Bought the wrong cars

[41 Frank]

I found this in the editorial page of our local newspaper today and found it to be an interesting observation. (Studebaker content included).

Present day Americans who defend buying foreign cars and cite a quality gap barely understand how Americans hurt U.S. automakers in the mid-20th century.
Americans had seven independent U.S. automakers to buy from to keep the Big Three honest.They were Packard Motor Car Co.,Hudson Motor Car Co,. Nash Motors, Studebaker Corp., Kaiser-Frazer Corp., Willys-Overland Motors and Crosley Automobile Co.
Crosley had the first subcompact. Willys had the first Jeeps and suburban utility vehicles. Kaiser-Frazer, Studebaker and Nash all had four and six cylinder cars that got 35 miles per gallon.
A Packard was a fine luxery car, and Hudson offered a high performance sports model. In the 1950's Studebaker was far ahead in design with its President, Golden Hawk and Avanti models.
Any of these three were equivalent to the Mustang, which Ford Motor Co. brought out in 1964. So, Studebaker was roughtly 10 years ahead of the Big Three.
If Americans had bought more cars from these independent U.S. automakers, we would have kept more jobs and money in America. How can anybody not see the stupidity of subsidising a foreign industry?

A citizen of Omaha.

I do see some holes in his thesis, namely the Big Three were having a price war in that time period and a lot of buyers were very price conscious then and so bought from them for that reason. We all know that higher production equals lower prices, that and the fact that labor costs at Studebaker were higher during that period.
(I did not write the article).

Frank van Doorn
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1963 Daytona Conv
1941 Champion R-2 Rod

[Roscomacaw]

A bit fanciful with his recollection of available powerplants and miles per gallon too. Only Nash would've offered a 4-cyl during the time period he's lamenting about, and at that, it was an Austin 4 in the Metropolitan. 35MPG? Not in regualr driving!

His contention that the little guys kept the BIG 3 honest doesn't wash either. Build quality was crappy all around, and the last thing the Big 3 worried about was whether or not they "looked good" by little guy standards.

Even though Studebaker kicked butt on the Mobilgas Economy Runs, it didn't make a consequential difference. The Scotsman experiment proved (to a degree) that having the cheapest viable ride would draw some folks. And the Lark made a point about niche markets - which the BIG 3 addressed in 1960.

A good point to speculate about is WHAT IF Toyota had been able to acquire Studebaker and apply their standards and quality to the brand? The BIG 3 may STILL not have taken heed (they didn't when the Japs started to get a toe-hold anyways)

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

[jjones]

I am not an economist, and I don't know all the circumstances that caused the demise of a number of car manufactureres in the 1950s-60s. I do know that a number of southern states are subsidizing foreign car and other manufacturers in an attempt to revitilize a dying economy. It will work for a while but overall, the American economy is shifting towards information and technology, much as it shifted from agriculture to industry 100 years ago.

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product. I drive a Ford truck for work, and have had good luck with them, but I drive a Studebaker for everything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have as much of a problem with subsidizing foreign car manufacturers that build an excellent product as I do bailing out the big three when they have had their head up their arse for too long.


Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona
1947 M-5

[arkiejazz]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

A bit fanciful with his recollection of available powerplants and miles per gallon too. Only Nash would've offered a 4-cyl during the time period he's lamenting about, and at that, it was an Austin 4 in the Metropolitan. 35MPG? Not in regualr driving!

His contention that the little guys kept the BIG 3 honest doesn't wash either. Build quality was crappy all around, and the last thing the Big 3 worried about was whether or not they "looked good" by little guy standards.

Even though Studebaker kicked butt on the Mobilgas Economy Runs, it didn't make a consequential difference. The Scotsman experiment proved (to a degree) that having the cheapest viable ride would draw some folks. And the Lark made a point about niche markets - which the BIG 3 addressed in 1960.

A good point to speculate about is WHAT IF Toyota had been able to acquire Studebaker and apply their standards and quality to the brand? The BIG 3 may STILL not have taken heed (they didn't when the Japs started to get a toe-hold anyways)

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

[)]Generalizations are almost always dangerous. And while I normally agree with Mr.Biggs on most things, I have to take exception to the "build quality was crappy all around" remark. I have no direct experince with any car of the period save Hudson. I own Hudson cars from 1933 to 1954. I can testify that build quality on all of these automobiles is of the highest quality. o)]

steve blake...roaming the Texas Panhandle in my trusty Champ pickup

http://tinyurl.com/kr3gt

[bridgegaurd]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

A bit fanciful with his recollection of available powerplants and miles per gallon too. Only Nash would've offered a 4-cyl during the time period he's lamenting about, and at that, it was an Austin 4 in the Metropolitan. 35MPG? Not in regualr driving!


A good point to speculate about is WHAT IF Toyota had been able to acquire Studebaker and apply their standards and quality to the brand?

Hmm Willys four cylinder! I thought it existed, it certainly did in the toyota BJ (jeep copy)

Quality at Toyota in 1964 how many of these pigs are still around.

Mid century Toyota buying Studebaker seems to me that Toyota wanted Studebaker to sell thier junk.

Although it was at Toyota that the rip off of the Ford improvemnt process program became successfull (now known as Six Sigma or Lean Kaizen) it took endless years to get it right. And it took a stupid decision by GM/Opal to get an engine that wasn't slobbering oil like a drunk bay on valvoline.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Museum/data_e/a03_10_1.html

Hey how about them hondas.

Who's fault is it about the big 3, why those who let them get away with it. Build it and they shall come, and they did.

[rodnutrandy]

My thought is what good will it do to hand the big three cash? If we don't have the money to buy a$40,000 truck or luxury car , then it doesn't matter how many they build. I e-mailed my reps. with 2 thoughts, 1. Give all the citizens a $20,000 voucher towards a new car or truck( we are paying for the bailout, so why shouldn't we profit from it)that would sell more vehicles than a bailout. 2. Do NOT send out vouchers until all jobs are brought back in the USA. I have seen slews of plants shut down , Why should we bail out the big 3 to build in other countries, let the other countries bail them out.

Randy Wilkin
1946 M5 Streetrod
Hillsboro,Ohio 45133

[leyrret]

American brands or foreign brands all have their problems. For example here are some owner remarks about the reliable Toyota: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...ta_engine.html and Honda: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/honda.html

[Bill Pressler]

quote:Originally posted by jjones

I am not an economist, and I don't know all the circumstances that caused the demise of a number of car manufactureres in the 1950s-60s. I do know that a number of southern states are subsidizing foreign car and other manufacturers in an attempt to revitilize a dying economy. It will work for a while but overall, the American economy is shifting towards information and technology, much as it shifted from agriculture to industry 100 years ago.

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product. I drive a Ford truck for work, and have had good luck with them, but I drive a Studebaker for everything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have as much of a problem with subsidizing foreign car manufacturers that build an excellent product as I do bailing out the big three when they have had their head up their arse for too long.


Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona

1947 M-5

Wow, Jeff,do I feel for you! You sure have experienced things on both sides of the spectrum...six engines and seven transmissions in one vehicle? But your father-in-law's Honda minivan with 300K miles and no problems? Honda minivans have more gripes on the edmunds.com forum than any other van...mostly trans issues which are widely known to trans shops.

Bill Pressler
Kent, OH
'63 Lark Daytona Skytop R1

[41 Frank]

Everyones experiences vary Jeff. You have my symphathy on the Dodge problem. I have had 4 new Dodge trucks in the last 6 years and have only had 2 problems. One was a paint problem, caused by the dealer, it could not be corrected to my satisfaction so after writing a letter to Chrysler they bought the vehicle back. The other problem was with a transmission valve body,it was replaced in an hour. I believe with that many engine and transmission problems in your Dodge the lemon law should have been invoked and they would have had to give you a new truck. The no lubricant in the rear end problem was also experienced by a friend of mine, only it was in a Ford F-150.No manufacturer is immune to build problems in my opinion.

quote:Originally posted by jjones

I am not an economist, and I don't know all the circumstances that caused the demise of a number of car manufactureres in the 1950s-60s. I do know that a number of southern states are subsidizing foreign car and other manufacturers in an attempt to revitilize a dying economy. It will work for a while but overall, the American economy is shifting towards information and technology, much as it shifted from agriculture to industry 100 years ago.

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product. I drive a Ford truck for work, and have had good luck with them, but I drive a Studebaker for everything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have as much of a problem with subsidizing foreign car manufacturers that build an excellent product as I do bailing out the big three when they have had their head up their arse for too long.


Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona
1947 M-5

[nels]

I started to read the toyota and honda problems list but is is way too long. There must be some sort of mistake though as we ALL know that American products are absolutely inferior to any in the world, at least that is what a lot of Americans believe. These list were obviously concocted by GM, Ford and Chrysler.

quote:Originally posted by leyrret

American brands or foreign brands all have their problems. For example here are some owner remarks about the reliable Toyota: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...ta_engine.html and Honda: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/honda.html

[buddymander]

Any car built in the USA is an American car. I say let the big three die.

[jjones]

For the record, although my family has had excellent luck with the rice burners and most of my colleagues have gone to Toyota trucks for work, I drive a Ford truck, and will continue to drive a Ford or Chevy truck. I just can't convince myself to buy a foreign truck. As for the Dodge, I realize it was an exceptional lemon, but between it and the three dealers I fought with for two years, I couldn't own another one. I do like Randy's idea of subsidizing the buyer, not the big companies.


Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona
1947 M-5

[bams50]

quote:Originally posted by jjones

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product.

With all due respect, my friend, I have to call you on this! You certainly have the right to prefer foreigns, and may have had better luck with them that Americans, but come on!

To start with, there is NO manufacturer that would put that many engines or transmissions in ANY vehcle under warranty- nor would they fix it- nor would ANY customer put up with that much trouble with one vehicle. They'd buy it back, or the customer would make them do so under the Lemon Law. Doesn't hold water.

And, your claims of all roses and champagne with foreigns is a little over the top. 200K on a Kia without changing the oil? NO vehicle- foreign or domestic- will last with that neglect.

Here's some ACTUAL, non-exaggerated examples for you:

99 Dodge Grand Caravan AWD, 248K- delivers mail, 560 stops and starts, 5-6 days week. Other than tires and brakes, has needed 2 wheel bearings, battery, alternator and tensioner, about due for second exhaust replacement. Still runs like a top.

97 Buick Park Ave- 245K. Tires, brakes, rear engine mount, front struts. Runs new, gets 30+ MPG on the highway at 70 MPH. Would drive anywhere- and do.

95 Dodge Conversion Van, 206K- bought in FL with 130K in 2001, has carried our family from CNY to Disney Word and back 21 times, almost 3K miles round-trip. Towed many Studes home from PA, MI, VA, MD, and others. Towed 60 Lark wagon to SB Meet and back, A/C on, 5 people on board. Right at 200K started misfiring, ended up being main computer. Replaced fuel pump at 165K. Everything else original (never driven in CNY winters). Still would take anywhere TODAY.

89 Buick LeSabre- retired at 312K still running good because of cosmetic reasons, and tired original steering rack.

02 Grand Caravan- 137K. Still runs, drives, rides, and smells new; some rust starting to show, but minor thus far. NO repairs other than normal maintenance/wear items.

I can cite many others, including the Corolla-loving SIL's 89, 91, 95 Corollas in the crusher, all problematic and given up on under 100K. Sold her an 04 GP with 120K 2 years ago; ran to 160K, gave to niece, bought new 08 Corolla. Been back to dealer 4 times since bought in July, but she still swears by it.

I have no doubt you've had trouble with domestics, and good luck with foreigns; but exaggerating same weakens your case. Any company can have screw-ups and lemons, and do. But to infer that kind of difference in quality is unrealistic, and unfair.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

[b][i]"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when th

[nels]

Bob, I think I like you.

[KGlowacky]

Mr Shaw please consider closing this thread ASAP. It has nothing to do with Studebakers anymore. Americans buy cars based on their own experiences. I have resisted all day on commenting on this as it is a no win read and I believe it has started to get personal. Everyone has and will buy what they feel is best for their needs and let the chips fall where they may. Thank You.