may not gripe and complain to everyone how poorly his meal was ...service slow ..meat tough ..AND SO EXPENSIVE !

Like I said before ....shops LOATHE DIY'ers....

I'm placing my bets on the shop owner as your possible suspect.

But let's have some fun ....

Let's do a poll ....to finger the culprit ...Send your votes in boy's

A The Shop owner

B The Painter

C The Bodyman

D All of the above [ for the conspiracy theorists ]

E An unknown assailant

:D

sweetolbob
07-09-2009, 10:38 PM
Doug

I'm not sure how you have interperted this thread as a DIY'ers versus Professional situation.

Biggs started off by talking about how he hired "professionals" so he did not have to do it himself and depended on those folks to deliver what they promised which did not happen entoto.

As a DIY'er myself, you and I will have a problem meeting on a common ground. I do my own work because it is what I love to do and I do a decent job. Is it professional quality, heck no, but it's good enough to draw compliments from the non-professionals I find at most car shows.

The reason most folks go to professionals is that they expect to reach a deal that will deliver a quality product for the agreed upon price.

This did not happen with Bigg's situation and therefore the professionals did not deliver.

Please don't turn this into a DIY vs Professional comparison. It is not that.

Bob





http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh263/sweetolbob/P1000416.jpg?t=1227109182

Dick Steinkamp
07-09-2009, 11:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by Canadoug

Like I said before ....shops LOATHE DIY'ers....



I'm sure SOME do, but that hasn't been my experience.

There are likely bad people in good shops, good people in bad shops, bad people in bad shops, and good people in good shops. I've been lucky enough to find the last one. Helpful, knowledgeable, friendly, flexible, generous. I'll bet they get more business in the long run than those that loathe folks with less skill than they have.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics066-2-1.jpg

Warren Webb
07-09-2009, 11:48 PM
I visited my old shop today. I have been out of work since January. ALL the guys said the same thing. "things are so slow, they are graitful for any work that comes their way. Especially in todays economy, shops cant pick & choose like they could 2-3 yrs ago. True, all their referral work from DRP's (direct repair programs from ins. co's) have to come first, so customer pay jobs are more of a fill. Also, our cars arent usually found in shops anymore & bodymen found that remember working on them are in their late 50's or ready to retire, so work thats done is slower & more deliberate due to nessessity, unless you leave your car with someone that just doesnt give a d@m. Biggs has done it right in my book. He has hired a known professional to do the rough stuff & lets them do their job, not being an armchair quarterback. When one type of material was rejected, he didnt scoff the person, but went right away to make it right, showing respect for the knoledge & ability of the person. How he was (& the car!) treated is another matter!! Did he deserve it? ABSOLUTLY NOT! Did he handle it right? No question, probably better than 99 people out of 100. If he was my customer & that happened I have no question that I would have done whatever I could to make up for not just his inconvenience, but my embarrasment representing a person to be that dispicable to degrade the reputation of not just the shop, but myself & my own morals.

60 Lark convertible
61 Champ
62 Daytona convertible
63 G.T. R-2,4 speed
63 Avanti (2)
66 Daytona Sport Sedan

wcarroll@outrageous.net
07-10-2009, 12:39 AM
My bet's on the Butler :D

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

Canadoug
07-10-2009, 01:11 AM
sweetoldbob , do professionals work for peach's ?;)

What can I get for a watermelon ?[}:)]

On a serious note.... it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE for an amateur-DIY'er to obtain PROFESSIONAL results. So what distinguish's the two ?

TIME. The professional produces in a fraction of the time that an amateur takes to accomplish the same results. Plain and Simple.

TIME = MONEY

When I was on the bench ...and it was slow ...we had a running joke among ourselves that we expected to see wheelbarrows and rusty submarines dragged into the shop by the management !

Anything to get 40 hours. But I have no recollection of any DIY jobs.

Good shops DO NOT ACCEPT THIS WORK.

And on behalf of every PROFESSIONAL mechanic out there ,I laugh at the notion that some amateur shade tree DIY'er is my equal.[B)]

There is always some *#%#&%$ with attitude. The older they get ...
the faster they ran as a boy.

Roscomacaw
07-10-2009, 01:20 AM
Doug,

I don't wanna be confrontational here. Truth is, I never met the shop owner until I spoke to him on Tuesday morning. He told me in no uncertain terms, that he's given his painter permission to use their facilities any day the shop's closed to the public. He said: "Times are tough, if my guy can make a few extra bucks with side jobs - more power to him."

Once he (the boss) realized I wasn't gonna rag on HIM for what had happened, he was MORE then reasonable about the matter. He even suggested another out-of-work painter that might be willing.
Man, if the boss had a beef with me, my hat's off to him for how he fooled me.

I'm sorry if you took this whole saga as a personal affront or a ragging on those of the collision repair industry. I simply laid out my experience(s) and made my case. I'm not gonna pursue it any further here.;)

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

5859
07-10-2009, 02:24 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Canadoug
[To make matters worse , the work is judged unfairly. Often by those with little or no knowledge. IE ...the bodywork is wavy !Really ? Go to your nearest new car dealer ...you wanna see waves ? Right from the Factory. While you are there ...check out the paint ...not too many there in perfection ....IF you know what you are looking for [}:)]

The few cars I have had body worked and painted by "profesionals" have turned out exactly as you described. My question is this: why pay a "profesional" when I can achieve the same crumby results as a do it yourselfer?