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kompressor 57
12-28-2006, 04:45 PM
I have a Golden Hawk 1957, when driving at 55mph the rear axle shaft snapped off, could anyone please tell me if they have any problems either with a similar year or model.

sbca96
12-28-2006, 04:52 PM
Yes, unfortunately, this will become more and more common, I have had
one break on my 60 Hawk going around a corner. A friend had one break
on a 1961 Hawk about a year later, I know a guy in town that had one
break on a Lark ... its scary. The "problem" is the nature of the way
the hubs are attached to the tapered axle. It creates a stress area
right near the end of the taper. Over time these crack, and then as
you experienced, they break. I hope you didnt hit anything. What is
worse is the single master cylinder, as you most likely found out, you
lose your brakes completely. Contact Fairborn Studebaker for the best
way to fix your axle for good, its a flanged upgrade kit.

http://www.fairbornstudebaker.com/

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

sntsftbll
12-28-2006, 05:02 PM
Don't feel so bad today I saw a late model Dodge p/u that had just made a turn on the busiest intersection in town lo and behold his axle slid out of his housing almost all the way he came to rest on the shaft. So it happens to more than just our beloved cars. Yes I did laugh a bit at his plight, of course it will bite me soon I know

Spule 4
12-28-2006, 05:38 PM
This is not just a Stude problem, your native Volvos of the 1960s did/do the same things, one of the things that caused them to pull out of factory team rallying along with a fatality in the 1965 or 66 Acropolis. The half shaft would sheer right at the drum backing plate.

Age and metal fatigue will both be factors too I am afraid.....[B)]

Garrett

Mike Van Veghten
12-28-2006, 07:55 PM
Tom...

The stress you mention at the end of the hub..
Isn't almost identical to the stress created between a flanged axle and the pressed on bearing?

I've had a few (of the big three) fail there too. Luckily not ever going very fast!

Mike

John Kirchhoff
12-28-2006, 11:17 PM
I never thought about busting an axle, but I bet if a person took them to a machine shop (before they crack) and have them cut a half radius groove where the taper meets the shaft, that would prevent the cracking. You'd think cutting a groove would make them more prone to breaking, but a groove like that causes the lines of stress to go around the groove (on the inside) much like driving around a pothole. Apparently as it is now the stress hits the machined shoulder and makes a sharp turn outward which causes metal fatigue.

sbca96
12-28-2006, 11:23 PM
Yes .. the stress area is the same on a flanged axle, but there is a
bit more material there to take the brunt. There is also not the two
pieces, the 200 foot pounds pulling on the taper to hold the hub on.
The tapered axles also get cycled over and over with the hubs being
removed and forced back on. I found that the hubs get distorted over
time, when I checked the runout on my rear disc conversion.

No matter how you slice it, there is a time bomb ticking.

Tom

Mike Van Veghten
12-28-2006, 11:27 PM
John...a very true statement as far as the undercut goes..

But...this needs to be done before the final heat treatment is done. Apparently the manufacturers don't feel it's nesessary or they would be doing it...even at the extra cost.
If you don't heat treat "after" the undercut, you will open a soft section of material where a hard surface once was...not a good idea for the same reasons why one would do the undercut in the first place.

The Buick V-6 was a good example.
The standard crank shaft looked like any other crank shaft. But the Grand National cranks..then later "all" of the turbo engined cranks and all of the over the counter "race" cranks....were undercut on the rod throws to help promot crank strength.

Mike

hank63
12-29-2006, 05:52 AM
Well mates, it's not a total surprise that some mechanical bits fail after 40 or 50 years of service (abuse?). Perhaps someone can take a drive shaft and subject it to a dye penetrant check, followed by a magnetic particle check and give as an analysis.
It might be useful to know what (if anything) shows up in those 2 checks. A dye-pen check is not teribly difficult to do, mag particle requires the specialised equipment that only work shops have. The dye-pen spray cans anybody can buy and use.
Any takers?
/H

John Kirchhoff
12-29-2006, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the expert follow up Mike. You too Hank, I hadn't even thought of that. Over here we call that process magnaflux and would probably be pretty cheap considering the damage would be done when your axle unscrews itself.

sntsftbll
12-29-2006, 09:31 AM
This is a problem for the Ford Model T also the T also has tapered axles. There are a couple of aftermarket safety hubs produced to counter this. For the T they require some machining of the hub but they are designed to keep the wheel on if something like this happens. Now a T doesn't have hyd. brakes and springs in the way they are much more simple. Not sure if you could have something like this copied for a more modern vehicle. But it might be worth a look at them to see if they could be adapted

tstclr
12-29-2006, 11:51 AM
I think for my 64 6 cyl Daytona I'll buy a flanged Dana 27 at SASCO when I go this Spring. At under $300 bucks for a complete unit (with TT), why wouldn't I?

Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan
64 Daytona 4dr Sedan

kompressor 57
12-29-2006, 03:18 PM
Thank you all for your comments, I have found them to be highly useful. In order to replace the snapped axle shaft I am considering replacing the existing shaft with a Ford 9 inch rear axle. Could you please let me know whether you consider the potential replacement to be sufficient or whether the Ford 9 inch rear axle may in the future also snap. Thank you again for your comments in assisting me.

Transtar60
12-29-2006, 03:43 PM
Get the axle kit from Fairborn. It may look expensive but by the time you adapt the ford axle, you know, spring pads, brakes, e-brake cables,ujoints etc you will money ahead. Also the Fairborn kit doesnt require removal from the car of the axle assembly.
Only one of my Studes has a Ford 9 inch, a '62 Champ pickup. It was installed by a previous owner and I havent gotten around to replacing IT with a Dana 44TT from a 63 Champ just yet.

3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

Mike Van Veghten
12-29-2006, 08:51 PM
Kom...

Transtar is right in this case.

Though if you do put the Ford in...with the big axles....youl'd need a "LOT" of hp to break those big shafts.

Concidering cost and time out of service...the Harbit/Fairborn axles should hold up just fine for everything under about 600hp!!

Mike

kompressor 57
12-30-2006, 11:33 AM
I hope that the discussion about the rear axle can contribute to increased safety with us all in Studebakers!
In my case the axle shaft snapped off at 55 mph and the car slid uncontrollably on 3 wheels without a working brake for 400 metres. The car was in flames and as you can imagine badly damaged. I am glad that nobody was injured during the accident.
To prevent this from happening to others it might be better to choose a rear flanged-axle conversion kit from Fairborn or 9" Ford which will last for longer and ensure the safety of the Studebaker drivers.
Thank you all again for your comments which I have found to be most useful.

Mike Van Veghten
12-30-2006, 12:45 PM
There is many different axle options, even the lowly Ford 8" would work well.

I installed a Winters, Quick Change in the back of my Conestoga. A little "old world" flavor!

Mike

sbca96
12-30-2006, 11:49 PM
Yes .. safety first. You might want to purchase one of the available
dual master cylinder upgrades while you are under there. I wouldnt
drive a Studebaker without this VERY important modification. To add
to the Ford 9" vs Dana 44, the Dana is actually a very tough axle, its
the tapered axles that become the liabilty. The Fairborn kit makes it
virtually indestructible, and considerably less cost then installing
a 9" axle into a Stude.

Tom

hank63
12-31-2006, 01:20 AM
There are lots of cars with single-circuit master cylinder. It's not inherently dangerous, one just have to ensure the hand brake functions and undertake scheduled maintenance.
There are so many single-function solutions in a car, why should the master cylinder be any worse?
One failed stub axle, ball joint or exploded front tyre (to name a few) is sure to cause grief if you travel at reasonable speed.
The answer is, of course, keep your Studebaker in good order and you can drive with confidence.
/H

Sonny
12-31-2006, 03:26 AM
I feel strongly that the BIGgest cause of mechanical maladies is ABUSE, in particular, the fact that most owners simply do not practice proper preventative maintenance! There has been literally millions of cars AND trucks, manufactured by many different automobile makers, that have put billions of miles on tapered axles. The fact that it takes some bending over and getting greasy while using tools, with alarming regularity, is the only thing really “wrong” with tapered axles……

Tapered axle type, rear axle assemblies require that the maintenance schedule be strictly followed, as set forth in the manufacturer’s maintenance manual, (which is normally, roundly ignored unless something breaks or falls off). To wit, regular inspections, regular re-torques, regular repacking of the wheel bearings! Yep, repacking of the rear wheel bearings! If data regarding the rare malfunction of tapered axles were to be collected, utilizing scientific regimens, (instead of employing antidotal evidence), there is no doubt that the LARGEST majority of malfunctions would be contributed to “owner error”.

FWIW, I plan to put as many different models as possible, of the car and light truck, Dana tapered rear axle assemblies, supplied by our beloved car manufacturer, through as much hell as I can possibly muster. The form of torture will be drag racing stints. I JUST want to see for myself, (and more likely prove), that unless someone simply pounds the piss out of a tapered rear axle assembly, AND/OR fails to complete the required maintenance schedules/procedures, Dana tapered rear axle assemblies are MORE THAN ADEQUATE for the given task. Let there be no doubt, what so ever, flanged axles are more resistant to abuse. If there is consistent abuse, then there is also no doubt that flanged axles should be employed.

Once again, I do NOT believe that “the sky is falling”! Continuing to employ the “Chicken Little” tactics to convince others that there is a bomb with the fuse lit amongst us is a very dangerous path to take. Regulatory agencies are Always looking for ways to remove our ability to enjoy our beloved Studebakers on modern roads. I think all can agree that there are already far too many of the strictest laws across this land, in multiple layers, (burg, town, city, county, state, federal), designed to protect us from ourselves…..

IF there really IS such great concern, I suggest that WE come up with our own collective plan to remedy the rare occasion of axle malfunction due to widespread abuse, before it becomes “official”. Don’t think the abuse is wide spread? Just turn around to the club member sitting next to you at the next club meeting and ask him/her if they can remember the last time they even repacked their rear wheel bearings…..

I suggest that this widespread abuse problem be approached via an educational format, seminars perhaps, at any/every meeting of the masses, a “How To”, technical flyer distributed amongst the masses, a “How To” article in the SDC website technical section, a “How To” article in Turning Wheels, and on and on. Educating a problem away is MUCH more satisfactory than having “our protectors” legislating it away……

One last thing…… I’ve had the pleasure of operating various Studebakers, including various years of manufacture, within a number of various parameters. Unless I was simply abusing the car, OR the braking system wasn’t properly adjusted/maintained, I have NEVER had occasion to feel ANYthing but completely safe and secure regarding the factory installed, Studebaker braking systems. I certainly am NOT the last authority on what constitutes a superior braking system. However, I DO know what constitutes an adequate braking system, that knowledge being accumulated by over 40 years of driving and racing, (in nearly every clime and place). Once again, if there be consistent abuse of the factory installed braking system, I highly recommend employing a braking system designed to reduce the effects of such abuse……




Sonny
http://racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpghttp://

sbca96
12-31-2006, 04:55 AM
Wow Sonny, tell us what you REALLY think ....

Seriously, I am assuming that you have never experienced either of
these unfortunate failures. Abuse can break anything, but certain
things are a given. If a dual braking system isnt important, why did
all manufacturers change over by the end of the 60's? Have any of
you TRIED to stop your car with the PARKING brake? Good luck, its a
laughable endeavor. Perhaps tapered axles breaking isnt such a big
deal, but part of what you said was strict maintainence. In a world
of "lifetime" unservicable parts, how many of our Stude have actually
had ALL the zerks greased in the past 10 years? Getting your tapered
axles checked for cracks IS a realistic process, and one that I just
went through with my Avanti. I have not upgraded to the Fairborn kit,
but it is on my list. Knowing that my axles are not cracked gives me
peace of mind, something I suggest to all Stude owners to do. I broke
an axle on my Hawk while in high school, there was no off road harsh
abuse, & the rear axle was a peg leg (open), so it wasnt from constant
drag strip abuse either. It simply broke from age/use. From the looks
of the break point, it had been cracked about 70% thru for long enough
to develop rust inside the crack.

Back to the dual masters ... I had a REAR wheel cylinder fail on my
60 Hawk AFTER a complete overhaul. The failed part was the rubber cup
inside the wheel cylinder. The rubber had a manufacturing flaw, and
air bubble which "blew thru". I lost my brakes coming off the freeway,
and quickly found that stopping the Hawk wasnt going to be easy. I
was very VERY lucky that day running through TWO red lights! The only
casualty was a parking lot sign and a dent on my fender. The next
week I upgraded my Avanti to a dual master (Avanti II part number), at
the time there wasnt a dual system available for C/K cars. There had
been no long term abuse on that Hawk - just bad luck / real life.

I take safety VERY seriously, and there is no excuse to skimp on the
ability to stop your car as fast and best you can.

There could have been a family in either crosswalk that day....

Tom

hank63
12-31-2006, 08:42 AM
Yeah well, wait until you see your front wheel travelling down the hwy in front of you. Next thing i was sliding on 3 wheels in a muddy field. That was caused by a seized font wheel bearing which simply sheared off the stub axle at 60 mph.
In those days I practised "break-down" maintenance. Now I check and grease VERY regularly.
Of course dual master cylinders are better due to the built-in redundency, but what's next? Air bags?
I'm with Sonny,look after the &*$%% thing and it will work pretty well.
/H

tstclr
12-31-2006, 01:22 PM
I read somewhere that there is supposed to be a plug behind the backing plates that removes with a slot screwdriver and a zerk fitting can be installed in it's place to grease the rear axle bearings. Is this just on 44 axles? My 27 doesn't have them and it looks like a BIG job to repack them!

Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan
64 Daytona 4dr Sedan

Sonny
12-31-2006, 06:48 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Wow Sonny, tell us what you REALLY think ....

Seriously, I am assuming that you have never experienced either of
these unfortunate failures. Abuse can break anything, but certain
things are a given. If a dual braking system isn’t important, why did
all manufacturers change over by the end of the 60's? Have any of
you TRIED to stop your car with the PARKING brake? Good luck, its a
laughable endeavor. Perhaps tapered axles breaking isn’t such a big
deal, but part of what you said was strict maintenance. In a world
of "lifetime" unserviceable parts, how many of our Stude have actually
had ALL the zerks greased in the past 10 years? Getting your tapered
axles checked for cracks IS a realistic process, and one that I just
went through with my Avanti. I have not upgraded to the Fairborn kit,
but it is on my list. Knowing that my axles are not cracked gives me
peace of mind, something I suggest to all Stude owners to do. I broke
an axle on my Hawk while in high school, there was no off road harsh
abuse, & the rear axle was a peg leg (open), so it wasn’t from constant
drag strip abuse either. It simply broke from age/use. From the looks
of the break point, it had been cracked about 70% thru for long enough
to develop rust inside the crack.

Back to the dual masters ... I had a REAR wheel cylinder fail on my
60 Hawk AFTER a complete overhaul. The failed part was the rubber cup
inside the wheel cylinder. The rubber had a manufacturing flaw, and
air bubble which "blew thru". I lost my brakes coming off the freeway,
and quickly found that stopping the Hawk wasn’t going to be easy. I
was very VERY lucky that day running through TWO red lights! The only
casualty was a parking lot sign and a dent on my fender. The next
week I upgraded my Avanti to a dual master (Avanti II part number), at
the time there wasn’t a dual system available for C/K cars. There had
been no long term abuse on that Hawk - just bad luck / real life.

I take safety VERY seriously, and there is no excuse to skimp on the
ability to stop your car as fast and best you can.

There could have been a family in either crosswalk that day....

Tom


Heck yeah, if you wanna know what ol' Sonny is thinking, just wait a few seconds......:D

Anyway, have you never heard the admonition, "Never ASSume.."? ;) Did I mention that I've been tooling around this fine ol' country of ours for at least 40 years? Of course I've experienced both of these failures. The scariest time was in my custom, '55 Dodge panel truck, original rear end, (tapered axles). Headed home from an outing, very late at night, two very young sons asleep on the shag carpet in the back, the right rear axle broke, made a HUGE jump into the air, the tire took out the lower quarter, exited out under the rear of the truck then went over the guard rail and down the ravine to our right, (wife following in our Ford wagon said LOTS of sparks)! Got it stopped, fairly easily and straight as I remember, easing in a little emergency brake, (the Dodge uses a drum style emergency brake on the end of the tranny), and exited, no injuries. The big jump did wake up my boys though! :D

Moral of the story, I had heard "something" in the rear end for about a week but continued to drive it every day to work. I was planning a 9 inch Ford anyway so I foolishly thought, "The hell with it, it goes, it goes...". Well, obviously I'd never thought that the failure would be that bad, and would never have allowed the kids to ride with Dad, both very dumb moves. BTW, I'm STILL looking for that wheel! :D

Dual braking systems, flanged axles, sealed bearings, electronic avoidance systems, "On-Star", anti-tip-over systems, little palm devices to open/close doors and arm/disarm security systems, etc., etc. were developed for three reasons

Sonny
12-31-2006, 08:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by tstclr

I read somewhere that there is supposed to be a plug behind the backing plates that removes with a slot screwdriver and a zerk fitting can be installed in it's place to grease the rear axle bearings. Is this just on 44 axles? My 27 doesn't have them and it looks like a BIG job to repack them!

Todd


63 Lark 2dr Sedan
64 Daytona 4dr Sedan


Yep, some axles, (early of course), came with a way to grease those wheel bearings Todd. However, every Dana tapered style axle assembly can be configured to allow for greasing the bearing without removing the wheel. You will need to remove the wheel to drill and thread the hole, (to be able to clean the metal particles from the drill/tap), but that's a small price to pay to get this great option.

However Todd, I would add, although the zerk fitting in the axle makes it easier to grease that bearing, I might consider removing the wheel at every other grease interval just to check everything out. The "book", (maintenance manual), calls for retorqueing the wheel nut at certain intervals, and depending on how much the car is driven, (or NOT driven), I just like to look things over no matter what.

In fact, (correct me if I'm mistaken fellas), I believe I saw in the "book", the procedure for installing that zerk fitting in the event that the car was not equipped with it, (gotta check it out to be sure)...

Happy Studebakering!

Sonny
http://racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpghttp://RacingStudebakers.com

sbca96
12-31-2006, 08:49 PM
I dont know why you guys feel the need to exaggerate the issue, adding
air bags to a Stude?? I dont think so. Thats a bit different then a
simple upgrade to a dual master cylinder, and checking your axles for
cracks. My 60 Hawk axle gave NO warning - just broke. Same with my
friends 61 Hawk, and a buddies Lark. The danger is real, taking the
steps to avoid a failure is a responsibility. It doesnt mean you have
to do the Fairborn kit, but checking axles is being preventative.

Mah "chitt" is togetha mayne, jez takin duh time to do it right, yo!
Its just me funding it how I can - takes time. It will be done when
its done. "We will sell no wine before its time".:D;)

Not all new technology is worth while, how about the Lexus that parks
itself, or does it:D;)[:p]? Humor for the New Year!

http://www.fquick.com/videos/viewvideo.php?id=520

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
12-31-2006, 09:00 PM
Sonny,
'The Book' does show how to put in the zerk to lube the bearing, but it also says to remove the zerk after servicing and replace it with the plug. I do believe their thought process was that a trained Studebaker technician would put in the appropriate amount of grease, but a gas station jockey would just pump grease in until it came out somewhere[:0]...
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Sonny
<snip>
In fact, (correct me if I'm mistaken fellas), I believe I saw in the "book", the procedure for installing that zerk fitting in the event that the car was not equipped with it, (gotta check it out to be sure)...
Happy Studebakering!
Sonny
http://racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpghttp://RacingStudebakers.com


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Sonny
12-31-2006, 09:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

I dont know why you guys feel the need to exaggerate the issue, adding
air bags to a Stude?? I dont think so. Thats a bit different then a
simple upgrade to a dual master cylinder, and checking your axles for
cracks. My 60 Hawk axle gave NO warning - just broke. Same with my
friends 61 Hawk, and a buddies Lark. The danger is real, taking the
steps to avoid a failure is a responsibility. It doesnt mean you have
to do the Fairborn kit, but checking axles is being preventative.

Mah "chitt" is togetha mayne, jez takin duh time to do it right, yo!
Its just me funding it how I can - takes time. It will be done when
its done. "We will sell no wine before its time".:D;)

Not all new technology is worth while, how about the Lexus that parks
itself, or does it:D;)[:p]? Humor for the New Year!

http://www.fquick.com/videos/viewvideo.php?id=520

Tom


Mebbe just pickin' on ya about air bags, BUT you make an EXcellent point!! Damn right you want to check those axles for cracks! IF YOU, yourself, have not been maintaining the car, then for God's sakes, pull and check those axles! They may have suffered YEARS of abuse at someone else's hands, ya just never know!

I'm not gonna hurry ya along on that brake setup, (well, you mean like a lot of pressure to hurry up?! :D), but I DO wanna check out the setup, it's lookin' lots better, (with the new pieces).

A car that parks itself? (yawn....) Well, at least we know what the next "upgrade" will be on "Unique Penis Heads", Oops, I mean "Unique Whoops", or "Pimp My Sister", or whatever......[:o)][:p]

Sonny
http://racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpghttp://RacingStudebakers.com

JDP
01-01-2007, 01:08 AM
I've broken three tapered axles out of several 100 cars, but one is too many. Actually, the last one was broken by the winning bidder "test driving" his new R2 Lark purchase. As luck would have it, it let go in a low speed turn and only caused the car to cease to move any further.

http://stude.com/sig.jpg
JDP
Arnold Md.
Studebaker On The Net
http://stude.com
My Ebay Items
http://www.stude.com/EBAY/

64 GT hawk
64 Commander 2 dr.
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) #2
63 Avanti R1
63 Daytona convert
63 Lark 2 door
63 Lark 2 door #2
62 Lark 2 door
60 Hawk
59 3E truck
52 Starliner
51 Commander

bams50
01-01-2007, 09:09 AM
I like the reason Jim Turner gave me for developing his brake stuff: Got tired of the "push and pray" method of braking :D

BOY, can I relate.....................[:0]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

kompressor 57
01-01-2007, 09:57 AM
When I repair my car after the axle has snapped maybe at the same time I will upgrade my Golden Hawk and put some AIRBAGS in it, thanks for the good tip!

According to the advice from Sbca96 the upgrade to the dual master cylinder is the one that I will go for. This is because when I tried to brake I almost pressed the pedal through the floor when I was trying to stop my Stude whilst sliding on three wheels.

Thanks again for all your help, Happy New Year and Happy Studebaker driving in 2007.

DEEPNHOCK
01-01-2007, 11:37 AM
Yessir.
Once that drum was off, you had no brakes at all.
Makes the regular application of the parking brake
(to keep the flex cable free'd up) suddenly seem imperitive.
The upgrade to a dual master cylinder has been one of the first safety upgrades done by many, many Stude drivers through the years. It has been written about and posted on many, many forums and newsgroups. Good info that is worth repeating.
The Jim Turner dual conversion for Hawks is nice because the bracket he supplies is a rugged unit that will bolt on easily.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by kompressor 57

<snip>
This is because when I tried to brake I almost pressed the pedal through the floor when I was trying to stop my Stude whilst sliding on three wheels.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Sonny
01-01-2007, 03:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

I've broken three tapered axles out of several 100 cars, but one is too many. Actually, the last one was broken by the winning bidder "test driving" his new R2 Lark purchase. As luck would have it, it let go in a low speed turn and only caused the car to cease to move any further.

http://stude.com/sig.jpg
JDP
Arnold Md.
Studebaker On The Net
http://stude.com
My Ebay Items
http://www.stude.com/EBAY/

64 GT hawk
64 Commander 2 dr.
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) #2
63 Avanti R1
63 Daytona convert
63 Lark 2 door
63 Lark 2 door #2
62 Lark 2 door
60 Hawk
59 3E truck
52 Starliner
51 Commander




THAT had to be a sale "buster" huh? [xx(] Sounds like MY luck... "Yessir! It runs like a bear. Here's the keys, drive 'er around the block and see for yourself!" [:0] D'Oh!....

BTW, you have a LOT of high performance Stude experience/experiences, it'd be nice to get a little of that input on the racing forums. [8D]

Sonny
http://racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpghttp://RacingStudebakers.com

Chicken Hawk
01-01-2007, 06:29 PM
In response to the tapered axles, I hesitate to get involved with these discussions but since I have turned over all my dealings with the flanged axles to Malcolm Berry and Phil Harris and I get no proceeds from the sale of such, I think I should shed another perspective on the tapered axles. In no way am I trying to offend anyone or side with anyone. I just want to put my opinion forth as others have done.

I am in no way trying to talk anyone into buying the flanged axles. That is a decision everyone must make for themselves. I know there are thousands of tapered axles out there and most will probably never break but we know several have and most likely several more will, especially as they age more.

I think the presumption that proper maintenance will extend the life of the tapered axles is a little misleading. I say this because practically all the axles that break do so on the OUTSIDE of the bearing. If the bearings are neglected and fail this would cause the axle to break somewhere between the bearing and the splines (inward) since the strain would be from the bearing to the splines not the outside of the axle near the key where most break.

The maintenance of checking the torque periodically, etc., can help but in my opinion is not going to go very far in stopping breakage. I have only broken one axle and that was on George Krem's R 3 but we had changed axles a couple of times as we kept an eye on them and as soon as we would see a wobble indicating one was bent, we would replace it. Keep in mind although this was being drag raced, it was always on street tires. And the car today only has a little over 14,000 actual miles. Racing our cars in the Pure Stock races prompted us to explore getting the flanged axles made.

I bent several in the '51 when racing with the stock 232 engine and using 7" slicks. Again, I kept an eye on them and replaced them whenever I saw one starting to wobble. This is not to say all axles will not break until they start to wobble. They can break anytime and the one on the R 3 was not wobbling the last time I had checked it.

Why do these axles break? Think of the axle as a big wire. If you twist and bend a wire long enough it will eventually break. Every time you start, this puts a slight twist on the axles. Every time you stop, it does the same and every time you back up, it does the same and every time you shift gears, it does the same. Granted, this is a very miniscule amount of twist but after 100,000+ miles and years of use (now as high as 57 years!) this twisting will add up and eventually, like the wire, the axle most likely may break.

Here may be a little more than you care to know about the new flanged axles. Moser makes them but they are not ready made to put in. Phil and Malcolm spend a lot of time preparing the axles AFTER they pick them up from Moser. They check them for exact length so hopefully the buyer will have enough shims to set the end play exactly where he wants it. The axles are made a slight bit too long and they then cut the ends off to an exact length. They have them made this way because if they are too short, there is nothing they can do to correct this.

Next they keep a new side gear on hand to be sure the splines in the axle will go into the gear. They also press the outer bearings on as well as machine locating rings to center the drum, supply instructions with pictures, etc. These axles look very much like the same ones I have in the Chicken Hawk with the 9" Ford rear end. I really don't think the youngest Stude driver out there can abuse them enough in his lifetime to ever break one of these.

Again, I hope I have not offended anyone but feel my experience and opinion might shed some new light on the subject.

Ted


[quote]quote:Originally posted by Sonny

[quote]quote:<

mbstude
01-01-2007, 09:07 PM
quote:and TWICE broke a rear axle during regular street driving.

I'd sure hate to see you drive when you have more confidence in your cars! That one wild ride was pretty scary! [:0];)[:o)]

Oh, see you in Hahira?

___________________________________________

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, Georgia
'59 Scotsman PU
'63 Daytona HT

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/mbstude/Scotsman%20pickup/cool_man_3.jpg

http://mbstudebaker.blogspot.com/

sbca96
01-01-2007, 09:15 PM
Thanks for your input Ted, I feel like "God" has spoken.:D;)[:p]

Unfortunately, without that rear drum, that parking brake wont work
either, you can pull your heart out! A dual braking system will at
least still activate the front brakes, which do about 70-80% of your
braking anyway. I dont know how Turner does his dual master for C/Ks
but back when one didnt exist, I was going to add a second single to
the existing one, since they are a bolt though design. Plumb one to
the front, & the other to the rear (I had decided to use the "outer"
one for the rear), and make a simple bar to connect them to the pedal.
Before I had a chance to make that modification, I totalled the car in
an accident that was unrelated to brakes (pulling out of a driveway).

Tom


quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

[navy][b]Yessir.
Once that drum was off, you had no brakes at all.
Makes the regular application of the parking brake
(to keep the flex cable free'd up) suddenly seem imperitive.

DEEPNHOCK
01-01-2007, 09:52 PM
The parking brake will work on the other wheel.
But the braking will be very poor, at best.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Thanks for your input Ted, I feel like "God" has spoken.:D;)[:p]

Unfortunately, without that rear drum, that parking brake wont work
either, you can pull your heart out! A dual braking system will at
least still activate the front brakes, which do about 70-80% of your
braking anyway. I dont know how Turner does his dual master for C/Ks
but back when one didnt exist, I was going to add a second single to
the existing one, since they are a bolt though design. Plumb one to
the front, & the other to the rear (I had decided to use the "outer"
one for the rear), and make a simple bar to connect them to the pedal.
Before I had a chance to make that modification, I totalled the car in
an accident that was unrelated to brakes (pulling out of a driveway).

Tom


quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

[navy][b]Yessir.
Once that drum was off, you had no brakes at all.
Makes the regular application of the parking brake
(to keep the flex cable free'd up) suddenly seem imperitive.


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Sonny
01-02-2007, 01:42 AM
quote:Originally posted by Chicken Hawk

In response to the tapered axles, I hesitate to get involved with these discussions but since I have turned over all my dealings with the flanged axles to Malcolm Berry and Phil Harris and I get no proceeds from the sale of such, I think I should shed another perspective on the tapered axles. In no way am I trying to offend anyone or side with anyone. I just want to put my opinion forth as others have done.......

&lt;Snipped ONLY to save room&gt;


Ted

Hey Ted!

You KNOW how much I respect your way-o-thinkin', and I can't thank you enough for jumping in. Your comments certainly add another dimension to the conundrum of tapered axle problems. No doubt, you have MANY, many years more Stude experience than just about anyone, in fact, you probably have more time SITTING in a Studebaker than I have owning a Stude! But please hang in there a minute and let me explain why I’m thinkin’ the way I do about this.

I’m an aeronautical engineer, and never did get deep into the metallurgy science, more flight science for me. But, the engineer in me sees an absolute need for some real metallurgy and stress testing before we can really understand where the real problem is. I understand your example of an axle acting like a wire, and I agree wholeheartedly, but that same twisting moment occurs in any/every axle.

The difference in the tapered and flanged axles is the “fitment”. The tapered axle depends on that nut to tighten the hub assembly to “make it one” with the axle, in fact it's critical. The tight drum, (properly set at 180 foot pounds), actually IS the strength of the axle outboard of the bearing. If that nut is not properly tightened, and allows ANY slack, [u]what so ever</u>, along with the twisting moment of the axle, along with the "weakened" axle, you have the drum applying twist to the outboard END of the axle, via the key, as you said, every time you start or stop.

Now, add a bearing that's running much hotter than it's supposed to be running, (expands and relieves the "stretched metal" of the tight axle), stop the car, it cools off. Can/will the drum remain tight after a few abnormal renditions of this? Finally, (and this is a BIG “perhaps, maybe, could be”), perhaps there was some “Friday afternoon or Monday morning” axle pours at the Dana factory that got out the door, I just dunno. BUT, if that were the case, add a loose drum, a bearing that’s constantly running much hotter than it’s supposed to be, and……???

Of the two broken tapered axles I’ve had, the one on the Dodge panel was broken just inside the bearing, (56k miles), and just outside the bearing on my 60 Stude, (about 70K). Both of these vehicles had been sitting for a long time and as far as I know neither had been raced, (flat sixes in both). BUT, I didn’t know about re-torque and repacking back then, never touched them as far as preventive maintenance. I had the Dodge on the road about 3 months when it let go and the Stude was runnin’ for only about a month.

I discovered after the fact that the Dodge uses a funky internal adjusting nut with a lock feature, (special tools required), instead of shims, to adjust end-play. There’s no doubt, at a MINIMUM, the bad (for a while) bearing finished off the Dodge, but the axle shouldn’t have broken! I think what I was hearing for that week or so before the failure was a loose drum. Bad news is, I'll never know 'cause I'm STILL lookin' for that damn Dodge wheel! I’ve had a number of bad rear wheel bearings in 9 inch Fords, NEVER heard a thing, but never broke an axle. Unless there really was an anomaly in the metallurgy, (bad mfg. process, bad metal), in axle assemblies sent to different car makers, what else could the failures be attributed to?

Anyway, I have tapered axles that can be used for

sbca96
01-02-2007, 04:47 AM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

The parking brake will work on the other wheel.
But the braking will be very poor, at best.
Jeff[8D]

I am sorry Jeff, I dont think that is right. Not trying to start an
issue, just want to make sure that there isnt any false hope here. If
my memory is correct, the parking brake "circuit" is a looped steel
cable that attaches on each brake shoe set. The cable goes through a
curved "hook" of sorts, but isnt mechanically fixed to it. So if one
side suddenly has no tension, when the handle is pulled, the cable is
going to slide in the "hook" & never create tension on the remaining
brake shoe assembly. Thats how I remember the setup. If there was
two separate hooked cables, then what you are saying would be true.


quote:Originally posted by SonnyThe tapered axle depends on that nut to tighten the hub assembly to “make it one” with the axle, in fact it's critical. The tight drum, (properly set at 180 foot pounds), actually IS the strength of the axle outboard of the bearing.

Both of the broken axles that I have seen, broke right at the end of
the hub assembly, or where the hub stops when tightened. The extra
strength you are talking about would be inside the taper, but I dont
know of any breaking in there. Its the spot between the bearing and
the hub that I have seen as a break point. Maybe others have seen it
happen in difference areas. Its rare to have the axle break between
the "pumpkin" and the outer bearing except in drag racing. I know of
a guy local to me that was amazed to find the hub was spinning ON the
axle, and the key had broken - yet the axle didnt break (though I bet
it would have if he hadnt noticed the wobble). I have the axle from
the opposite side of his differential in my Avanti right now. He got
the Fairborn kit. I am sorry, I kept my broken axle for YEARS, but I
think that it went with the other Stude parts to the salvage yard in
1995 when my dad sold the house in California. I MIGHT have the end
in a box somewhere, but the rest of the axle shaft is long gone.[V]

Tom

CHAMP
01-02-2007, 07:30 AM
I never thought my eighty horsepower 48 Champion had enough torque to put stress on the rear axles, but I guess I could be wrong? I drive the car very gently!!!

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

DEEPNHOCK
01-02-2007, 08:31 AM
There should be no 'hope' when it comes to brakes.
The loop cable hooks to the flex cable(s) that goes to the backing plate(s).
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/StudebakerParkingBrake.jpg
The drum coming off does not change the connection, or the amount of max travel that each flex cable has built into it.
Pulling on the 'loop' cable will pull equally on both sides.
The one side (without the drum) will move farther than the other side (with the drum), but there is only so much cable movement in the flex cable anyways, so when it moves the full amount (bottoms out)the other side will move. That is why it is important to properly adjust the parking brake cable (per the service manual) after servicing the rear brakes. Having a parking brake that barely applies the rear brakes in normal service could cause a situation where the stroke would not apply the one side, or barely apply the one side. Either way, it is not a situation one would want to be in.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by sbca96
I am sorry Jeff, I dont think that is right. Not trying to start an
issue, just want to make sure that there isnt any false hope here. If
my memory is correct, the parking brake "circuit" is a looped steel
cable that attaches on each brake shoe set. The cable goes through a
curved "hook" of sorts, but isnt mechanically fixed to it. So if one
side suddenly has no tension, when the handle is pulled, the cable is
going to slide in the "hook" & never create tension on the remaining
brake shoe assembly. Thats how I remember the setup. If there was
two separate hooked cables, then what you are saying would be true.
Tom




quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

The parking brake will work on the other wheel.
But the braking will be very poor, at best.
Jeff[8D]

John Kirchhoff
01-02-2007, 11:54 AM
I've been following all this and you guys talking about having broken axles have me kind of concerned now. Makes me think that somewhere in Studebaker heaven there must be busted axles stacked up like cordwood. I'm no metallurgist, engineer, designer, racer or even someone who's broken one, but the reason seems rather simple to me, plain old metal fatigue. Here's my take on it.

Just outside of the bearing the axle diameter decreases as the taper begins. The portion of the taper that is keyed and the drum effectively become as one once things are tightened down. When you apply power to the axle, the entire axle shaft undergoes a torsional load, in other words it twists, except for the portion locked into the brake drum. The tiny part of the axle between the drum and the outboard bearing undergoes not only a torsional load, but lateral loading (side load) as well because the wheel is pulling forward trying to drag the rest of the car along with it. The action of the lateral loading is best compared to the way a tether ball pivots around the pole. To get an idea of what's happening, imagine a universal joint located between the axle bearing and the drum. Apply power and isnstead of the whole differential moving forward, the wheel will crawl forward, pivoting on the U joint. If not for the U joint locking up at around 45 degrees, the wheel would end up at 90 degrees to the axle.

A flanged axle undergoes the same loading except the axle shaft diameter doesn't decrease and the decrease in diameter is in the worst place possible. If anyone sees flaws in my logic, please point it out. I'm sure not saying I'm right, but just postulating a theory.

John Kirchhoff
01-02-2007, 06:26 PM
Unlike my last post, I usually speak after I have the facts, however I now have some facts that may support what I said earlier. I had a Chrysler axle in the shop (from a 225 ci car) that I measured. The splined, inside end of the shaft is 1-1/16" in diameter. It then increases to 1-3/8" thick and the short length of shaft between the bearing and flange is 1-3/4" thick. It seems the diameter of the shaft between the bearing and flange-wheel increases in thickness 27%. So rather than getting smaller because of being machined, it gets bigger and stronger. I don't know how other flanged axles are made, but if the Chrysler axle was going to break, I'd expect it to do so at the narrow area immediately adjacent to the splines where the shaft is 39% smaller than the outside end. I'm not saying the Chrysler axle is stronger than the Stude, but I do think I know where the Stude's weak point is.

sbca96
01-03-2007, 04:15 AM
I see what you are saying, inside the drum, each cable has a spring at
the end between the cable sleeving fixed to the backing plate and the
lead ball end of the cable. When the parking brake is pulled, it will
move until the "ball" bottoms the spring out against the sleeving and
the cable will bind. That will start the "pull" on the opposite side.
Makes sense, and I agree, I dont want to test the theory again!!;)

Tom


quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK
The one side (without the drum) will move farther than the other side (with the drum), but there is only so much cable movement in the flex cable anyways, so when it moves the full amount (bottoms out)the other side will move.... snip .... Either way, it is not a situation one would want to be in.
Jeff[8D][/b]

Roscomacaw
01-03-2007, 09:56 PM
Jeff, let me assure you that there's not enough travel in the primary cable to make up for the slack that would come to be in the inter-brake cable if one drum was lost.;) You can't trust that the parting drum/shaft assembly wouldn't clean off shoes and the E-brake lever with it!
Pull one rear drum off a Stude and see if you can truly bring pressure to bear on the remaining intact brake assembly. If you can - good - maybe. But once the retainer nails or the clips that anchor the shoes to the backing plate say toodle-oo! - it's gonna be up to luck as to how you end up.:(

All this said, I'm not a big drum-beater as to the impending doom of tapered axles. You can just as easily meet your doom speaking on a cellphone while driving a new Volvo. There's SO many Studes still plying the roads with their original axles and brakes. I'd think that if this was a growing threat, we'd see the Co-operator column with nothing else dominating the Q & A.

[The opinions of this poster do not necessarily reflect the advice or notions of SDC. As such, accepting them is to do so at your own risk]:D

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/906179/2006/12/7/truckonhill3.jpg

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

DEEPNHOCK
01-04-2007, 09:30 AM
I agree that it would not be a good situation to be in.
My comment was that the cable will still pull on the other side even when the one side was at full stroke. I witnessed this while redoing brakes on my Hawk a while back while lubing the cables to keep them free'd up. One was frozen and I pulled that side all down to either fix it or replace it. While under there lubing, wiggling, wire brushing, and scraping, I had my partner applying the parking brake and releasing it (while I pulled on the brake shoe to pull the cable back out).
Finally got it free'd up and working.
Whether or not that would be true after the scenario of having one entire brake torn off is another issue that would probably fall under the caveat "Your results may vary"[:0]
Anyways, I suppose the best way to put it is that this is the 'parking brake', and having to rely on it to stop the moving vehicle after a catastrophic mechanical failure may well be asking too much.
My last brake 'failure' in a (stock) Hawk was a rear steel line failure while backing up in my own driveway. Pulling the parking brake cable did little to slow the Hawk down. Putting it into drive did stop the car on the other side of the road. When I crept back into the driveway, the same process was foolishly tried out in 'D'[:o)].
Same result, but this time the other car in the driveway brovided the braking effort[B)].
Embarassed? Yes. Mad? Yes. Wiser? You bet.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Jeff, let me assure you that there's not enough travel in the primary cable to make up for the slack that would come to be in the inter-brake cable if one drum was lost.;) You can't trust that the parting drum/shaft assembly wouldn't clean off shoes and the E-brake lever with it!
Pull one rear drum off a Stude and see if you can truly bring pressure to bear on the remaining intact brake assembly. If you can - good - maybe. But once the retainer nails or the clips that anchor the shoes to the backing plate say toodle-oo! - it's gonna be up to luck as to how you end up.:(

All this said, I'm not a big drum-beater as to the impending doom of tapered axles. You can just as easily meet your doom speaking on a cellphone while driving a new Volvo. There's SO many Studes still plying the roads with their original axles and brakes. I'd think that if this was a growing threat, we'd see the Co-operator column with nothing else dominating the Q & A.

[The opinions of this poster do not necessarily reflect the advice or notions of SDC. As such, accepting them is to do so at your own risk]:D