Old wheel failure with radials?

[rockne10]

Does anyone have a photo or other information about old wheels failing when used with modern radials?
Assuming we are not dealing with rusted pieces of crap that shouldn't be used with any tire,
Do they come apart between the hub and rim? Around the bead?
Is the flexibility of the wheel compromised by sandblasting, making them more brittle?

Studebaker wheels appear to be peened in eight spots between the hub and the rim; not welded. I'm actually surprised they hold air without tubes.

At any rate, I've heard talk of these failures but have not experienced it (don't want to) and don't personally know anyone else who has.
With the absence of a modern replacement, I have stitched some reinforceing welds to my 56-year-old wheels.

[mausersmth]

Inspect your wheels for cracks. If you find no cracking then measure the rim inside, where the tire rests.
4 1/2 inch rims can take about a 195/75R15 max, 5 inch a 205/75R15.
A radial doesn't stress the rim in the same manner as a bias ply does, but as long as you don't use too wide a tire and they don't already show damage, you should be ok.[8D]

Charles Eck
Essex, MD

'57 Commander 4 door sedan
'66 Ford F-250
'66 Ford F-100
'53 John Deere 50
'41 John Deere H All-Fuel
'41 John Deere B All-Fuel

Studebakers were made to drive! (Besides, they don't get lost as easy in the Wal-Mart parking lot!)

[monomaniac]

On a 56 President that I was driving daily I had a failure. I was on a freeway in Washington when the front end started to vibrate.
I pulled over and checked my nearly new 205/75 X 15 radials.
The front passenger wheel was attached by only 3 studs. The other 2 had broken the metal around them away from the wheel and were clanging inside the hubcap. The piece of metal broken out of the wheel center was about 2 1/2 inches by 3 1/2 inches (approximately).
I attributed the failure to:
1. radials flexing in a different direction than the wheels were originally designed for (bias ply)
2. likely more sideways force applied to the wheels (and tires) than was expected by the original engineers.
I now buy NEW wheels for daily drivers, especially if I plan to use tires bigger than 195/75 X 15.

[doug]

My dad was a Gates Tire Dealer in late '60's and several wheels failed when radials were put on cars not formerly equipped with radial tires. they seperated or split where the tire bead seals.

I have used radials on all my Studebakers for over 25 years and have never had a problem. No problems except 8-9 year old radials will fail big time. One exploded while sitting at the curb, 2 hours after driving. I replace any steel belted radial tires after 6-7 years.

[gordr]

quote:Originally posted by rockne10

Does anyone have a photo or other information about old wheels failing when used with modern radials?
Assuming we are not dealing with rusted pieces of crap that shouldn't be used with any tire,
Do they come apart between the hub and rim? Around the bead?
Is the flexibility of the wheel compromised by sandblasting, making them more brittle?

Studebaker wheels appear to be peened in eight spots between the hub and the rim; not welded. I'm actually surprised they hold air without tubes.

At any rate, I've heard talk of these failures but have not experienced it (don't want to) and don't personally know anyone else who has.
With the absence of a modern replacement, I have stitched some reinforceing welds to my 56-year-old wheels.

Check about half-way down the page on this link: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...rms=64,Daytona It should take you to a picture of a Stude wheel with crack just starting. I have had worse, like Monomaniac describes. Scary stuff, and I agree with using new rims 100%, unless it's with repro bias tires on factory rims for a gently-driven "show-only" car.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[4961Studebaker]

This topic always gets my intrest when it comes up, maybe it's because my tires were considered offenders,

Without getting into the debate of weather or not its safe I went out today and cut a cross section of the old tire I had.

Now mind you I couldn't break the bead, these tires had been on there so long a sawzall was used on the sidewalls and then angle grinded the steel inner cord as I pryed a screw driver against the cord and rim.

These are General brand tires from say 1989 205 75 15 radials, never came off, and no cracks others have mentioned ever on these wheels, and I believe I drove it regularly for 11,000 miles 61 lark sedan.

Fell free anyone to save photo's for their archives.

Bead still secured to each side (had to sawz all tire off

cross section after angle die grinder/cutter treatment.


ChopStu

[mausersmth]

The rims that Studebaker used tend to flex, which can lead to cracking. I would check ANY original wheel that will be used, no matter WHAT tire is used! [:0] Ask a local auto machine shop how to test your wheels.
For a daily driver, new rims are best.

Charles Eck
Essex, MD

'57 Commander 4 door sedan
'66 Ford F-250
'66 Ford F-100
'53 John Deere 50
'41 John Deere H All-Fuel
'41 John Deere B All-Fuel

Studebakers were made to drive! (Besides, they don't get lost as easy in the Wal-Mart parking lot!)

[studegary]

I have seen rims split at the bead lock area and I have seen wheels that had cracks in the bolt hole area.

Age of tires is another thing that was mentioned above. New tires last for a lot of miles. Cars that receive little use (a few thousand miles per year), end up with tires that display a lot of tread, but are not safe. Besides on collector cars, I have replaced tires with a lot of tread left on modern cars, just because of the age of the tires. This didn't seem to be a problem with tires years ago, but is now.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

[Guest]

Funny thing....the 57 Ford site I visit has had this very same discussion...radials vs biased...rivited vs welded....all the "experts could recite stories but could provide no reference material to back the story. Had many "I had this experiance" stories as well.

I have never had a rim fail, been putting radials on "old" rims for years with great results over many miles. My 36 street rod has over 135K miles on the old 60s rims that are on it and I run hard. I build them to drive and find good looking stock rims (which there are plenty of) and use them after a thorough check.

Not too sure this isn't an old wifes tale.....

Bill, Many Fords and one great Stude!

[mausersmth]

quote:Originally posted by 4-speed wagonaire

Funny thing....the 57 Ford site I visit has had this very same discussion...radials vs biased...rivited vs welded....all the "experts could recite stories but could provide no reference material to back the story. Had many "I had this experiance" stories as well.

I have never had a rim fail, been putting radials on "old" rims for years with great results over many miles. My 36 street rod has over 135K miles on the old 60s rims that are on it and I run hard. I build them to drive and find good looking stock rims (which there are plenty of) and use them after a thorough check.

Not too sure this isn't an old wifes tale.....

Bill, Many Fords and one great Stude!

Just like in an airplane, small cracks will show before the part fails. Do a good inspection and don't use too wide a tire (And don't run too old a tire!) and you'll be fine!

Don't want to check for cracks, buy new.

Find a crack in the rim, you can put new rims on. Crack in the center, steel scrap is selling for 4 cents a pound.

Charles Eck
Essex, MD

'57 Commander 4 door sedan
'66 Ford F-250
'66 Ford F-100
'53 John Deere 50
'41 John Deere H All-Fuel
'41 John Deere B All-Fuel

Studebakers were made to drive! (Besides, they don't get lost as easy in the Wal-Mart parking lot!)

[PackardV8]

Driving with new oversize radials on Stude OEM rims is akin to cheating on yer wife. Just because you got away with it once or twice without getting caught doesn't mean it won't be catastrophic when you inevitably do get caught.

Here in the NW, steel scrap is down to a penny a pound. Save the Stude rims for the serious show car restorer who will need them someday soon.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

[starliner62]

Four cents a pound. Ain't that a shame[V]

quote:Originally posted by mausersmth

quote:Originally posted by 4-speed wagonaire

Funny thing....the 57 Ford site I visit has had this very same discussion...radials vs biased...rivited vs welded....all the "experts could recite stories but could provide no reference material to back the story. Had many "I had this experiance" stories as well.

I have never had a rim fail, been putting radials on "old" rims for years with great results over many miles. My 36 street rod has over 135K miles on the old 60s rims that are on it and I run hard. I build them to drive and find good looking stock rims (which there are plenty of) and use them after a thorough check.

Not too sure this isn't an old wifes tale.....

Bill, Many Fords and one great Stude!

Just like in an airplane, small cracks will show before the part fails. Do a good inspection and don't use too wide a tire (And don't run too old a tire!) and you'll be fine!

Don't want to check for cracks, buy new.

Find a crack in the rim, you can put new rims on. Crack in the center, steel scrap is selling for 4 cents a pound.

Charles Eck
Essex, MD

'57 Commander 4 door sedan
'66 Ford F-250
'66 Ford F-100
'53 John Deere 50
'41 John Deere H All-Fuel
'41 John Deere B All-Fuel

Studebakers were made to drive! (Besides, they don't get lost as easy in the Wal-Mart parking lot!)

Jamie McLeod
Hope Mills, NC

[studegary]

Just because we don't have pictures of things, doesn't mean that they don't exist. In my hands and in my memory, I have had rims that were split open at the bead seal area. Keep in mind that in the days before digital photography, pictures were not taken of so much stuff. Heck, I don't even have pictures of many of the cars that I have owned, some for as long as nine years.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer