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sbca96
12-27-2006, 09:36 PM
EDIT : for picture locations and tread name change

EDIT : Here it is July (month update)....

See the new post at the end for the NEW questions - Tom

Original post [] :
[ Ok, its time to get the Avanti back on the road, the weather this week
hasnt been nice for work in the driveway, and the Avanti is taken hold
of the garage. The first thing on my list is to rebuild the pump. The
shop manual lists "Lubriplate or its equivalent". What the heck is
"Lubriplate"?? Can I just use powersteering fluid?

What is acceptable to use to clean the pump? Carb cleaner? Simple
Green? I dont want to ruin the new seals with residual cleaner.

Tom ]

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

Alan
12-27-2006, 10:23 PM
The lubriplate is a thick white grease like lubricant that is used to keep the little pins from falling out and apart on assembly. I would use brake clean to clean everything up if you are afraid of carb cleaner.

John Kirchhoff
12-28-2006, 01:47 PM
That white grease is what my dad refered to as "calf scours grease". For you non-farmers, scours is diarrhea and when a milk fed calf has scours, that's exactly what it looks like. That's probably more information than some of you folks wanted! Ha!

Transtar60
12-28-2006, 02:30 PM
I first used Lubriplate in the printing industry.
Its still used on our newest press(1998) as well as the one from 1926

Google is your friend.

http://www.lubriplate.com/webstore/detail.aspx?ID=17

3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

N8N
12-28-2006, 03:22 PM
My FLAPS still carries Lubriplate, and whichever you use, carb cleaner or brakleen, if you let the parts dry well before reassembly there will be no residue. (yeah, I know, it's tempting to rush it, but don't.)

I ASSume that any thick assembly lube would be acceptable as well, if you have any on the shelf. As Alan says, I think it's only mentioned so that you can "stick" the parts together while you're reassembling. I didn't use any grease putting the pump together on my '55; I just was very careful to get everything in the right place, and it works fine. I reused my old seals too with the exception of making some new reservoir gaskets (the whole reason I had it apart) and it doesn't leak.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
12-28-2006, 04:46 PM
Well, I bought the rebuild kits, I just have been busy getting the 93
Camaro back together after the hit-and-run. I want to get the Avanti
back on the road by tomorrow night (dreamer), which means rebuild the
pump, ram, valve assembly, and replace the hoses. Possible?

Tom

N8N
12-28-2006, 04:58 PM
Your shopping list on your way home from work this evening:

-flare nut wrenches
-band aids
-hydrogen peroxide
-gauze
-first aid tape
-1 bottle profanity-b-gon(tm)

(it's the valve/hoses that will cause wailing, gnashing of teeth, and blood loss)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
12-28-2006, 05:05 PM
Good idea on the list, I have plenty of profanity at the ready!! I do
need to get some good flare wrenches. The ones I bought from Kragen
are total crap. Craftsmen has always been my friend, why I thought I
would save money on one of the MOST important wrenchs, I dont know![B)]

Tom

ROADRACELARK
12-29-2006, 10:39 AM
Tom,
I can't remember if the shop manual states to remove the starter, but it will be very helpful. Provides much needed working room. Yes the hoses are tough. Take your time, do one at a time for less confusion in routing and check for interference while operating full lock to full lock. A note to help on pump reassemblly... you'll notice the shaft has a SHARP step on the pulley end..after you install the new seal in the front housing, install the shaft from the FRONT side, butt end first. Then install the pulley, temporarily, with bolt and washer. Mount vertical in a bench vice, clamping on the bolt head. Continue with reassembly. This serves two purposes, keeps the front seal from being cut while pushing the sharp edge of the step on the shaft through it snd if you don't install the pulley, the shaft will slip back through the seal. BTDT several times until I discovered this method. Also, be careful not to loose the TINY pin that registers the outer race in the housing. I have mistakenly dropped it and it is a bear to find,[:0] lights, magnet, cuss words.[:0] Everything else is straight forward. We're here to help if you need us.:) OBTW use Dexron ATF, NOT "power steering" fluid.;)

Dan Miller
Atlanta, GA

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

sbca96
12-29-2006, 05:10 PM
Thanks Dan ... I sware this must be the hardest part about working on
a later Stude - the replies make me feel like I am being shipped off
to Iraq to help with the Red Cross!!

Looks like this is being bumped to back burner again (grrr), I might
get back to it this weekend though. Wifes drives window wont roll up
and so I need to swap the window regulator .... AND I came down with
a cold! Happy New Year!

Tom

John Kirchhoff
12-29-2006, 07:51 PM
Dan, talking about the sharp edge and cutting the seal reminded me of what I've done in like situations. If reassembly allows it, I cut a piece of waxed paper, wrap it around the shaft and sharp shoulder several times, slip the seal over it and then remove the paper. Sure makes it easier on the nerves.

ROADRACELARK
12-29-2006, 11:21 PM
John,
I agree. There are several ways to protect the seal from damage, but by doing it as I described, once you bolt the pulley on, the body of the pump can't come off that end of the shaft. I've seen instances where someone tried to replace the seal by just removing the pulley.
Attempting to drive the new seal into the housing while trying to keep from damaging the lip of the seal is near-bout' impossible.[:0],
especially if the pump is still on the car! It's better just to take the time to uodo the 3 mounting bolts and the 2 lines, take it to the work bench, set down with a 'cold one' and the shop manual and have at it;) Have a Happy New Year!:)

Dan Miller
Atlanta, GA


[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

sbca96
12-30-2006, 11:39 PM
I will better understand when I get it apart .. I am not a stranger to
difficult seal replacement. If you guys are interested, check out the
tech article I did on the Impala site - its a "sticky" there.:D;)

http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/forum2005/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30984

Tom

PS: I dont understand why SDC doesnt use stickys, I would have thought
my fuel pump rebuild process would have become one! Here is what a
sticky looks like .. helpful for not losing valuble tech support. Its been
read 7159 times![:I]

http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/forum2005/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=7

DEEPNHOCK
12-31-2006, 06:02 PM
Well? Got it done yet?


quote:Originally posted by sbca96

sbca96
12-31-2006, 08:21 PM
No .. I've been sick.[V]

Tom

ROADRACELARK
01-02-2007, 08:48 PM
Mike,
As I stated in my earlier post, the pump needs to come off of the car and completely disassembled. You drive the old seal out from the back side of the front housing, then press the new seal in from the front side. In the first post i stated that it is easier and safer to push the shaft through the front housing, butt end first. Obviously lube the shaft, and all other internals with ATF as you assemble. Once you have the shaft installed, TEMPORARYLY install the pulley with the bolt. This keeps the sharp edege of the shaft from coming through the seal while you reassemble the remainder of the pump. Again, re-read my first post. Hope this helps.:) Those seals can get pricey after 2 or 3..[:0]

Dan Miller
Atlanta, GA

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

sbca96
05-14-2007, 02:04 AM
OK, those following these threads know that the pump is now rebuilt,
the ram is off the car and clean, but the control valve is still not
cooperating in the least. After I got the starter off, I finally was
able to see the core plug thats been leaking for the last decade. It
came out fairly easy with a screw driver and after a hole was made, a
Studebaker jack/lug nut tire iron. Not a lot of room to get the new
one back in, so I figured once the control valve/pitman arm was out of
the way, things would open up. Problem is, I have a clearance issue.
I can not get either my 3/4 breaker bar, nor my 3/4 rachet onto that
pitman arm bolt - the engine block is in the way. The socket needed
is a 1-1/4, which requires a 3/4 drive. Jacking up the engine doesnt
sound realistic, so I am considering a 1-1/4 box end wrench. What do
you guys use to get that nut off? I dont remember having this problem
with my Hawk, but the engine IS in a different location in relation to
the steering box, so that might play an important role.

Other options are : leave the control valve on the car, fight with the
hoses where they are, and rebuild the valve where it sits. I CAN buy
a brass expanding plug to seal the core plug hole. Thoughts?

Tom

PlainBrownR2
05-14-2007, 03:44 AM
About your control valve:
I had to rebuild the one in my Lark. Whenever I moved the wheel, of course fluid would come dribbling out in the location of the starter. Anyways, I dont know about the Avantis, but the Larks had a similiar problem. No way on earth could you get a wrench, Pittman arm remover, etc, up into that tiny area up by the firewall. I think I had to finally modify the remover by shortening it up quite a bit to at least be able to get it into the tiny area up there. And once I had it off, I had to realign what I think were two points to get it back into place once it was rebuilt.
Once it was rebuilt, it was still losing fluid out of the back of the valve. So, leaving it in place I took apart again, keeping track of the "train" of parts that came out in the correct order. The solution was simple to solving the dribbling problem the second time it came apart. The control valve contains two seals which are cupped or dimpled, albeit very slightly. The cups or dimples must be facing in opposite directions (I think it was away from each other) when the valve is rebuilt. Now the rebuild instructions will not tell you this, and I hear alot of guys still complaining about the leaking control valve after they get the control valve rebuilt. This is usually the problem with the valve, the seals were reinserted in the same direction and its wheezing fluid past the seals.


1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]

Mike
05-14-2007, 07:04 AM
If it's 1 1/4", I'm pretty sure I used the 1/2" drive, 1 1/4", Craftsman socket from my tool box, on the pitman arm nut. It's a standard looking Sears 1/2" drive, 12 point socket, only 1 3/4" deep. It's much less bulky than a 3/4" drive would be. I think I bought it by itself, not as part of a set. I did a quick check of the Sears site and found a 32mm, 1/2" drive, in stock for $8.75:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Hand+Tools%2C+General+Purpose&pid=00945927000&vertical=TOOL&subcat=Sockets&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes .
They probably have 1 1/4", too. I stopped looking after the first 280 of 723 sockets.
Actually, my old pipe wrench would have worked! I assure you, there is enough room, in an Avanti, to remove the pitman arm, with the inexpensive puller from Summit that I described. You don't have to raise the engine, remove the exhaust, or do anything more radical than removing the starter. You can do a better job,rebuilding the control valve and installing the new hoses on it, with much less aggravation, on the work bench.
Mike M.

sbca96
05-14-2007, 12:20 PM
Thanks PlainBrownR2 and Mike. I will check Sears after work tonight.
Just getting VERY irratated that its taking this long. When I finally
get a chance to work on it, it sucks to waste 2 hours getting dirty on
my back and not getting anything done.

Tom

sbca96
05-16-2007, 03:31 AM
Ok, I got the 1/2 inch drive 1-1/4 socket from Sears (my set only went
up to 1-1/8). As was mentioned, it fit beween the engine and the nut
and with a bar on the drive, and a pipe against the tierods to stop
the steering from flexing, I was able to break the nut loose. As with
each step of this rebuild, I hit another snag. The puller that I got
is smaller than the one recommended by Mike, it doesnt fit over that
thick/fat Studebaker pitman arm. So thats as far as I got today.[B)]

Tom

Mike
05-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Auto Zone has a picture of the puller that fits, on their site. It's $13, and normally stocked in their stores. You do need the short bolts, threaded all the way up, too.
Here's part of my older post with the Summit picture and bolt length:
The pitman arm puller I used looks exactly like the one Summit Racing sells for $14.95, WMR-W142 @ :
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=Pitman+Arm+Puller&searchinresults=false&N=+115 .
I replaced the puller's bolt with a short, fine thread hex bolt, reversed, so the head bears against the end of the steering box shaft. I have two bolts in the box with the puller, 1 1/2" & 2" long, threaded all the way up. I'm not sure which worked. The shaft isn't tapered; and I remember the arm came off easily.
Mike M.

sbca96
05-16-2007, 08:28 PM
I will see if they will trade the smaller one (that I got) for the big
one that you refering too.

Tom

sbca96
05-21-2007, 05:13 AM
OK, the local Autozone didnt have it, so I called the one in the town
where I work, and they didnt know if they had it .. long story short,
they DID have it, and now I do. I couldnt find anyone today that had
a 5/8-18 bolt. I decided to see if I could fit it in there, and due
to that leaking core plug, I had extra room you wouldnt normally have.
I cranked down on the bolt, but it didnt let go, so I left it with the
stress on it, and sprayed both sides of the spline with PB blaster. I
hope that it just "pops" off in the next day by itself. If it could
be just that easy huh?

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/PitmanArm_002a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/PitmanArm_005a.jpg

Tom

JDP
05-21-2007, 08:45 AM
I've busted 2 or 3 of the under $20.00 pullers in the attempt. I don't recall ever getting one off with the engine in the car.

JDP/Maryland


63 GT R2
63 Avanti R1
63 Daytona convert
63 Lark 2 door
62 Lark 2 door
60 Lark HT-60Hawk
59 3E truck
58 Starlight
52 & 53 Starliner
51 Commander

John Kirchhoff
05-21-2007, 09:14 AM
When I worked on my power steering, I make my own puller out of 1/4" steel plate. It isn't pretty by any means and daubing Caterpillar yellow paint on it didn't help any...but it did work in the limited space I had. I don't know if they still make a wrench like I used, but I had a 40+ year old Williams 1 1/4" wrench that's shaped very much like the letter "L". It worked perfectly for loosening the nut because it caught the nut vertically from the bottom but the handle stuck out horizontally. And to think it laid in the shop for the last 40 years at least just waiting for the Stude!

Mike
05-21-2007, 01:15 PM
I've used the same puller on a couple of Studes and had no difficulty. Studes, puller, and myself are doing fine.
On my Avanti, I used a short bolt instead of the center screw, with the head against the end of the pitman arm shaft. You can see there is plenty of room that way.
Mike M.

sbca96
05-21-2007, 05:18 PM
In my cause, I found it easier to drill a 1-1/2 hole in the side of
the block ... just kidding. The core plug was leaking pretty good, I
didnt even realize that it was helping me out by removing it until I
decided to TRY it afterall.

Tom

PlainBrownR2
05-22-2007, 02:14 AM
Yeah I think that was my biggest problem with the Lark and the Pittman arm. It was so long ago I couldnt remember the details, but I think I had to shorten the threads on the puller as the full length of the bolt made fitting the remover in the tiny crevice on the firewall near impossible.

sbca96
05-24-2007, 03:53 AM
I figured I just wasnt getting enough leverage with the open end of
the wrench, so I got a grade 8 bolt in the town I work, and modified
it to center on the hole in the shaft. Its a 1-3/4 long bolt & I took
the last 1/2 of thread off, and then ground a point on it, with a bit
of a shoulder, like the bolt included with the puller.

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/PitmanArm_006a.jpg

I greased up the threads and put it on the pitman arm. I used a 15/16
open end wrench, with 3/4 box end wrench slipped onto the open end to
get more leverage. I tighted it down, and used a piece of steel to
hit the side of the pitman arm with a sledge hammer.

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/PitmanArm_007a.jpg

Success! A couple hits, and tightened the puller some more and it got
loose and came off. Finally!! Now to get the ball end free from the
bell crank pivot, and snake the hoses out.

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/PitmanArm_008a.jpg

(I will transfer this into to a Control Valve thread eventually).

Tom

Mike
05-24-2007, 07:37 AM
I think the automatic steam cleaner, (leaking freeze plug), defeated Studes famous anti rust system, (leaking seals); and left the pitman arm rusted to the shaft. My Studes leaked mostly oil. So, I didn't have to use a hammer there.
If you start with a short bolt in the puller, with the head against the end of the shaft, and replace it with a slightly longer one as needed, the puller and bolt take up only as much space as the body of the puller. Can you tell us how long the first bolt would be? I've misplaced the one I used, or used it for something else. What is the distance from the end of the shaft to the inside of the puller, with the arm and puller body in place; and the thickness of the puller where it's tapped ?
I found the reach rod was pretty easy to remove from the bell crank, (lots of oil leaking there!). It's easier to get to than the ram to bellcrank tie rod.
Mike M.

studebaker-R2-4-me
05-24-2007, 11:18 AM
Congratulations Tom! I feel better now that I see other people with nightmares too.

1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-24-2007, 12:07 PM
Misery loves company.;)

Tom


quote:Originally posted by studebaker-R2-4-me

Congratulations Tom! I feel better now that I see other people with nightmares too. 1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone

sbca96
05-24-2007, 12:11 PM
I updated the info - it was a 1-3/4 long 5/8-18 grade 8 bolt I used.

Tom


quote:Originally posted by Mike
Can you tell us how long the first bolt would be?

sbca96
05-27-2007, 09:35 PM
OK ... trying to get the new return line on, I just could NOT get it
to fit past the zerk tower. I tried to bend it a little, and that did
not work either. I got frustrated and got it close, then hit it with
the end of the screwdriver handle - which put a knick in the new metal
bent end.:( These are amazingly soft material.

I decided to unscrew the zerk tower to get the line on, and than put
it back on after ... I wasnt ready for this result :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveZerk_001a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveZerk_002a.jpg

Just how screwed am I? I have a feeling this is VERY bad. Who knew
the tower wasnt threaded in?? Its a freakin 7/16 bolt head!!![B)]

Tom

sbca96
05-29-2007, 03:19 AM
So during the cleaning process the, once rubber, block between the
pitman arm and the control valve snapped in half. Mike informs me it
available through S.I. but I think that might have found it at Napa,
its part number NOS4938 :

http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=NOS&PartNumber=4938&Description=Power+Steering+Pitman+Arm+Shaft+Seal

What do you think?

Also, I took some pictures of the new hoses. You can see the original
hose on the control valve (brownish/gold), and I am holding the new
hose, the bend is completely different:

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose002a.jpg

Also notice that there is NO way the return line will clear the tower
I broke off ... whats going on here??

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose001a.jpg

According to the packaging I got the correct hose ...... BTW, is this
new hose "made in USA" or "made in Canada"[:o)]?

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose003a.jpg

Tom

sbca96
05-29-2007, 05:08 PM
Mike sent me a reply by email .. but anyone else got input??????

Tom

sbca96
05-31-2007, 04:29 AM
Mike keeps replying by Email to me ... but is this just an uncharted
area that no one else has input on?? I hear an echo.... echo .. echo.

If they say that getting a little done each day is GOOD, then I have
certainly perfected doing ONLY a little. I bought a tubing bender and
mounted it into a vice at work. I tried to use the handle on it to
bend the tubing but couldnt get any leverage, by putting the handle in
the vice, I could use my body weight and hold the tube. I made a bend
the opposite direction, and it seems to clear now :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose004a.jpg

I also picked up a new 90 degree threaded zerk, I will take the valve
apart to install a new seal pad on the pitman arm (it broke while I
was cleaning it - hard as a rock) and tap the new zerk into the valve
and go back and remove the protruding threads on the inside.

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveZerk_003a.jpg

Here is the seal block I made and the old one, I measured the shaft on
the pitman arm tonight and it seems to be .615, and made the hole in
my seal pad .500, so I might open it up to .625. The material is some
scrap .500 thick Rubatex closed cell neoprene "bun". Thoughts?

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValve_seal001a.jpg

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

r1lark
05-31-2007, 12:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96
According to the packaging I got the correct hose ...... BTW, is this
new hose "made in USA" or "made in Canada"[:o)]?

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose003a.jpg

Tom


Tom, I noticed the same thing, received some Avanti disc brake cylinder kit that had the same "made in USA" sticker on it, and the boots had "made in Australia" molded into them!!<G> I believe that Prim Auto Parts (who is where a lot of these parts come from, you can tell by the rectangular white computer typed tag) must put that sticker on every item they ship.

Didn't some clothing company get in trouble a few years back because they had US workers sewing "made in America" tags onto Chinese-made clothes?

That pittman arm seal you made looks good. Should work fine, just makes sure that when installed the material compresses some for a good seal. Back when the rebuild kits still contained these seals, I was always amazed at how thick the new seal was versus the old compressed one I took off.

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

sbca96
05-31-2007, 08:25 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I am going to open the hole up in
all 4 test pieces to .620. The material I am using is .500 thick so
it should compress to about .250 at the thinnest point. The other
option I have for material is .875, which seemed too thick. From what
I can tell by looking at the old part, it started off .500 thick, its
a tad under that now, but the material will shrink a little over time.

Tom


quote:Originally posted by r1lark
That pittman arm seal you made looks good. Should work fine, just makes sure that when installed the material compresses some..

John Kirchhoff
06-01-2007, 11:23 AM
Tom, when you started this job, I bet you never thought you'd still be at it nearly 6 months later!

sbca96
06-01-2007, 12:38 PM
Actually John, I did JUST hoses on the '63 Lark Wagonaire we had years
ago and I remember that being pure hell. I knew this was going to be
a huge pain, maybe not 6 months .. but certainly lots of cursing!;)

Tom


quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

Tom, when you started this job, I bet you never thought you'd still be at it nearly 6 months later!

sbca96
06-03-2007, 04:44 AM
OK .. NOW what comes off?? This thing wont come apart!:([:0]

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_007a.jpg

Also .. any tricks on replacing the steering box pitman arm seal?[B)]

Tom

John Kirchhoff
06-04-2007, 12:08 PM
The spool in the control valve (the part with the lines on it) will push out. Use something soft like a piece of wood to push and use a rag on the other end to keep the spool from popping out and bouncing around on the floor. The tolerances are very tight and you don't want to scratch the bore or the spool. Be careful when taking the seals off of the spool because the grooves are square shouldered and you can cut yourself or the seals if you aren't careful. I believe there's two seals on each end of the spool and to keep from cutting the inner seal on the outer seal groove, I wrapped several layers of cellophane (SaranWrap) over the first groove and then slipped the inner seal over the first one. Make note that I am going strictly from memory. Also be sure to make note of which way the seals face and don't get the old ones mixed up with the new ones because they all look the same. Luckily I caught my mistake before I reassembled it.

The portion of the valve connected to the pitman arm comes apart after you unscrew the reach rod. Measure the length, count how many times you unscrew it or have some way to get it the same length when you reassemble it. The little pieces that fit on either side of the ball on the arm are difficult to replace (or at least for me) when reassembling. If they're cocked, the arm won't rotate far enough and you'll end up removing the whole works from the car and doing it over. Yeah, had that happen too.

sbca96
06-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Thanks John, I will try that. I was hoping that I didnt have to take
the reach rod off the assembly. Grrrrr. That would explain why it is
not coming apart then. Since the forum was dead on Sunday I worked
on the core plug. After trying a socket and a small ballpeen hammer,
hitting my fingers a few times, I decided to bring out the big gun =
its a 3 pound sledge. I used a socket that fit fairly snug in the cup,
and an extension to clear the frame. A couple hits with this bad boy
and the core plug decided to play along. Off came the socket & I just
carefully used the end of the 1/2 inch 10 inch long extension, worked
the core plug into the block straight. After I got it just past flush,
I used a long steel square rod to "stake" the opposite sides of the
block to hold the plug. You can see the very slight dimples on either
side. Now let the Permatex harden a little and call it good. If it
leaks .. there is always alum-i-seal.;)

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/CorePlug_001a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/CorePlug_002a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/CorePlug_003a.jpg

Tom

sbca96
06-18-2007, 04:46 AM
Control Valve still doesnt want to come apart, I thought by taking the
reach rod off was going to magically expose some secret compartment and
Gollum might come out and help me with "My Precious".

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_008a.jpg

I made some marks with my dremel on the exposed threads :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_009a.jpg

Unscrewed it :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_010a.jpg

Nothing in there :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_011a.jpg

This thing has flats on it, but it wont budge :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_012a.jpg

Tom

John Kirchhoff
06-18-2007, 12:19 PM
Tom, I never got that piece apart either and yes, I tried using a wrench of the flats also. But, everything worked as it was supposed to when I put it back together, so I don't think I'd worry about it. Oh, using the Dremel to make a mark was smart! And to think my Dremel was there on the wall staring at me while I worked on mine.....

sbca96
06-19-2007, 01:31 AM
Damn!! Well, I need to get that apart, so I can put the new neoprene
square "seal" on the pitman arm. I also need to fix that zerk. Grrr!
I didnt cut very deep with the Dremel as to not cause a stress area, I
just ground down the tips of the threads so I could line them back up.
I HATE counting threads or measuring ball joints, it always seems so
"iffie" whether you measured right the second time, or counted right!

Anyone get this thing apart? What am I missing? I have read both of
the shop manuals and it doesnt make sense.[V]

Tom

John Kirchhoff
06-19-2007, 09:12 AM
Tom, I apologize. I got to thinking and at first I couldn't get it off and was stymied, but I know I did get it apart...I had to have to have been able to get the rest apart. I believe I got it in the vise and used a pipe wrench on that guy. I believe there was a lock pin or the like somewhere that prevented the threaded rod from coming off, but that may have been just the part that threads down into the barrel. It's been a while and I've worked on so much other car, tractor and motorcycle stuff since then it has all run together, which really annoys me. To make matters worse, I was working on the control valve and a Hydrovac at the same time and time has jumbled it all together. The problem is there is a little lock pin on the Hydrovac also...and I can't remember which is which..grrr! I do know that once you unscrew the offending part, then you can get the pitman arm off, those little pain in the butt pieces that are machined flat on one side and curved to fit the ball on the other side and the sliding sleeve that the pitman arm ball fits through. Whatever I did, I do remember that thing was not very cooperative at first.

Mike
06-19-2007, 12:03 PM
I think you are at step 6 of the disassembly instructions from the Avanti manual I sent. The part that holds the pitman arm ball, and that the reach rod screwed into, is called the "actuator assembly". The rod that extended through the valve body is the "spool bolt". Step 6 says pull the spool bolt out of the actuator assembly a little, and you will see the lockpin for the stop screw, that you are having trouble with.
The actuator assembly is often clogged with dirt and half dried grease. You may have to soak the assembly in kerosene, to free it up enough to take it apart.
I'll send the picture from the Avanti parts book. It's clearer than the one in the manual.
Follow the steps in the manual. Avoid "short cuts". You can do a better job cleaning the valve body without the hoses. Mike M.

sbca96
06-19-2007, 04:13 PM
Thanks John and Mike. I know once I figure it out, I will see just
how simple it is, but the pure frustration is getting to me........[V]

Tom

sbca96
06-24-2007, 04:26 AM
OMG was that simple. Kinda like a hand grenade, you just pull the pin
and run away ... well without the running away part. Once the pin is
out the thing on the end it easy to turn :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_018a.jpg

Tom

PackardV8
06-24-2007, 11:40 AM
Greetings, Tom/sbca96,

Thanks for sharing your lessons learned on the PS rebuild. (We have all learned a lot about cars by trial and error, but hand grenades aren't in that category. Pull the pin and run?[xx(][:0])

thnx, jv.


PackardV8

sbca96
06-24-2007, 10:07 PM
Well .. I tried to thread the new zerk into the housing and this thing
must be made of some HARD material. It took the threads right off!

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_021a.jpg


quote:Originally posted by PackardV8
but hand grenades aren't in that category. Pull the pin and run?
thnx, jv.

Oh come on JV, I posted that at 3:30 am - and at the time it was VERY
funny ........... to me.:D[:p]

Tom

PlainBrownR2
06-25-2007, 01:04 AM
Judging by the color of the zerk it looks like the average brass fitting. If that is brass, be careful!! If brass fittings are not threaded correctly they can strip extraordinarily easy. One of those experiences I will never completely learn to do right when flaring and connecting stainless steel lines, lol. I'd be almost tempted to match the size of the brass fitting with the size of the correct tap and basically chase the threads before trying another zerk. Just a quickie measure to clean the threads on the threads on the inside of the control valve.

quote: Oh come on JV, I posted that at 3:30 am - and at the time it was VERY
funny ........... to me.
Oh I get the hand grenade part. Pull the critter apart without remembering them springs or Jesus clips and get a surprise. Might as well add in there after the statement and the subsequent crickets chirping with a voice resembling Krusty the Clown's, "Ohhhh just roll the clips". :D


1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]

sbca96
06-25-2007, 05:00 AM
Thats the problem. The control valve ISNT threaded. It has a boss
for a smooth fitting thats crimped on the inside. God knows how many
ton press they used to do it. I un-did it buy putting a wrench on
what I THOUGHT was a threaded zerk - based on the 7/16 nut shape. It
just snapped off. Now I am left with an untapped hole in some HARD
material. The zerk is not brass, its just coated mild steel. I guess
I will bring it to work and have it brazed on.

Tom


quote:Originally posted by PlainBrownR2

Judging by the color of the zerk it looks like the average brass fitting. If that is brass, be careful .... I'd be almost tempted to match the size of the brass fitting with the size of the correct tap and basically chase the threads before trying another zerk.

John Kirchhoff
06-25-2007, 04:48 PM
I don't know what size hole you ended up with, but they do make grease zerks that are tapered with ridges and you simply drive them into the hole. Most of the oneslike that I've had to deal with are the little guys, but you might check if you need a bigger one.

sbca96
06-25-2007, 05:15 PM
Thats what this one started out as ... tapered with ridges.[B)]

Tom


quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff
...they do make grease zerks that are tapered with ridges and you simply drive them into the hole.

N8N
06-25-2007, 05:46 PM
Why'nt you just tap the hole for a standard Zerk thread? It won't be 100% original, but if anyone notices THAT I think that is an appropriate level of anal-retentiveness at which you can safely tell them to piss off without feeling guilty.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

PlainBrownR2
06-25-2007, 09:18 PM
Indeed N8N with noticing something like that. If somebody notices something like that, they may have wayyyy too much time on their hands, and one disassembled mess on the ground. At this point, I'd be more than tempted to tap for a standard thread, just as long as it isnt causing PS fluid to dribble all over the place(tap something that wasnt supposed to be tapped). Being just an average grease zerk I dont think that is that big of a problem though.


1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]

sbca96
06-26-2007, 04:52 AM
Oh man Nate!! You have me confused with someone else. I am not that
concerned with it being original, I just want it to be running again.
There isnt much material there to tap, thats one problem, the next is
that there is a tube that slides IN the housing, and must clear the
zerk on the inside. That leaves about 1 to 2 threads - not enough. I
thought about welding a Zerk "bung" on there, but since I had the one
in the picture with me, I just had that welded on. I ground off most
of the threads, and he braze/welded it on - DONE!:D :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_022a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_023a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_024a.jpg

Tom


quote:Originally posted by N8N
Why'nt you just tap the hole for a standard Zerk thread? It won't be 100% original....

sbca96
06-27-2007, 03:50 AM
Guess what I did tonight?:D[^]

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_042a.jpg

Tom

Karl
06-27-2007, 06:45 PM
NO...

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

John Kirchhoff
06-27-2007, 09:33 PM
If you did what most guys brag about, good for you! If you drove your Stude, hey that's good too..........

PackardV8
06-28-2007, 02:56 PM
Did it involve Astroglide? [:p]

(on the seals and O-rings, of course!)

jv.

PackardV8

John Kirchhoff
06-28-2007, 05:15 PM
Wide Glide, Super Glide, Astroglide...that sounds like a Harley Davidson motorcycle!

sbca96
06-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Sheeeesh! You guys are bad! See what happens when you leave you all
alone on my thread![:0]

No .. I finally got the Control Valve back together! I need to update
the Control Valve thread. New seals installed, I just used the fluid
that was in the valve already. Everything was pretty clean inside.

Tom

sbca96
07-01-2007, 07:01 PM
Oh for the love of God!!!!

I got the control valve back on the car, I routed the hoses the way
they were before (pretty much) and one of the power ram hoses is not
as long as the other!!!!!

This is the funky long bent one that replaced that quick bend one on
the valve before :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose002a.jpg

I think I will have to remove this and rebend it so its a quicker bend
which will in effect make the hose longer. I think that I would have
had better luck having the hoses made locally, this is REALLY starting
to piss me off now. Makes me long for the manual steering days with
the '60 Hawk.[B)][V]

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
07-01-2007, 08:03 PM
I feel your pain.
Having done more than a few custom deals where ther is no 'OE' hose, it is a joy to find a shop that
can build you up one from either your loose parts, or your scratchings on a note pad.....
Your pic's are a blessing in disguise, for a few years from now you can refer back to them to fix it if you need to...
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by sbca96
<snip>
I think I will have to remove this and rebend it so its a quicker bend
which will in effect make the hose longer. I think that I would have
had better luck having the hoses made locally, this is REALLY starting
to piss me off now. Makes me long for the manual steering days with
the '60 Hawk.[B)][V]

Karl
07-01-2007, 11:04 PM
Tom, Do these help. Looks like you got the hoses routed wrong. To many on one side of the valve.the set I got from SI fit?
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/ControlValveFrameSide.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/Control20Valve2C20Top.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/Control20Valve2C20Frame20Side.jpg
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/twnchgr/Control20Valve2C20Engine20Side.jpg
Just trying to help.:)


63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

sbca96
07-01-2007, 11:09 PM
Thanks Karl .. but that wasnt a current picture .. hang on .. let me
take a couple and post them.

Tom

sbca96
07-02-2007, 02:14 AM
Here they are :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_ControlValve/ControlValve_038a.jpg

On the car :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Hoses/PowerSteeringHoses_new_001a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Hoses/PowerSteeringHoses_new_002a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Hoses/PowerSteeringHoses_new_003a.jpg

Tom

sbca96
07-03-2007, 05:18 PM
No ideas? Mike? Nate? Karl .. does this look right?

Tom

Karl
07-04-2007, 03:32 AM
I will look at my 64 in the morning...something weird here...

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

sbca96
07-05-2007, 03:24 AM
OK .. I spent HOURS today routing and re-routing hoses. First I put
the power ram back on the car to get a reference of where the ends of
the two steering pressure hoses should be. My conclusion is that the
one hose IS too short, I would say about 6 inches too short. With the
hoses clamped down like they were, I can ONLY turn the wheels until it
is straight ahead. At that point the hoses pinch and hit the exhaust.
The "short" hose is fully stretched, and I see no way to route it that
would give me enough room. My solution is to remove the hose from the
car entirely, and bring it to a local shop that makes pressure hoses.
I will have them cut the hose in the center (between the two mounting
clamps) and add a 6 inch length of tubing. I also noticed that the
ends are NOT crimped on correctly, causing the hoses to be twisted to
get them to line up on the car. I am very disappointed with this.

Here are the pictures .. any ray of light here??

Wheels barely able to be pointed straight ahead :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose005a.jpg

Notice a VERY stretched pressure hose at the halfway point??

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose006a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose007a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose008a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose009a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose010a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose011a.jpg

Tom

Mike
07-05-2007, 04:50 AM
The drawing at: http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Diagrams/PS2.JPG shows the hoses to the ram correctly; although the pump hoses shown are the early version.
I mentioned earlier that I have no clamps on the hoses as near to the control valve, as you do. I have two of the oval clamps further forward on the ram hoses. One is as shown in the drawing. The other is hidden in the drawing, near the suspension spring.
There's a third clamp for the pump hoses. It's on the fender apron, near the voltage regulator. It's the only clamp on the pump hoses.
It sounds like you may have gotten a hose that's made wrong. I still have my old ones in a box; if you want me to measure them.
Mike M.

sbca96
07-05-2007, 12:16 PM
Thanks Mike. I didnt throw my old hoses away yet (thank God). I guess
I will take the hose off tonight, and compare it to the old one. I did
not do this since I figured since it was made FOR the car it would be
correct. What do you think about adding the tubing to the mid-point
that is between the two clamps? The hose doesnt have to bend at this
point anyway. I am tempted to have BOTH ram hoses done this way, so
they are steel tubing along the frame, and then rubber on the ends. I
am thinking of I am going through this trouble, I might improve on the
design by eliminating the extra rubber where its not needed. Also I
can have the shop add a flare fitting on one side of the added tubing
so that I can position the hose correctly, and then tighten it down
after to eliminate the forced twist on both hoses. This should have
been a "bolt-on" ........[V]

Tom

sbca96
07-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Called the local hydraulic hose shop, they said that they should be
able to add a steel piece to lengthen the hose for me. They wont be
able to warrenty it - but I understand that. They said that to make
sure that CAN extend it, they will have to CUT it first. So it IS a
possibilty that the hose will end up in the trash (of course thats all
its good for anyway[xx(]:().

Worst case they will just make me a completely new hose.

Tom

sbca96
07-06-2007, 04:05 AM
I am stumped. I took the hose off tonight after work, and pulled the
old one out of the bag. Side by side they are the same length. Seems
that the new hose SHOULD be longer since it now goes on the opposite
side then it did originally. I dont get it. I guess I can wait on
getting it lengthened, and rebend the end to match the old hose, then
I can mount it on the "correct" side, and the longer metal end will
give me a little more length - maybe I wont want it then? I could do
a rebend just to allow me to put it back on the "correct" side. Here
is the picture I took of old vs new :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose012a.jpg

Tom

sbca96
07-07-2007, 04:18 PM
I guess you guys are getting as bored with my power steering woes as
I am. Not getting much feedback from the usual suspects, Nate, Mike,
John, and Karl .... I looked at the "drawing" again, but that shows
the two pump hoses going a completely different direction then what I
am forced to do with the hoses from S.I..

The hose in question is "hooking" on the back of the Control Valve, so
it stops the steering from moving. Has anyone who installed these SI
hoses gone under there car to look for wear on the loop that swings
around the back of the Control Valve?? I am thinking that this must
rub on more than just my car. Whats making matters worse is the crap
exhaust I have. I dont know if its even the stock routing, but that
is contributing to the problem. The hoses contact the exhaust also!!
I think the only two ways to "fix" this is lengthen the hose, OR bend
it to exit on the frame side of the CV, not the engine side??

Tom

sbca96
07-08-2007, 02:44 PM
Alright ... if it doesnt work ... redesign it ...

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_problems/ControlValveHose013a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Hoses/PowerSteeringHoses_new_004a.jpg

Done. The hoses are on, everything clears, rebending the end gave me
about 3 inches of extra length, and bringing it out on the CORRECT side
of the control valve eliminates the problem of catching on the back of
the control valve. I will post the modification pictures on a future
thread. I just want this thing drivable again. Studebaker obviously
did this a certain way originally, why S.I. decided to change it is
beyond me.

Tom

John Kirchhoff
07-09-2007, 02:49 PM
Glad to hear you have things going Tom. Thanks for the photo you posted because I need to rearrange the hoses on mine to keep it from dragging when coming up the driveway. I had my hoses made locally using the old ones for patterns...although that doesn't mean they were right. All I know is if you're still sane after all this, you're a better man than me!

Oh, not getting bored with your thread, just too many other things going on right now. Built my own "auxillary" exhaust system for my motorcycle to make it nice and quiet for this summer's trip, still waiting for the fourth and final braided stainless brake hose....that's been dragging on nearly three months now, been a comedy of errors so to speak although I ain't laughing! But, the old bike's looking and running good and yes, it's a white elephant just like our Studes! Wouldn't have it any other way!

sbca96
07-09-2007, 05:18 PM
Thanks John, and you are welcome. I am trying to share as much of the
processes with my Avanti as I can. Removing the unknown reduces fear.
The hoses work amazingly well, and the newly greased ball ends, and
inside the CV allow the steering to turn freely and solid. So far I
am happy with the results. Once I get the core plugs done, I can put
the power steering pump back on with the proper hardware I received in
my order at S.I. and maybe not have any leaks?[:0]

Tom

PlainBrownR2
07-09-2007, 08:11 PM
Bored? No, of course not. :) I did lose a power steering awhile back though. We did about the same thing. Go to a hydraulic shop with old hose in tow, and form a new hose. Ran into the same problem when we put the hose except the hose kept contacting the exhaust manifold when we tested the swing. We had some excess hose that kept getting up against the manifold. I think the solution not only involved a little bending of the hose, but also taking some extra rubber line, splicing it down the middle lengthwise, and running it around at the spot where it contacted the manifold, and finishing it with a couple wire ties. Its more of an insulative measure than anything. Its not exactly OEM, but we havent had any trouble since with the hose or system and it protects the hose if the hose briefly "bumps up" against the manifold. The hose routing is one of my protests with Studebaker about how they did power steering systems on the later model cars. It was like it was designed in a very minimal space and ran where space was safely available :(



1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
[img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]

sbca96
07-18-2007, 05:24 PM
OK ... so the pump is on, and I think I have driven it enough to bleed
the air out, but it doesnt seem to steer as easy as before. Or should
I say that it steers easy at first, until you get the RPM up, and then
it doesnt as well?? It also seems to "slip" assisting better at the
same rpm than at other times. The good side is that the steering is a
LOT tighter now, the downside is that it doesnt center as well.

Any ideas?

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/PS_Pump/PowerSteeringPump_067a.jpg

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
07-18-2007, 06:12 PM
A service manual will have the procedure to center the steering...
But... If it is anything like most other Stude's the steering box has a 'high spot' that makes the steering wheel steer easily just off center to the right and left. The procedure is to find the exact center of the steering sector (irrespective of the wheel as it may have been removed and replaced off center on the splines). You usually do an exact left to right count and center it. Then center the front wheels exactly. Then set your reach rod so it slips right on without moving either the wheels, or the steering wheel.
What happens, is that if the reach rod adjustment is changed, the steering sector shaft will end up on the 'ramp' when you are going straight. The steering wheel will turn real easy one way (down the ramp) and harder the other way (because it is climbing up the ramp and then going 'over the top')... Power steering may mask the feeling, but from what you describe, I'll bet an Avanti serial number that's what it is... The only thing you changed in any of those adjustments was the reach rod adjustment. All the other changes were just slop removal by upgrading the parts.
Also..
Just driving the thing does not purge the lines. You need to turn the wheel 'lock to lock' about one to two dozen times to cycle everything through.....
Hope the info helps.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by sbca96

OK ... so the pump is on, and I think I have driven it enough to bleed
the air out, but it doesnt seem to steer as easy as before. Or should
I say that it steers easy at first, until you get the RPM up, and then
it doesnt as well?? It also seems to "slip" assisting better at the
same rpm than at other times. The good side is that the steering is a
LOT tighter now, the downside is that it doesnt center as well.
Any ideas?


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
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http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

sbca96
07-18-2007, 08:46 PM
Thanks Jeff, but that wasnt the centering that I was refering too. The
center is tight, which means its on the high point, but it feels as
though its dragging excessively. The reach rod is exactly as it was,
I marked it to make sure. The steering wheel is centered, it just is
VERY tight in center now. There is an adjustment in the control valve
that allows you to take slack out of the CV at the pitman ball joint.
I followed the proceedure, but I think that I MIGHT have the center
link too tight, adding to the problem. This might be a combination of
taking up slack in the centerlink (bell crank) about a year ago, but
it was actually looseness in the CV instead. I guess the best way is
to put a shim or two back into the bellcrank, and see if that loosens
the steering to a comfortable level. I was honestly amazed at how it
made SUCH a difference tightening up the loose steering. It just has
a feeling like its dragging too much at dead center, which makes the
car a little "strange" while going straight. It also could be a bit of
a learning curve, as I USED to just let it wander all over.[B)][:0]

Sorry for the incomplete explanation earlier.

Oh .. and as for the air .. I did the lock to lock BEFORE driving it.;)

Tom

sbca96
07-21-2007, 06:50 PM
OK, now that I have a 110 mile round trip on the car, I have some more
questions. Things are weird.

The power assist seems to be twitchy, but it could be related to this
other problem I noticed at speed on the freeway. Driving along in a
straight line, and hitting a bump it will suddenly "assist" the other
direction I correct. For example, if I hit a bump that causes the car
to shift to the right, when I correct it will very noticeably darts in
that direction - like a sudden boost of power assist. It didnt do this
prior to the rebuild. At first I thought it was a bellcrank related
issue, but I loosened that and it made it worse. Nothing in alignment
related parts were changed, the steering wheel is still centered, the
steering box was untouched. I am thinking the slider in the CV might
be sticking since I tightened it as per the shop manual directions. I
had to have that zerk welded onto the housing, its possible that it
has been distorted, though I checked it for free movement & it seemed
fine. I dont think the pump could cause this, the CV seems to be the
culprit here, but maybe someone else has some ideas?

Tom

r1lark
07-21-2007, 07:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

OK, now that I have a 110 mile round trip on the car, I have some more
questions. Things are weird.

The power assist seems to be twitchy, but it could be related to this
other problem I noticed at speed on the freeway. Driving along in a
straight line, and hitting a bump it will suddenly "assist" the other
direction I correct. For example, if I hit a bump that causes the car
to shift to the right, when I correct it will very noticeably darts in
that direction - like a sudden boost of power assist. It didnt do this
prior to the rebuild. At first I thought it was a bellcrank related
issue, but I loosened that and it made it worse. Nothing in alignment
related parts were changed, the steering wheel is still centered, the
steering box was untouched. I am thinking the slider in the CV might
be sticking since I tightened it as per the shop manual directions. I
had to have that zerk welded onto the housing, its possible that it
has been distorted, though I checked it for free movement & it seemed
fine. I dont think the pump could cause this, the CV seems to be the
culprit here, but maybe someone else has some ideas?

Tom

Tom,

Pull the small aluminum cover off the end of the control valve (held on by two screws) and adjust the self locking nut that is under the cover. Loosen it one or two flats max, replace the cover, and drive the car. See if this helps the 'darting' situation. I think it will. Keep adjusting until the steering responds to your liking.

This nut is, for a lack of a better term, the sensitivity adjustment for the control valve spool. I think you have this adjustment too tight. If the steering is slow to return to center, loosening this nut will also help that.

On my '64 GT, I spent several hours tweaking this adjustment, driving the car, adjusting, etc. At the end, I was only moving the nut a very small amount. The time was well spent tho, and when it was finally adjusted it had no wander, the steering was very responsive, and I was able to easily drive the car with two fingers on the wheel even on rough roads (even on the rough roads around Dearborn when we went to the National Meet there).

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

sbca96
07-21-2007, 11:01 PM
Thanks Paul!! That makes me feel MUCH better for visions of tearing
the whole CV apart again to remove that housing dont sit well with me!
I will try that tomorrow. Good to know there is hope!:D;)[:I]

Tom

sbca96
07-23-2007, 01:44 AM
OH MY GOD!! What a difference!! That was the ticket. I just turned
the nut back 1.5 flats and buttoned it up. I took it for a drive ...
NICE! Feels like a new car! Steering is tight and responsive. I am
very impressed its THIS good since I have yet to do the tierods and
the bellcrank. I am VERY pleased! It so good I dont want to adjust
it anymore to see if it gets better. Its just THAT good!:D

THANK YOU PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I took some video today, and hope to get it transfered to my computer
as soon as I can figure it out. New Canon DV camcorder!:D

Tom

r1lark
07-24-2007, 10:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

OH MY GOD!! What a difference!! That was the ticket. I just turned
the nut back 1.5 flats and buttoned it up. I took it for a drive ...
NICE! Feels like a new car! Steering is tight and responsive. I am
very impressed its THIS good since I have yet to do the tierods and
the bellcrank. I am VERY pleased! It so good I dont want to adjust
it anymore to see if it gets better. Its just THAT good!:D

THANK YOU PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I took some video today, and hope to get it transfered to my computer
as soon as I can figure it out. New Canon DV camcorder!:D

Tom

Tom, glad I was able to help in a small way. More importantly, you are back on the road!!!!

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html