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Avanti alignment with radials

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  • Avanti alignment with radials

    Anyone have alignment specs for early 80's Avantis?
    I have a '64 and on my cars,I usually like a little positive caster-maybe 1-2 degrees and maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 negative camber. The front end is fresh and I am ready for the alignment shop.I will run 215-70-15 radials on aftermarket wheels. Any of ya'll have first hand experiance?
    I promise I will issue a full report!
    Thanks

    '64 R2 back on da road again
    POCI,SCCA,SIMTA
    '64 R2 back on da road again

  • #2
    If you don't get a reply here, try the AOAI forum, they hadve a special forum for the post-Studebaker models. Several owners hang out there and might have the data you need.

    63 Avanti R1 2788
    1914 Stutz Bearcat
    (George Barris replica)

    Washington State
    63 Avanti R1 2788
    1914 Stutz Bearcat
    (George Barris replica)

    Washington State

    Comment


    • #3
      Are you sure you want to run Negative Camber?

      Most cars and certainly Studebaker suspensions go negative with heavier loads and in turns, and are never SET negative, positive is used for minimal tire wear.

      Most alignment shops say you can run a bit less toe-in with Radials, than with bias ply tires.

      Avanti suspensions are all Studebaker up to 1985, so it should be the same as your '64 which is:

      Caster, +1/4" to -1 1/4" with no more than 1/2 degree variance between wheels.

      Camber: 0 to +1 with 1/2 degree more + on drivers' side.

      Toe-in: with left wheel straight ahead, and gear on high spot, adjust right tie rod to 1/16 to 1/8 on Power Steering cars.


      StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA
      StudeRich
      Second Generation Stude Driver,
      Proud '54 Starliner Owner
      SDC Member Since 1967

      Comment


      • #4
        If you jack your front up by the frame the unequal control arm length will pull your wheels in at the top(negative). It goes positive as weight is applied. At some point it will go negative depending on ride and height and springs. Positive caster gives more negative camber at outside wheel in a turn, with negative caster it will go to the positive side. Inside wheel does the opposite. Negative caster with positive camber can lead to a understeer, for which cars in the fifies are noted. Negative camber will put more of the load on the smaller outside wheel bearing which may shorter it's life a bit, but not a big concern. Positive camber puts center line of tire closer to kingpin center line reducing scrub radius. 1/2 degree either side of zero shouldn't make much of a difference.(may increase reaction to pulling brakes,low tire or blowout etc.)
        I run 2 degrees positive caster with 1/2 degree negative caster. No understeer and no abnormal tire wear at 8500 miles
        You may not be able to get caster to positive side without some modification.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks guys, those are interesting thoughts. I am thinking +2 on the Caster & -1/2 on the Camber. I suspect my tires will dry rot before I wear 'em out!

          '64 R2 back on da road again
          POCI,SCCA,SIMTA
          '64 R2 back on da road again

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't know how you're going to get (+2) on the caster without shimming the control arms or bending the kingpins.


            Bob Johnstone


            64 GT Hawk
            55 President State Sedan
            70 Avanti (R3)
            64 GT Hawk (K7)
            1970 Avanti (R3)

            Comment


            • #7
              Bill, have you ever owned and driven a car with center point steering before this Avanti?
              The alignment settings were designed for such a car for a reason, cars with idler arms and left pivot steering do not align anything like center point steering cars, so FYI if you had some pre-conceived Positive Caster, Negative Camber setting in mind that worked on other cars, it is unlikely to work on a Studebaker.
              StudeRich
              Second Generation Stude Driver,
              Proud '54 Starliner Owner
              SDC Member Since 1967

              Comment


              • #8
                Be forewarned the more positive the more steering effort increases. Basically negative caster helps you steer, positive you have to do it yourself. Power steering is a must and it also puts more of a load on box and linkage. I have no problem with the steering set up and it seems to work well with the right box. I'm using Ford pickup box and it drives about as well as you could ask. Reacts, tracks, and returns to center well. How it would do with a different box is anybody's guess. Using a early Saginaw P.S. it reacted too slow even with short steering arms.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Specifically which Ford truck box in which Stude model?

                  thnx, jack vines

                  PackardV8
                  PackardV8

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    More good thoughts Studerich. No, I have never had a car with this center steer deal before. Does this actually work or was it 1950's thinking for 2 ply pizza cutters that they couldn't afford to redesign in the 60's? I am always on a quest for knowlege!

                    '64 R2 back on da road again
                    POCI,SCCA,SIMTA
                    '64 R2 back on da road again

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bill: it is a good sturdy system that works very well, if kept properly lubricated. But because it is very neutral being center mounted, it has the tendency to wander and follow the pavement groves, crowned surfaces etc. UNLESS set up correctly. It relies on some amount of toe-in, Negative Caster and Positive Camber to keep it going straight down the road, and be controlled by the Gearbox and steering wheel, rather than by the wheels themselves!

                      Just ask someone like me who has over fifteen thousand miles tow-barring Studebakers, to his credit, or dis-credit as bams50 would put it! (As you may know, he is a tow dolly addict!)
                      By the way, I now use a tandem axle Auto Transport TRAILER, or my rollback F-350 Truck!




                      StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA
                      StudeRich
                      Second Generation Stude Driver,
                      Proud '54 Starliner Owner
                      SDC Member Since 1967

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I believe the center point steering was a result of the long lower control arms. With the suspension set up as it is it would seem necessary to keep bump steer to a minimum. Negative caster was probably for ease of steering. I suspect use of a high ratio steering box was to keep steering from reacting too quick at speed as well as aid in steering effort.(Is your Stude hard to steer in reverse?) Coupling that same box with positive caster and reaction at speed can be slow as the weight of car is trying to hold car straight.(kingpin inclination probably has a role in this). This is the problem I had with the early Saginaw box.
                        The Ford box is 2 1/4 turn lock to lock and works well with the steering set up. I don't think anyone use negative anymore with quick ratio boxes and rack and pinion. All that being said I agree it's probably best to stick to specs unless you like to fabricate as it may create more problems. If you some how get manage to get it positive side I'd leave it at a 1/2 degree or so.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As long as you have power steering I would put as much positive caster as possible into it. That will most likely be 1/2 to 1 degree. Keep it equal side to side. Camber should be between 0 and 1/2 degree negative. If you want the best handling and you push the car really hard in the corners then you can go for more negative camber. This will be about the best you can do for good handling. If you are most concerned with tire wear then go for 0 to 1/4 degree positive. Wandering is often caused by loose tie rods.

                          The result of body roll while cornering is that the tires actually end up with positive camber relative to the road. Studebaker modified the the R3 suspension to get more negative camber gain with displacement to improve the camber angle relative to the road when cornering.

                          David L
                          David L

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                          • #14
                            quote:Originally posted by 64Avanti

                            The result of body roll while cornering is that the tires actually end up with positive camber relative to the road. Studebaker modified the the R3 suspension [u]to get more negative camber gain with displacement to improve the camber angle relative to the road</u> when cornering.David L
                            David, can you put this in English please?
                            Are you simply saying that the '51-'52 All Steel upper inner "A" arm bushings make the R3 Avanti firmer, so the wheels lean less in turns?
                            StudeRich
                            Second Generation Stude Driver,
                            Proud '54 Starliner Owner
                            SDC Member Since 1967

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Never studied the geometry of a Stude front end, but simply lowering the ride height should increase neg gain in a turn. This would depend on position of control arms in there pivot arcs at static height. As noted earlier if weight is removed from the front it goes negative, as weight is applied it goes positive until upper control pivot points are on a horizontal line. At that point it will go begin to pull top of control arm. The further into the upper part of it's arc the more horizontal travel of upper pin on spring compression. The actual camber would depend on position of lower arm at the same time. Any change in the relationship of pivot points would change it. As to the caster thing, keep in mind from my experience too much positive with a slow box may result in slow steering reaction at speed,. It's only speculation but I strongly suspect that too quick a box(rack and pinion) with negative caster may result in the opposite, Ancy, darty or squirrelly steering at speed.

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