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41 Frank
12-27-2008, 05:29 PM
I found this in the editorial page of our local newspaper today and found it to be an interesting observation. (Studebaker content included).

Present day Americans who defend buying foreign cars and cite a quality gap barely understand how Americans hurt U.S. automakers in the mid-20th century.
Americans had seven independent U.S. automakers to buy from to keep the Big Three honest.They were Packard Motor Car Co.,Hudson Motor Car Co,. Nash Motors, Studebaker Corp., Kaiser-Frazer Corp., Willys-Overland Motors and Crosley Automobile Co.
Crosley had the first subcompact. Willys had the first Jeeps and suburban utility vehicles. Kaiser-Frazer, Studebaker and Nash all had four and six cylinder cars that got 35 miles per gallon.
A Packard was a fine luxery car, and Hudson offered a high performance sports model. In the 1950's Studebaker was far ahead in design with its President, Golden Hawk and Avanti models.
Any of these three were equivalent to the Mustang, which Ford Motor Co. brought out in 1964. So, Studebaker was roughtly 10 years ahead of the Big Three.
If Americans had bought more cars from these independent U.S. automakers, we would have kept more jobs and money in America. How can anybody not see the stupidity of subsidising a foreign industry?

A citizen of Omaha.

I do see some holes in his thesis, namely the Big Three were having a price war in that time period and a lot of buyers were very price conscious then and so bought from them for that reason. We all know that higher production equals lower prices, that and the fact that labor costs at Studebaker were higher during that period.
(I did not write the article).

Frank van Doorn
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1963 Daytona Conv
1941 Champion R-2 Rod

Roscomacaw
12-27-2008, 07:03 PM
A bit fanciful with his recollection of available powerplants and miles per gallon too. Only Nash would've offered a 4-cyl during the time period he's lamenting about, and at that, it was an Austin 4 in the Metropolitan. 35MPG? Not in regualr driving!

His contention that the little guys kept the BIG 3 honest doesn't wash either. Build quality was crappy all around, and the last thing the Big 3 worried about was whether or not they "looked good" by little guy standards.

Even though Studebaker kicked butt on the Mobilgas Economy Runs, it didn't make a consequential difference. The Scotsman experiment proved (to a degree) that having the cheapest viable ride would draw some folks. And the Lark made a point about niche markets - which the BIG 3 addressed in 1960.

A good point to speculate about is WHAT IF Toyota had been able to acquire Studebaker and apply their standards and quality to the brand? The BIG 3 may STILL not have taken heed (they didn't when the Japs started to get a toe-hold anyways)

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

jjones
12-27-2008, 07:37 PM
I am not an economist, and I don't know all the circumstances that caused the demise of a number of car manufactureres in the 1950s-60s. I do know that a number of southern states are subsidizing foreign car and other manufacturers in an attempt to revitilize a dying economy. It will work for a while but overall, the American economy is shifting towards information and technology, much as it shifted from agriculture to industry 100 years ago.

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product. I drive a Ford truck for work, and have had good luck with them, but I drive a Studebaker for everything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have as much of a problem with subsidizing foreign car manufacturers that build an excellent product as I do bailing out the big three when they have had their head up their arse for too long.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff17/jeffhelen/DSCF1042.jpg
Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona
1947 M-5

arkiejazz
12-27-2008, 11:02 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

A bit fanciful with his recollection of available powerplants and miles per gallon too. Only Nash would've offered a 4-cyl during the time period he's lamenting about, and at that, it was an Austin 4 in the Metropolitan. 35MPG? Not in regualr driving!

His contention that the little guys kept the BIG 3 honest doesn't wash either. Build quality was crappy all around, and the last thing the Big 3 worried about was whether or not they "looked good" by little guy standards.

Even though Studebaker kicked butt on the Mobilgas Economy Runs, it didn't make a consequential difference. The Scotsman experiment proved (to a degree) that having the cheapest viable ride would draw some folks. And the Lark made a point about niche markets - which the BIG 3 addressed in 1960.

A good point to speculate about is WHAT IF Toyota had been able to acquire Studebaker and apply their standards and quality to the brand? The BIG 3 may STILL not have taken heed (they didn't when the Japs started to get a toe-hold anyways)

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door



[:o)]Generalizations are almost always dangerous. And while I normally agree with Mr.Biggs on most things, I have to take exception to the "build quality was crappy all around" remark. I have no direct experince with any car of the period save Hudson. I own Hudson cars from 1933 to 1954. I can testify that build quality on all of these automobiles is of the highest quality. o)]

steve blake...roaming the Texas Panhandle in my trusty Champ pickup
http://tinyurl.com/kr3gt
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l68/arkiejazz/thumbnails/p1010078-200x104.jpghttp://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l68/arkiejazz/thumbnails/p1010009-225x107.jpg

bridgegaurd
12-28-2008, 03:26 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

A bit fanciful with his recollection of available powerplants and miles per gallon too. Only Nash would've offered a 4-cyl during the time period he's lamenting about, and at that, it was an Austin 4 in the Metropolitan. 35MPG? Not in regualr driving!


A good point to speculate about is WHAT IF Toyota had been able to acquire Studebaker and apply their standards and quality to the brand?

Hmm Willys four cylinder! I thought it existed, it certainly did in the toyota BJ (jeep copy)

Quality at Toyota in 1964 how many of these pigs are still around.

Mid century Toyota buying Studebaker seems to me that Toyota wanted Studebaker to sell thier junk.

Although it was at Toyota that the rip off of the Ford improvemnt process program became successfull (now known as Six Sigma or Lean Kaizen) it took endless years to get it right. And it took a stupid decision by GM/Opal to get an engine that wasn't slobbering oil like a drunk bay on valvoline.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Museum/data_e/a03_10_1.html

Hey how about them hondas.

Who's fault is it about the big 3, why those who let them get away with it. Build it and they shall come, and they did.

rodnutrandy
12-28-2008, 05:15 AM
My thought is what good will it do to hand the big three cash? If we don't have the money to buy a$40,000 truck or luxury car , then it doesn't matter how many they build. I e-mailed my reps. with 2 thoughts, 1. Give all the citizens a $20,000 voucher towards a new car or truck( we are paying for the bailout, so why shouldn't we profit from it)that would sell more vehicles than a bailout. 2. Do NOT send out vouchers until all jobs are brought back in the USA. I have seen slews of plants shut down , Why should we bail out the big 3 to build in other countries, let the other countries bail them out.

Randy Wilkin
1946 M5 Streetrod
Hillsboro,Ohio 45133
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/3105614572_3fbddc8fd7_m.jpg

leyrret
12-28-2008, 07:35 AM
American brands or foreign brands all have their problems. For example here are some owner remarks about the reliable Toyota: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html and Honda: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/honda.html

Bill Pressler
12-28-2008, 07:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by jjones

I am not an economist, and I don't know all the circumstances that caused the demise of a number of car manufactureres in the 1950s-60s. I do know that a number of southern states are subsidizing foreign car and other manufacturers in an attempt to revitilize a dying economy. It will work for a while but overall, the American economy is shifting towards information and technology, much as it shifted from agriculture to industry 100 years ago.

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product. I drive a Ford truck for work, and have had good luck with them, but I drive a Studebaker for everything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have as much of a problem with subsidizing foreign car manufacturers that build an excellent product as I do bailing out the big three when they have had their head up their arse for too long.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff17/jeffhelen/DSCF1042.jpg
Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona

1947 M-5


Wow, Jeff,do I feel for you! You sure have experienced things on both sides of the spectrum...six engines and seven transmissions in one vehicle? But your father-in-law's Honda minivan with 300K miles and no problems? Honda minivans have more gripes on the edmunds.com forum than any other van...mostly trans issues which are widely known to trans shops.

Bill Pressler
Kent, OH
'63 Lark Daytona Skytop R1

41 Frank
12-28-2008, 08:27 AM
Everyones experiences vary Jeff. You have my symphathy on the Dodge problem. I have had 4 new Dodge trucks in the last 6 years and have only had 2 problems. One was a paint problem, caused by the dealer, it could not be corrected to my satisfaction so after writing a letter to Chrysler they bought the vehicle back. The other problem was with a transmission valve body,it was replaced in an hour. I believe with that many engine and transmission problems in your Dodge the lemon law should have been invoked and they would have had to give you a new truck. The no lubricant in the rear end problem was also experienced by a friend of mine, only it was in a Ford F-150.No manufacturer is immune to build problems in my opinion.




quote:Originally posted by jjones

I am not an economist, and I don't know all the circumstances that caused the demise of a number of car manufactureres in the 1950s-60s. I do know that a number of southern states are subsidizing foreign car and other manufacturers in an attempt to revitilize a dying economy. It will work for a while but overall, the American economy is shifting towards information and technology, much as it shifted from agriculture to industry 100 years ago.

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product. I drive a Ford truck for work, and have had good luck with them, but I drive a Studebaker for everything else.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't have as much of a problem with subsidizing foreign car manufacturers that build an excellent product as I do bailing out the big three when they have had their head up their arse for too long.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff17/jeffhelen/DSCF1042.jpg
Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona
1947 M-5

nels
12-28-2008, 03:33 PM
I started to read the toyota and honda problems list but is is way too long. There must be some sort of mistake though as we ALL know that American products are absolutely inferior to any in the world, at least that is what a lot of Americans believe. These list were obviously concocted by GM, Ford and Chrysler.








quote:Originally posted by leyrret

American brands or foreign brands all have their problems. For example here are some owner remarks about the reliable Toyota: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html and Honda: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/honda.html

buddymander
12-28-2008, 05:15 PM
Any car built in the USA is an American car. I say let the big three die.

jjones
12-28-2008, 05:47 PM
For the record, although my family has had excellent luck with the rice burners and most of my colleagues have gone to Toyota trucks for work, I drive a Ford truck, and will continue to drive a Ford or Chevy truck. I just can't convince myself to buy a foreign truck. As for the Dodge, I realize it was an exceptional lemon, but between it and the three dealers I fought with for two years, I couldn't own another one. I do like Randy's idea of subsidizing the buyer, not the big companies.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff17/jeffhelen/DSCF1042.jpg
Jeff Jones
Tucson Arizona
1947 M-5

bams50
12-28-2008, 09:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by jjones

I also know that my wife is on her third Toyota. It has over 200,000 miles on it with absolutely no problems. My daughters Honda Civic has over 200,000 miles with no problems, my father-in-laws Honda mini van has almost 300,000 miles on it with no problems, and even my brother in law's Kia has almost 200,000 miles and I doubt he has ever changed the oil. On the other hand, my neighbor bought a new Chrysler 300--the rear end froze up coming home from the dealership. There was no oil in it, and never had been. A coworker has a 2-year old Murcery full-sized car--he has all kinds of suspension (air bag) problems. Another coworker has a Saturn that is in the shop more than it is out--electrical problems. Seems to be a GM trait--notice how many GM trucks are driving around with one or more lights not working. I bought a Dodge truck several years ago--6 engines and 7 transmissions while still under warrenty. Needles to say I would never own another Chrysler product.

With all due respect, my friend, I have to call you on this! You certainly have the right to prefer foreigns, and may have had better luck with them that Americans, but come on!

To start with, there is NO manufacturer that would put that many engines or transmissions in ANY vehcle under warranty- nor would they fix it- nor would ANY customer put up with that much trouble with one vehicle. They'd buy it back, or the customer would make them do so under the Lemon Law. Doesn't hold water.

And, your claims of all roses and champagne with foreigns is a little over the top. 200K on a Kia without changing the oil? NO vehicle- foreign or domestic- will last with that neglect.

Here's some ACTUAL, non-exaggerated examples for you:

99 Dodge Grand Caravan AWD, 248K- delivers mail, 560 stops and starts, 5-6 days week. Other than tires and brakes, has needed 2 wheel bearings, battery, alternator and tensioner, about due for second exhaust replacement. Still runs like a top.

97 Buick Park Ave- 245K. Tires, brakes, rear engine mount, front struts. Runs new, gets 30+ MPG on the highway at 70 MPH. Would drive anywhere- and do.

95 Dodge Conversion Van, 206K- bought in FL with 130K in 2001, has carried our family from CNY to Disney Word and back 21 times, almost 3K miles round-trip. Towed many Studes home from PA, MI, VA, MD, and others. Towed 60 Lark wagon to SB Meet and back, A/C on, 5 people on board. Right at 200K started misfiring, ended up being main computer. Replaced fuel pump at 165K. Everything else original (never driven in CNY winters). Still would take anywhere TODAY.

89 Buick LeSabre- retired at 312K still running good because of cosmetic reasons, and tired original steering rack.

02 Grand Caravan- 137K. Still runs, drives, rides, and smells new; some rust starting to show, but minor thus far. NO repairs other than normal maintenance/wear items.

I can cite many others, including the Corolla-loving SIL's 89, 91, 95 Corollas in the crusher, all problematic and given up on under 100K. Sold her an 04 GP with 120K 2 years ago; ran to 160K, gave to niece, bought new 08 Corolla. Been back to dealer 4 times since bought in July, but she still swears by it.

I have no doubt you've had trouble with domestics, and good luck with foreigns; but exaggerating same weakens your case. Any company can have screw-ups and lemons, and do. But to infer that kind of difference in quality is unrealistic, and unfair.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

[b][i]"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when th

nels
12-28-2008, 10:14 PM
Bob, I think I like you.

KGlowacky
12-28-2008, 10:56 PM
Mr Shaw please consider closing this thread ASAP. It has nothing to do with Studebakers anymore. Americans buy cars based on their own experiences. I have resisted all day on commenting on this as it is a no win read and I believe it has started to get personal. Everyone has and will buy what they feel is best for their needs and let the chips fall where they may. Thank You.

BobPalma
12-28-2008, 11:39 PM
:) The "problem" here is more psychological than actual, and always will be. People are loath -all of us- to admit we've been duped. People currently buying Toyotas, especially, will defend them to their death (the car's death, not the owner's) simply to avoid having to admit they've been had.

After all, let's say they bought a Toyota (or, often, Honda) after a 200R transmission took an early powder in their 1977 Caprice with a 305 engine, right after the soft camshaft checked out early...both entirely probable as any of us in the car biz will admit. So the owner gets all honked off and swears he'll never own another domestic and goes out and buys a new 1999 Camry.

The Camry suffers the well-documented engine sludge problem, but the purchaser is already primed to defend Toyota, rather than admit he was wrong to go off half-cocked when he could have bought a new 1999 Lumina sedan that would still be ticking along happily at 150,000 miles with little more attention than regular oil changes. Said Toyota buyer, faced with a sludged-up Camry needing a whole engine well before 100,000 miles, plays down the reality of the Toyota's severe problem and continues lambasting domestics to appear cool and hip and fit in with the conversation at his/her local Starbucks.

Those of us in the car business know this all too well: Perception is reality in the car business. It's not unlike Studebaker's problems in the mid 1960s. [Required Studebaker content...and valid, too!]

No matter that the 2008 Chevy Malibu scored 24 out of 25 Points of Initial Quality in J. D. Powers evaluations (true) and subsequently received The J. D. Powers Best Initial Quality Award in class for 2008, soundly defeating the Camry, which scored only 19 of the 25 in the same rating by the same non-partisan people: If you ask a dozen actual buyers of new Camrys if they even considered the Malibu, most will probably babble something incoherent about domestic quality, possibly citing the R4 air conditioning compressor having seized on their neighbor's fairly new 1979 Buick Regal 30 years ago, thus "proving" GM can't build good cars.

Toyota and Honda aside, the best example I've ever seen in this business, and I've been a full-time player for 28 years and was a part-time player/observer for 25 years before that, is Mercedes-Benz. Few cars cost as much to own per mile as do Mercedes-Benz...but to their owners, the car isn't a motor vehicle, it's a religion when it comes to blithely ignoring their obscene cost-per-ownership-mile.

Not to mention the poor sucker who fails to report to his Honda Service Department for the required timing belt replacement, thus expanding his vocabulary to include an accurate understanding of the term interference engine.

But his Honda sure got good gas mileage on his way to Starbucks the first 82,000 miles... :DBP

BobPalma
12-28-2008, 11:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by KGlowacky

Mr Shaw please consider closing this thread ASAP. It has nothing to do with Studebakers anymore. Americans buy cars based on their own experiences. I have resisted all day on commenting on this as it is a no win read and I believe it has started to get personal. Everyone has and will buy what they feel is best for their needs and let the chips fall where they may. Thank You.


:) No disagreement on the topic drift, Ken, but it's still a valid topic: We are all car enthusiasts and the current state of affairs impacts our hobby whether we like it or not. There are indeed current similarities to the very factors that doomed Studebaker.

Perhaps an alternative suggestion would be to move the whole thread to Stove Huggers, if that is possible. After all, no one has thrown in politics or religion...well, at least not yet![:o)] :DBP

rodnutrandy
12-29-2008, 12:40 AM
I can appreciate everyone"s opinion and experiance. I have always owned domestic ,so may have missed the boat. But would love to have some back, and would be happy to skip others. I get a lot of being in the wrong because I drive a SUV (4.7 V8 Grand Cherokee.) it gets 2 MPG less than a 4.0 V6 4x4 Ranger I Owned. But the Jeep will pull 5500 Lbs behind it all day and my Ranger wouldn't have handled it. And no ,I don't tow every day,just can't afford a different vehicle every day. Did rebuild Rangers automatic 3 times( less than 100,000 miles) . Have not had to touch G.C other than change fluid (147,000 miles). Hope to drive my Studebaker enough to help Jeep last longer.

Randy Wilkin
1946 M5 Streetrod
Hillsboro,Ohio 45133
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/3105614572_3fbddc8fd7_m.jpg

KGlowacky
12-29-2008, 12:42 AM
Ok, I guess this will continue. I happen to be in the process of buying a new car. My decision will be based on currently owning a 10 year old Toyota Avalon (187,500 miles)and a 3 year old Grand Prix.(50,000 miles) I will add I was born and raised in NE Ohio and have family that work(ed) at GM. Retired and still employed. The only comment I will make is for 20 years the big three priced their cars $2,000 to $3000.00 below Toyota and Honda and still lost market share year after year. WHY?? I welcome the day when a CEO talks about increasing sales revenue and market share to get the company profitable and NOT cutting cost. An example would be to offer a 100,000 miles bumper to bumper factory warranty to new purchases that is real and covers everything but general maintenance. Not some third party garbage that no one can collect on and limited coverage of things like switches, a/c compressors and so on. As far as so called buying American. I will. The car will be built in the US by American workers no matter what the brand. Don't care about what state or city it comes from.

JDP
12-29-2008, 12:50 AM
Bought my first Mercedes-Benz last year. It was 120,000 mile 1999 280c cream puff that cost me 7K. I blast up to Atlantic City twice a month and have put 20,0000 miles on it. I had to lube the wiper mechanism and change the oil, and that's it. Evey factory bell a whistle still works and it's a joy to drive. It was ny first Mercedes-Benz, but won't be my last unless it out lives me.:)
The 7 quarts of synthetic oil every 12,000 miles was a shock though.

JDP/Maryland
Please vote for Sid (64GT)in the NYT contest.
http://collectiblecars.nytimes.com/Contest/

nels
12-29-2008, 08:55 AM
Bob Palma, you bring up a good point about remembering a person's problem with a domestic car 20 yrs ago and carrying it forward to today, punishing the US auto industry and the country as a get even measure. When I first got into Studes some 40 plus yrs ago, I also ended up getting my best buddy interested enough that he bought a used 63 GT 4 spd. His dad was very upset about it. His dad's contention was this: his father had bought a new 1941 Studebaker and it rode rough and for this reason his dad would not buy another. I thought at the time, a 1963 Stude certainly was by no means close to a 1941 model. But who was I to doubt, I was only 18.
So, the same applied years ago that seems to apply today but today its not little Studebaker at risk its our country.

Being from the American auto industry, I've noticed that in the past the Japanese auto industry seemed to statistically outperform its US counterparts when it came to repairs per thousand per time in service. The differences were generally not large at all but statistically they were there. Well just the other day while having a coffee at the local coffee shop I met one of the statisticians that worked for one of the noteable ranking agencies. He had personally worked on many of the comparisons we have all seen. I asked why the Japanese even outrank the American cars when some actually come off the same assembly lines and are the same vehicle with the exception of a grill, a few trim items and a name. His answer was: the Japanese cars that are compared to a similar American car always cost more and therefore attract a more affluant buyer. That buyer is less likely to be stretching his or her finances to make the purchase. Therefore they are statistically less likely to complain about a minor squeek or rattle. The buyer of the less expensive American car is continually at odds with themselves for purchasing what they could not really afford and returns to the dealer to make sure they get their money's worth on repairs.

bonehead007
12-29-2008, 09:07 AM
We can go on for hours comparing "war stories" about foreign & US built cars. I have 2 Camry's, a 2005 with 75,000 & a 2001 wit 110,000. Not one major trouble. Had a 1996 Stratus that was such a lemon, even the dealer mechanic didn't want to repair it anymore.

The main problem is financing has "dried up" so, anyone that wants a car has to have pristine credit and even that will be scrutizied.

Add the greed of the upper management of all three, GM, Ford & Chrysler where their main concern was their multi million dollar salaries,options & bonuses. As long as they kept going up, who cared about quality & oil.

Unfortunately, most manufacturing is slowly getting bled out of the US to foreign countries due to cost. Unless we are willing to pay the price for US built, we'll continue to rely on & buy foreign imports. Look at China, they recently announced their building an auto plant in Mexico...

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

nels
12-29-2008, 09:31 AM
I've had two new vehicles in my life a 03 Ford Ranger and now an 08 Ranger. The 03 had 70k on it when I traded it in on the 08. The 03 was absolutely perfect for the 70k plus miles. Absolutely nothing done but oil changes, even had the original tires when sold. I used it like a truck hauling Studes and campers all over the country getting great mileage while doing so. The 08 is the extended cab version that is better suited for travel. It already has 18k on it and again has been absolutely trouble free.

By the way, what was Studebakers warranty back in the day. Was it typically 2 yrs and 12k miles or what? I guess they went with whatever the others offered?

nels
12-29-2008, 09:46 AM
I can somewhat agree with what you are saying. The 96 Stratus vs an 05 or 01 Camry is a typical type comparison. But, the Stratus was 13 model yrs ago....things change, just like the 1941 to 1963 Stude I mentioned earlier. Considereing the war years, the 1963 Stude was 12 model years from the 1941. That seemed an eternity to me at my age then. I guess the older we get the faster time goes by.



quote:Originally posted by bonehead007

We can go on for hours comparing "war stories" about foreign & US built cars. I have 2 Camry's, a 2005 with 75,000 & a 2001 wit 110,000. Not one major trouble. Had a 1996 Stratus that was such a lemon, even the dealer mechanic didn't want to repair it anymore.

The main problem is financing has "dried up" so, anyone that wants a car has to have pristine credit and even that will be scrutizied.

Add the greed of the upper management of all three, GM, Ford & Chrysler where their main concern was their multi million dollar salaries,options & bonuses. As long as they kept going up, who cared about quality & oil.

Unfortunately, most manufacturing is slowly getting bled out of the US to foreign countries due to cost. Unless we are willing to pay the price for US built, we'll continue to rely on & buy foreign imports. Look at China, they recently announced their building an auto plant in Mexico...

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

fiftystarlightcoupe
12-29-2008, 11:56 AM
I think there is one factor of this topic that is being overlooked. The youth market. In my opinion, imports began their rise in the mid to late seventies. This was primarily due to quality issues along with gas prices rising. The (Japanese) imports were also cheap. If you were born after this time period, imports were a part of growing up. They are not looked upon in the same light as we (older) people do. Looking at the IRL powerplants along with Toyota's involvement in every phase of motorsports also helps promote the import performance "image". This is also true in the motorcycle market. The imports have played their cards well attracting the youth market and I don't see any decline in the future.

Chuck/Ohio 9G-C5

bridgegaurd
12-29-2008, 01:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by fiftystarlightcoupe

I think there is one factor of this topic that is being overlooked. The youth market. In my opinion, imports began their rise in the mid to late seventies. This was primarily due to quality issues along with gas prices rising. The (Japanese) imports were also cheap. If you were born after this time period, imports were a part of growing up. Chuck/Ohio 9G-C5

I would say that this and DePalmas post pretty much covers it all. It's pretty much the same with all products 1. Youth rules 2. personal opinions and advertising will influance your buying decision more than anything.

There are also two kinds of car owners 1. Car nuts 2. i need a ride what do i care what 3.2 means. Does it start? Can i finance it.

Car nuts will argue about anything automotive till it ot they fall to the ground, and maybe beyond.

8E45E
12-29-2008, 02:06 PM
quote:Originally posted by fiftystarlightcoupe

I think there is one factor of this topic that is being overlooked. The youth market. In my opinion, imports began their rise in the mid to late seventies. This was primarily due to quality issues along with gas prices rising. The (Japanese) imports were also cheap. If you were born after this time period, imports were a part of growing up. They are not looked upon in the same light as we (older) people do. Looking at the IRL powerplants along with Toyota's involvement in every phase of motorsports also helps promote the import performance "image". This is also true in the motorcycle market. The imports have played their cards well attracting the youth market and I don't see any decline in the future.



This is an issue that is dividing the local Vintage Sports Car Club here right now. Its membership consists of older ones with their MG's, Triumphs, Jaguars, along with the odd Volvo P1800, Corvette and 1960's DATSUN 1600. Right now, the only way they are going to attract new memebers and the all-important youth to carry on the club is to reluctantly accept the Subuaru WRX STi's and Mitsubishi EVO's and all the other 'tuner' cars in order to maintain the memebership they desire.

Craig

sals54
12-29-2008, 02:31 PM
Craig, They could also consider remanufacturing replicas of all the cars currently in their club. That would attract a whole new set of participants. Well, then they would have fights over who drives the originals and who drives the kit cars. Never mind.

sals54
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm197/sals54/NewSignature.jpg

jnewkirk77
12-29-2008, 04:19 PM
I've owned or driven vehicles from all of the Big Three since I got my license in 1993. Good, bad, and ugly!

The GOOD:
1983 Olds Delta 88 -- The most comfortable car I've owned. The 307 V-8 (which came from a wrecked 442) was a real gas. And it still got 22-25 MPG on the road.

1987 Ford F-150 -- Rusty but incredibly reliable. The only thing that would've made it better would've been the 300 six. As it is, the 302 is pretty darn tough. I'd keep it, but my uncle passed away and I'm getting his '92 F-150 "Nite" SuperCab, and I've no room for two big pickups!

1989 Ford Escort Pony -- Got anywhere from 28-30 MPG in town, up to 53 on the highway (at speeds of 60 MPH+). Cost me a grand total of $400 in repairs/maintenance over 3 years' time. It'd probably still be running if it hadn't gotten creamed by a semi on I-65 in Indianapolis nine years ago.

1992 and '97 Ford Ranger XLTs -- Both had the 2.3L four and stickshift. Excellent performance and mileage given what they were. The only flaw I could find was, as usual on Ford pickups, rust. But it never got to the point of being a structural problem. Both lasted well over 200K miles.

1994 Dodge Grand Caravan ES -- Yeah, I had to do a transmission at 144K, but otherwise the thing just ran and ran. The 3.8L V6 was an awesome engine, very powerful yet efficient. Was still doing long road trips from KY to OK at 210K miles. Sold it with 215K and still wish I hadn't.

The BAD:
1978 Dodge Diplomat -- This was a beautiful car, but the Lean Burn system was a nightmare. Add in transmission and alignment problems from the transverse torsion bar front end, and I was about ready to tear my hair out.

1989 Chevy S-10 -- I was glad to get back into a Ranger after this one's 2.5 "Tech 4" sprang every oil leak an engine can produce.

1990 Cadillac Brougham -- I was hopeful GM had cured the 200-4R tranny by the time this one was built. My hope was dashed early.

THE UGLY
1994 Ford Tempo -- If you've had one, a description isn't needed.

1977 Dodge Tradesman 100 -- Rust. Disintegrating bushings in the shift linkage. Capable of burning up an alternator every 100 miles. Yeah, this baby had it all.

My point is this: I'd rather put up with the good, the bad and the ugly from the companies that keep food on the table for millions of my fellow Americans!

Jacob Newkirk - Owensboro, KY

KEEP AMERICA BEAUTIFUL! Drive a Studebaker!

jnewkirk77
12-29-2008, 04:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by nels

I've had two new vehicles in my life a 03 Ford Ranger and now an 08 Ranger. The 03 had 70k on it when I traded it in on the 08. The 03 was absolutely perfect for the 70k plus miles. Absolutely nothing done but oil changes, even had the original tires when sold. I used it like a truck hauling Studes and campers all over the country getting great mileage while doing so. The 08 is the extended cab version that is better suited for travel. It already has 18k on it and again has been absolutely trouble free.

By the way, what was Studebakers warranty back in the day. Was it typically 2 yrs and 12k miles or what? I guess they went with whatever the others offered?


Nels, as I recall, the warranty was 90 days or 4,000 miles up until '60-61 or so, then it went to 1 yr/12,000 miles. Finally it was 2 yrs/24,000 miles starting with the '63s, I think.

Jacob Newkirk - Owensboro, KY

KEEP AMERICA BEAUTIFUL! Drive a Studebaker!

PlainBrownR2
12-29-2008, 06:19 PM
quote:
I think there is one factor of this topic that is being overlooked. The youth market. In my opinion, imports began their rise in the mid to late seventies. This was primarily due to quality issues along with gas prices rising. The (Japanese) imports were also cheap. If you were born after this time period, imports were a part of growing up. They are not looked upon in the same light as we (older) people do. Looking at the IRL powerplants along with Toyota's involvement in every phase of motorsports also helps promote the import performance "image". This is also true in the motorcycle market. The imports have played their cards well attracting the youth market and I don't see any decline in the future.


....and that, for me, pretty much hits the nail on the head......

I like my stuff at this point in life to go fast. When I perused the Yahoo chatrooms we were never thrilled on 4 cylinder FWD engines. The opinion on playing with those was less than satfisfactory as now all that mass had to be pulled now instead of pushed. Hondas were out, Camry's were out, and half of GM was out. GM was really something in particular as the running joke was to see how long before GM decided to turn there newest product into a six cylinder FWD vehicle(this continued clear up to when they decided to revive the Camaro). I have little interest in mileage(despite its pluses), Onstar, or what AV gizmo is in the dash. I like my stuff with an engine, a sizeable hp rating, and RWD or AWD. That's where Toyota and Subaru comes into play. The Toyota Supra, the Lexus SC400,the Mitsubishi EVO's, the Skylines, the Mitsubishi Avengers, and the Subaru WRX's of the world had these items. A few of those even had a supercharger or turbo(or two) to go along with the V8 that really increased the fun factor.
That is also why I never left the Studebaker set, as they stayed with the albeit smaller performance portion until the end. That, and the simplicity of the engine compartment.

[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201950%202r5%20Studebaker%20Pickup%20with%20turbocharger/P1000137-1.jpg[/img=left][img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201950%202r5%20Studebaker%20Pickup%20with%20turbocharger/P1000145-1.jpg[/img=left][IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

Dick Steinkamp
12-29-2008, 08:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by jnewkirk77


My point is this: I'd rather put up with the good, the bad and the ugly from the companies that keep food on the table for millions of my fellow Americans!



Actually, that would be Honda, Toyota, Suburu, VW, and BMW. They all have plants in the US that employ only US workers and have a higher content of US made parts than most big 3 plants.

What puts food on the table for more Americans. A Honda Accord or a Chevy Silverado?

(Hint...Honda is assembled in Marysville, Ohio with over 50% US supplied parts. Chevy is assembled in Toluca, Mexico of less than 50% US supplied parts).

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/Stude-a-mino%20old%20pics/oldpics6asmall.jpg http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/finished044.jpg

BobPalma
12-29-2008, 09:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by jnewkirk77


My point is this: I'd rather put up with the good, the bad and the ugly from the companies that keep food on the table for millions of my fellow Americans!



Actually, that would be Honda, Toyota, Suburu, VW, and BMW. They all have plants in the US that employ only US workers and have a higher content of US made parts than most big 3 plants.

What puts food on the table for more Americans. A Honda Accord or a Chevy Silverado?

(Hint...Honda is assembled in Marysville, Ohio with over 50% US supplied parts. Chevy is assembled in Toluca, Mexico of less than 50% US supplied parts).

Dick Steinkamp


:) Whoa, Dick: A goodly number of Silverados and GMC Sierras are sourced at GM Truck Assembly in Roanoke INDIANA, just southwest of Ft. Wayne. An enormous plant, one of GM's newest and best, cranking out hundreds of Silverados and Sierras daily. (Sorry I don't have production figures and percentages, but it's a big place.)

And after all the bills are paid, the profit from the manufacture and sale of those trucks stays right here in the United States, too. :DBP

Dick Steinkamp
12-29-2008, 09:07 PM
quote:Originally posted by BobPalma

And after all the bills are paid, the profit from the manufacture and sale of those trucks stays right here in the United States, too. :DBP


"profit" on a good day is much less than 10% (and I'm not sure a US maker has seen that in several years). On a $20,000 Honda/Silverado, at the most, $2k goes to Japan, $18k stays right here. On the Mexican Silverado, $2k comes here, $18k stays in Mexico.

My Sierra IS made in the Indiana plant, but to assume that anything with an American manufacturer badge is providing American jobs and anything with a foreign badge is not, is a mistake.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/Stude-a-mino%20old%20pics/oldpics6asmall.jpg http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/finished044.jpg

BobPalma
12-29-2008, 09:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
My Sierra IS made in the Indiana plant, but to assume that anything with an American manufacturer badge is providing American jobs and anything with a foreign badge is not, is a mistake.

Dick Steinkamp



:) No big argument, Dick; I just thought it was misleading to imply that all Silverados were assembled in Mexico, especially when I marvel at the huge factory that is GM Ft. Wayne Assembly every time I pass by it on I-69.

Actually, I believe full-size Dodge Ram pickups might be a better example of the point you're trying to make; I'm not sure any of them are assembled in The United States![:0] :DBP

jnewkirk77
12-29-2008, 11:36 PM
Hang on there, Bob ... most of the 1500-series Rams are built here in the US of A! Chrysler's big Warren, MI truck plant cranks them out, along with the north part of the Fenton, MO plant. Unfortunately, I think the Fenton operation as a whole is on the chopping block (they've already shut down the minivan operation[V]).

As for the biggies, the 2500-5500 models, yes, they all come from, as the late Frank Sinatra might put it, "South of the Border ... down Mexico way!"

And oh, yeah ... the Hemi is built in Mexico too ... :(

Jacob Newkirk - Owensboro, KY

KEEP AMERICA BEAUTIFUL! Drive a Studebaker!

8E45E
12-29-2008, 11:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by jnewkirk77


Nels, as I recall, the warranty was 90 days or 4,000 miles up until '60-61 or so, then it went to 1 yr/12,000 miles. Finally it was 2 yrs/24,000 miles starting with the '63s, I think.



Up until 1963, the 2 year/24,000 mile warranty was standard, until Chrysler came along and offered an unheard of 5 year/50,000 mile warranty on their cars that year. I know GM and Ford offered 5 year/50,000 mile warranties not long after, as my mom bought a two year old 1969 Ford Fairlane, paid the $25.00 transfer fee, and got the balance of the warranty on it.

Craig

bonehead007
12-30-2008, 06:00 AM
I agree with you jnewkirk77, I'd rather but American but, even today, what constitutes an "American " car ? When I went to look at a Dodge back in 2005, the one I wanted was made in Mexico. I opted for a 2005 Toyota Camry which, was made in Georgetown Kentucky by American workers.

Plus another problem with GM & Chrysler then & now, is that Consumer Reports rated them the lowest in quality & resale value. I'm not knocking the Big 3 but, it boils down to when you buy something you look at price and quality. Especially in today's economy.

Even if Studebaker had survived today, do you think they would have still manufactured in South Bend or looked for cheaper non union labor in the south or even Mexico ?

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q189/bonehead007/MVC-021F.jpg

New Jersey & Studes Perfect Together

bams50
12-30-2008, 06:14 AM
Simple. If it's a Ford, Chrysler Corp. or GM brand nameplate, it's American. Every car has at least components made all over the world; so where they're made isn't a good indicator.

It's about what you want your everyday car to tell fellow Americans- or more importantly, what flag of support you fly. I'm stuck- after all my loving-my-country preaching to my family, I'd be trampled if I ever put a foreign brand in my driveway... not that it will ever happen.

Thanks to the attitudes today, it may come to a point that there are no American brand names left. If that happens, at least there's plenty already in existence for me to live out my time; I don't buy new anyway.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

lstude
12-30-2008, 07:43 AM
quote:Actually, I believe full-size Dodge Ram pickups might be a better example of the point you're trying to make; I'm not sure any of them are assembled in The United States! BP

My 2006 Dodge Ram was assembled in St. Louis.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/LHSJR/Assemblysticker.jpg



Leonard Shepherd
http://leonardshepherd.com/

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/LHSJR/MyStudebakernobackgroundsm.jpg

BobPalma
12-30-2008, 07:50 AM
quote:Originally posted by jnewkirk77

... most of the 1500-series Rams are built here in the US of A! Chrysler's big Warren, MI truck plant cranks them out, along with the north part of the Fenton, MO plant. Unfortunately, I think the Fenton operation as a whole is on the chopping block (they've already shut down the minivan operation[V]).

As for the biggies, the 2500-5500 models, yes, they all come from, as the late Frank Sinatra might put it, "South of the Border ... down Mexico way!"

And oh, yeah ... the Hemi is built in Mexico too ... :(

Jacob Newkirk


:) Excellent, Jacob; thanks for the clarification. I guess I've seen enough 2500 series and up Rams to think all the Rams were made in Mexico; I didn't realize they also assembled larger trucks in Warren.

The 2002 Dakota I purchased new contains the following information on the original window sticker:

US/Canadian Parts Content: 89%
Final Assembly Point: Warren MI
Country of Origin: Engine, United States; Transmission, United States.

Sadly, they have since closed and leveled the Chrysler Foundry here in Indianapolis, so I think the engine block on a new one would be sourced in Mexico.[V] :DBP

BobPalma
12-30-2008, 07:53 AM
quote:Originally posted by lstude

My 2006 Dodge Ram was assembled in St. Louis.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/LHSJR/Assemblysticker.jpg



Leonard Shepherd


:) You bet, Leonard; I gladly stand corrected on the 1500 series Rams, per Jacob's earlier post. I hope Fenton [St. Louis] survives the hatchet. :DBP

8E45E
12-30-2008, 07:57 AM
quote:Originally posted by bams50
Thanks to the attitudes today, it may come to a point that there are no American brand names left. If that happens, at least there's plenty already in existence for me to live out my time; I don't buy new anyway.



We may have a repeat of what happened to the British-owned car industry. But hey? Don't they still build GM's and Fords over there? Maybe the grass is greener on the other side of the pond!

Craig

jnewkirk77
12-30-2008, 01:17 PM
Bob, I remember when they closed the Chrysler foundry. That's where the blocks for both my '94 (3.8L) and '02 (3.3L) Caravans were cast. Now they come from Magna in Germany, if memory serves.

I don't know if Allpar.com still maintains an up-to-date list of "what's built where" at Chrysler, but here are the ones I know:

BELVIDERE, IL: Dodge Caliber, Jeep Patriot/Compass
STERLING HEIGHTS, MI: Dodge Avenger, Chrysler Sebring sedan/convertible
WARREN, MI: Dodge Ram 1500/Dakota, Mitsubishi Raider
ST. LOUIS NORTH, MO: Dodge Ram 1500
BRAMPTON, ONTARIO, CANADA: Dodge Charger/Challenger, Chrysler 300
WINDSOR, ONTARIO, CANADA: Dodge Grand Caravan, Chrysler Town & Country, Volkswagen Routan
DETROIT, MI: Jeep Grand Cherokee/Commander (plant known as Jefferson North)
DETROIT, MI: Dodge Viper (Conner Avenue)
TOLEDO NORTH, OH: Jeep Liberty, Dodge Nitro
TOLEDO SOUTH, OH: Jeep Wrangler
TOLUCA, MEXICO: Chrysler PT Cruiser, Dodge Journey
SALTILLO, MEXICO: Dodge Ram (heavy-duty)

I held out on including Newark, DE ... this was the Durango/Aspen plant, which closed the Friday before Christmas. Sadly, not even the new Hybrid Durango and Hybrid Aspen could save it. In fact, I'm not sure more than a "midget's handful" (to quote the late Tom McCahill) of hybrids ever got out before the place shut down ... sad, sad, sad!

A note about St. Louis ... the South plant, which built minivans from 1996 until this year before being closed, opened in 1959, replacing the Evansville, Indiana plant which was built by the Graham Brothers in the 1920s. Some workers from Evansville (including one of my great-uncles) transferred to St. Louis (with expenses paid by the company, of course) rather than lose their jobs.

Jacob Newkirk - Owensboro, KY

KEEP AMERICA BEAUTIFUL! Drive a Studebaker!

Andy R.
12-30-2008, 01:39 PM
I'd hold off on citing the Honda plant in Marysville, OH as a paragon of domestic labor content. Their employment practices are "creative" to say the least:

1) All workers, for the first 3+ years, are actually temporary employees provided by Adecco, a New Zealand based recruiting company. Fees for this staffing go to London, where Adecco is headquartered.

2) Only after 3 years, an Adecco temp can apply for employment with Honda. The catch is, once they submit an application with Honda, their employment with Adecco is classified as a willful termination.

3) So, if they apply for the Honda position and DON'T get it, they are left with no recourse. Since their termination with Adecco was willful, they are, with scant exceptions, denied unemployment benefits that they paid into the system.

Hardly a paragon of occupational stability, unless one counts keeping their employees "between a rock and a hard place" as stable.[V]

Andy
62 GT

http://a6.vox.com/6a00cdf7ec2443094f0109d0f5b14e000f-500pi

BobPalma
12-30-2008, 04:00 PM
:) Andy: Your post about employment at Honda/Marysville is most interesting. I'm not questioning the accuracy, but from where were you able to gather that information? :DBP

Desert Explorer
12-30-2008, 04:54 PM
US car makes do surprsingly well overseas. I sure hope they all dont take a dive....... where are the next generation of vintage US cars going to come from?

PlainBrownR2
12-30-2008, 08:04 PM
quote:
US car makes do surprsingly well overseas. I sure hope they all dont take a dive....... where are the next generation of vintage US cars going to come from?


Semi easy answer to that. The Big 3 have alot of good stuff they manufacture overseas. In the last few years we end up getting the base model of some of models they produced. Remember the SHO program from Ford? In the latter years they were paired with Cosworth in the UK, who had a distinctive history in rallye programs. This seems to be a case of what Studebaker did in reverse, although a base model V8 is hard to quibble with.
Another example is Holden. Ahhh to see an El Camino type of vehicle return to these shores again with the Holden Ute. The Holden Monaro, er GTO was a decent vehicle that was well received on these shores, even though it looked closer to a Grand Am spinoff than a redesigned GTO.
In short it seems the Americans get the short end of the stick on the good stuff thats available worldwide, which is a real kick in the knickers [:(!}

[img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201950%202r5%20Studebaker%20Pickup%20with%20turbocharger/P1000137-1.jpg[/img=left][img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201950%202r5%20Studebaker%20Pickup%20with%20turbocharger/P1000145-1.jpg[/img=left][IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

8E45E
12-31-2008, 08:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by Desert Explorer

US car makes do surprsingly well overseas. I sure hope they all dont take a dive....... where are the next generation of vintage US cars going to come from?


Some from across the pond. US owned, but made elsewhere...

http://www.ford.co.uk/

Craig