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Transtar60
12-17-2006, 05:27 PM
This guy has a lot of electrical information
http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/onewire-threewire.shtml

I used his three wire kit to install a GM self regulating alternator in my 64 Champ V8.


3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

s1b
12-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Has anyone ever used a GM 1wire alternator? Can some maybe point me to some good info?

Orlando FLA

N8N
12-17-2006, 07:47 PM
Lee DeLaBarre was looking into getting the old JEt City Studebaker brackets remade that will allow a Delco 10SI or 12SI alternator to bolt right on. Might want to see if he has any of those. You will have to pull the generator bracket studs out of your manifold to use it. Alternately you can get a generic chrome adjustable bracket at your FLAPS which looks like it might work with only a little modding. It was pretty much a drop in operation on my '55; I used the Jet City bracket because I think I may want to go with R3 headers someday (they don't use the manifold to mount the alt.) and had to get a belt one size longer or shorter than stock, I don't recall. I just extended the stock ammeter wire (a '55 uses 8 AWG for the ammeter, remember) to the stud on the alt. and then used the Speedway plug/wiring so I didn't have to use a special one wire alternator. One wire (which was originally intended for an idiot light connection - it's yellow) has a diode in it, that goes to coil +ive. The other (red) wire the instructions tell you to hook it to the output stud; I prefer to extend it to the starter solenoid as this is the remote voltage sensing for the regulator. By doing this the alternator will regulate itself to output 14V *at the end of the battery cable* not at the alternator, so if there is any voltage drop in the harness it will be compensated.

The wiring for the stock regulator may be discarded.

Since you are starting with a '56, you will not have to worry about a voltage conversion, but I would strongly recommend replacing the wiring between the alternator and ammeter and also between the ammeter and starter solenoid with heavier gauge wire; I am assuming that you will be using a 63A alternator which has a possibility of overloading the wiring without an actual fault being present. Keep in mind the stock generator was rated at something like 30 or 35 amperes. Also adding high-amp fuses or fusible links to the harness is a prudent measure.

good luck

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Transtar60
12-18-2006, 11:54 AM
N8 I believe those alternator mounts are for V8 engines.
I would assume a 56 Champion unless stated otherwise has a 6 cylinder champ engine. Good news there is 63-64 OHV six alternator mounts are part of the left motor bracket and should work with the flathead six.
Check with vendors in Turning Wheels or www.studebakervendors.com

3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

N8N
12-18-2006, 01:23 PM
um... yeah, you are right. brain fart there.

Come to think of it, did a '56 Champion have an ammeter or an idiot light?

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Transtar60
12-18-2006, 07:27 PM
Not sure.

3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

Dick Steinkamp
12-18-2006, 07:40 PM
OK, call me completely Old Skool, but I don't get it. Keep in mind I'm far from a purist and presently own 2 (heavily) modified Studes and have owned and admired lots of others.

What is the problem with a generator system on a fairly stock Studebaker? If the system isn't working or is working poorly, I would think the easiest, cheapest and best fix would be to repair the generator and/or regulator. I could certainly understand the need for an alternator if you have a booming sound system or other major current draws, but for a fairly stock Studebaker (of any vintage), the generator system puts out plenty of power, is dependable, simple, easy to trouble shoot and fix.

What am I missing?



http://static.flickr.com/132/322649409_9f34cfd542_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

N8N
12-18-2006, 09:39 PM
One advantage to an alternator - higher output at low RPM. If you spend lots of time with the lights and heater on you could still run down your battery. In my case I had a Stude with a Flightomatic already installed and a Delco alternator already mounted to the engine, so it was easier to simply proceed with the conversion in any case.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

mbstude
12-18-2006, 09:54 PM
My '59 still has the generator on it. The higher the engine is revved the brighter the headlights shine. :D It's been a trouble free setup for the 2000 or so miles I've put on it. But, the only thing I have is the lights, a heater, and overdrive. No radio. (Well, not yet...)

My Daytona, however, has a Chrysler alternator on it, as quite a few of our Studes around here do. :) It works pretty well.

___________________________________________

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, Georgia
'59 Scotsman PU
'63 Daytona HT

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j209/mbstude/avatar_river.jpg

http://mbstudebaker.blogspot.com/
http://thestudillac.blogspot.com/

fifthave
12-20-2006, 11:43 AM
A two wire alternator works better than a 1-wire because of the idle speed of you Stude. One wire alternators are designed to begin charging about 1200 rpms, the idle speed of a modern V8. By contrast a two wire alternator will begin charging as soon as the engine is running regardless of the idle speed which makes it a better choice because our Stude idle speeds are not 1200 rpms. A two wire is what came standard on all GM cars for example from the early 70's on. Those GM alternators also had the voltage regulator built inside the alternator, another very good deal....

Alternators do provide a strong output at idle and low engine rpms where as a generator does not. That makes for brighter headlights and also keeps the battery fully charged which makes for easier starting.

I have the brackets alternator etc if you need it. The main thing is to get it right the first time.
Thanks Randy

Dick Steinkamp
12-20-2006, 12:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by fifthave

A two wire alternator works better than a 1-wire because of the idle speed of you Stude. One wire alternators are designed to begin charging about 1200 rpms, the idle speed of a modern V8. By contrast a two wire alternator will begin charging as soon as the engine is running regardless of the idle speed which makes it a better choice because our Stude idle speeds are not 1200 rpms.


Partially true. First of all, I know of no 2 wire alternators. There are one wire and three wire alternators. The one wire is just like a three wire EXCEPT the one wire has a self energizing voltage regulator (the 3 wire "excites" from battery voltage). This means the one wire has to "see" about 1200 RPM ONCE after start up in order to begin charging. A "blip" of the throttle generally accomplishes this and the one wire begins charging and will continue to charge at ANY engine idle speed.

Also, I don't believe any production car ever used a one wire alternator. It was "invented" for street rods solely to clean up the engine compartment by reducing the amount of wiring.

Lastly, I don't know of any production car (V8 or not) that idles at 1200 RPM. Cars still idle at 500-700 RPM...there are probably some exceptions on the low and high side, however.

In direct contrast to my earlier post, I do have a one wire alternator in my Chevy powered '54. It has worked flawlessly for the past 6 years and 30,000 miles. The car idles about 700 RPM and the alternator charges fine at idle. The three wire set up is better (see TransStar's link). I did the one wire SOLELY to have a cleaner engine compartment.

http://static.flickr.com/37/76415896_71d6bd00d2.jpg

I would still suggest sticking with the stock generator system on a fairly stock Studebaker. I'm not sure you'd notice the difference between a generator and an alternator in "healthy" systems under normal driving conditions with stock or near stock electrical loads.



http://static.flickr.com/140/326548308_6bc94ec0f3_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

Dick Steinkamp
12-20-2006, 04:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by CHAMP

That one wire really cleaned that engine up nice Dick!:D


Yep...made it a lot smaller....and orange too :D



http://static.flickr.com/140/326548308_6bc94ec0f3_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

CHAMP
12-20-2006, 05:00 PM
That one wire really cleaned that engine up nice Dick!:D

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

Transtar60
12-20-2006, 07:14 PM
Actually according to MAD electrics history/explanation, 1 wire alternators were originally adapted for industrial/agricultural uses.
IE irrigation pumps, forklifts, and tractors which have/had few or no accessories. I put the have/had in there because some modern tractors have more electronic crap than a Cadillac Escalade.


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by fifthave

A two wire alternator works better than a 1-wire because of the idle speed of you Stude. One wire alternators are designed to begin charging about 1200 rpms, the idle speed of a modern V8. By contrast a two wire alternator will begin charging as soon as the engine is running regardless of the idle speed which makes it a better choice because our Stude idle speeds are not 1200 rpms.


Partially true. First of all, I know of no 2 wire alternators. There are one wire and three wire alternators. The one wire is just like a three wire EXCEPT the one wire has a self energizing voltage regulator (the 3 wire "excites" from battery voltage). This means the one wire has to "see" about 1200 RPM ONCE after start up in order to begin charging. A "blip" of the throttle generally accomplishes this and the one wire begins charging and will continue to charge at ANY engine idle speed.

Also, I don't believe any production car ever used a one wire alternator. It was "invented" for street rods solely to clean up the engine compartment by reducing the amount of wiring.

Lastly, I don't know of any production car (V8 or not) that idles at 1200 RPM. Cars still idle at 500-700 RPM...there are probably some exceptions on the low and high side, however.

In direct contrast to my earlier post, I do have a one wire alternator in my Chevy powered '54. It has worked flawlessly for the past 6 years and 30,000 miles. The car idles about 700 RPM and the alternator charges fine at idle. The three wire set up is better (see TransStar's link). I did the one wire SOLELY to have a cleaner engine compartment.

http://static.flickr.com/37/76415896_71d6bd00d2.jpg

I would still suggest sticking with the stock generator system on a fairly stock Studebaker. I'm not sure you'd notice the difference between a generator and an alternator in "healthy" systems under normal driving conditions with stock or near stock electrical loads.



http://static.flickr.com/140/326548308_6bc94ec0f3_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA
[8D]:D:D:D:D:D:D:)

3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28
4E2
59 Lark
etc

John Kirchhoff
12-20-2006, 07:32 PM
Dick, if a one wire alternator cleaned up the engine compartment that much, where do I install one to clean up the outside of my car? It needs one really bad!
P.S. Magnificant engine compartment!

studeclunker
12-20-2006, 07:33 PM
I had a '71 Caddie with a two-wire alternator. There is a plug that the ground and field wires go into. One of the wires bridges back into the hot wire, the other is the #2 wire. This is the standard setup that I've seen on Caddies (or at least those I've owned). All of my other GMs have had three wire setups.

I'm currently using the 100amp Caddie alternator on my Champ. I'm completely flummoxed as to where the second wire goes though. Here's a picture:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/HPIM0236.jpg

The mechanic I was going to here for a while rewired the regulator for a one-wire a couple of years ago. The system works fine. Here's what it looks like:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/HPIM0237.jpg


I put the alternator in the Champ as I intend to tow with it. Just as soon as I replace Frankentrailer. This little Champ just isn't up to that kind of weight.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpghttp://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/red54wagon-1.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Dick Steinkamp
12-20-2006, 10:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by Transtar60


Actually according to MAD electrics history/explanation, 1 wire alternators were originally adapted for industrial/agricultural uses.
IE irrigation pumps, forklifts, and tractors which have/had few or no accessories.


Hey, those forklifts have pretty sanitary engine compartments too [:o)]



http://static.flickr.com/140/326548308_6bc94ec0f3_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

Dick Steinkamp
12-20-2006, 10:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

Dick, if a one wire alternator cleaned up the engine compartment that much, where do I install one to clean up the outside of my car? It needs one really bad!
P.S. Magnificant engine compartment!


Thanks, John [:I].

I'd go with the one wire tail light system to clean up the outside of the car [:o)]



http://static.flickr.com/140/326548308_6bc94ec0f3_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

fifthave
12-21-2006, 11:47 AM
quote:Originally posted by fifthave

Poor s1B...he ask a simple question and now he is no doubt more confused than ever. Ok A 1-wire alternator was introduced in the mid to late 70's originally for race car applications that powered mostly ignition and battery. Most race cars do have a higher than normal idle speed in the 1200-1500 range. The 1-wire alternators were a simple solution a way to keep the battery charged so they did not have to put the batteries on a charger between races. From there they drifted over and got used on some ag applications and a few industrial applications which had little or no accessories, mainly battery and ignition. That worked ok because most ag and industrial applications spend their time at working rpms, combines, field cutters, swathers irrigation engines and the like. I have installed my share of 1-wire alternators on these applications with good success because these engines spend most of there time at the higher working rpms..

The standard GM Alternators of the 70's are often referred to as 2-wire because of the square plug that plugs into the top of the alternator. Technically there is three wires but the output wire that attaches to the BATT post on the back of the alternator is a given and both types of alternators have them.

Now for the difference between the two....the one wire stores electrical current in the rotor from the last time it was ran. When the engine is started and the engine rpms rise to between 900-1200 rpms depending on the regulator used, the stored current is released to the fields and the alternator begins to charge.

By contrast a "two-wire" alternator used a wire called an "exciter wire" which receives battery current via the ignition switch, which is used to excite the fields inside of the alternator to make it begin charging. So the advantage here for antique vehicle applications is the battery current from the ignition switch will excite the fields as soon as the ignition key is turned on so you will have alternator output immediately, regardless of engine idle speed.

With some 1-wire antique vehicle applications you may have to rev up the engine to make the alternator rpms come up high enough to engage the alternator. You can help that by running a smaller diameter pulley and a few other tricks. You have no doubt seen a few applications where the alternator did not start to charge until the engine rpms came up, Now you know how that works.

When I do an alternator conversion I always consider the application and how it is gong to be used. We typically do not get in our antique cars and head out on a 300 mile trip every time. We do parades, short trips to the store, a cruise on saturday night etc. You need an alternator that will provide enough current at idle and low rpms to keep the battery fully charged and the lights bright during the slow times. That is why I wind my own stators for my alternators, to change the output curve of the alternator to better match the antique vehicle applications. You can read more on my web page www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com Mine is not the only way but after 20 years of hands on experience I have learned a few ways to make things work better, be more reliable and easier to install.

There is no black and white answer, as long as you know how each type of alternator works and what type of output you can expect at what rpms then you can match the alternator to your application based on the facts. After all it is your car so you can put any o'l type of alternator on that you want too.....

Thanks and Merry Christmas to all.....Randy

John Kirchhoff
12-21-2006, 12:50 PM
Studeclunker, that extra wire that comes from the "R" connection taps into the ac voltage before it goes through the regulator and diodes and will run 50-60 volts AC. I'm not sure of the reason for it either. Alternator driven tachometers use the ac voltage, but an alternator like yours would have an additional connection for the tach that does the same thing. The old externally regulated Delcos are the same and it isn't necessary to use that R connection either.

studeclunker
12-21-2006, 06:43 PM
So, John, does that mean I can remove the plug and red wire completely? or should I just cap off the white?

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpghttp://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/red54wagon-1.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

papasstudebaker
12-27-2006, 11:00 PM
use one wire Delco alternator - they make them in 12 volt negative ground - make in 6 volt negative ground and 6 volt positive ground - they cost around $95

Vern Ediger

studeclunker
12-28-2006, 12:23 AM
One more thing about the one-wires. After starting your motor, you need to rev the engine a time or two. This is because the alternator won't start charging till the RPMs reach a certain point. Then it will charge even on a very slow idle.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

N8N
12-28-2006, 11:02 AM
re: the idle speed issue - a guy here at work has a newish Mach 1 (older body style, not the latest one) and based on the exhaust note, it does sound like it idles significantly higher than my '55. I would guess around 1000 RPM or so; I will have to ask him now just to assuage my curiosity.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

John Kirchhoff
12-28-2006, 02:27 PM
I found a great website the other day and I've been in hog heaven ever since.
delcoremy.com/LiteratureDownload/Documents/06SpecGuide.pdf

It gives the performance curves for different alternator models, sizing the pulley so you get adequate performance at idle without over reving it at high speeds, starter performance, sizing cables, batteries and so on.

What I found really interesting is that the 63 amp model 10SI produces more amperage than does the 72 amp 10SI at alternator shaft speeds of less than 5000 rpm. Depending upon crankshaft and alternator pully size, this comes to approximately 1800-2000 engine rpm. At a fast idle, the 63 amp would produce 7-8 more amps than would the 72 amp model. That's something I never would have expected. I printed a bunch of it off, so I'm going to have some great reading material in the bathroom for a while.

Dick Steinkamp
12-28-2006, 02:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff
I printed a bunch of it off, so I'm going to have some great reading material in the bathroom for a while.


[|)]




:D



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/334764891_cb023f0fb1_m.jpg
Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

John Kirchhoff
12-28-2006, 11:26 PM
Speaking of reading material, my ex-wife may have been cheating on me but at least I know my 11 year old daughter is mine. How so? She keeps a German-English dictionary on the cabinet next to the toilet. Ain't no denying she's my girl! Ha!

studeclunker
12-29-2006, 01:07 AM
John, you scare me.

I dug aroung on the MAD enterprises website and found that they have a wiring harness for my alternator.:D Happy, happy! So I just might get it. After I get a @#@!!! starter.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/studebaby/54wagonblue-2.jpg
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

John Kirchhoff
12-29-2006, 09:47 AM
Studeclunker, what's up with your starter? Sick, DOA or MIA? They aren't really that complicated to work on. If they're just slow, often times all that's necessary is to grease the bushings. If extremely weak, check the ground wire connections between the body, engine and battery. Stupid me, after spending much time scratching my head, nose and every other offensive part of my body, I woke up in the middle of the night thinking of the ground. Sure enough, that's all it was. Talk about feeling dumb afterwards!