'63 Convertible Body Tag

[lotsalarks]

Hi,all,
I've got a good '63 convertible builder, but I'm missing the body tag (63V-L8) and VIN tag. If anyone out there has one or both, pleeeaase let me know. This may be a car we can get ready for Cedar Rapids. Thanks much,

Will

PS - If you have matching title, let's talk...
PSS - Normally, I'm a purist and would prefer to have everything stock and clear, but it's not difficult to get a builder title in Colorado; this car is too nice to scrap, and I've got everything else to make it complete.


"The Common Sense Car"

[barnlark]

How about you check the rear crossmember to get the real serial number and go legally/ethically from there?

[lotsalarks]

quote:Originally posted by barnlark

How about you check the rear crossmember to get the real serial number and go legally/ethically from there?

I would if I had the original frame. The frame I have is from a '62. Again, this is a "builder," frame-up.

Will

"The Common Sense Car"


'61 Lark "Isabella"
'63 Lark "Lucy"
'63 Wagonaire "Carl"
A bunch of other Larks
'50 Starlight, '55 Speedster , '58 Packard Hardtop, '59 Pickup, '64 Avanti "Jerry"

[barnlark]

Sorry, you didn't mention the frame was different, too. "Builder" is a wide, grey area term. Not sure how that works down the road.. how does the next owner explain to, say, an over zealous State Highway Patrolman that knows where the X-frame's number is from their file book and it doesn't match the serial and body tags? Here that has to have a salvage title and hoops to jump through for theft inspections. I've seen a whole garage full of those cars still impounded awaiting a verdict. The new owners were pretty upset. How much trouble is it when you use tags from another car that shouldn't exist? Not familiar with Colorado's laws. If you're keeping it, I guess it doesn't matter. Glad you're saving it, I just wondered what a builder title from CO allows you to do.

[bams50]

quote:Originally posted by barnlark

"Builder" is a wide, grey area term. Not sure how that works down the road.. how does the next owner explain to, say, an over zealous State Highway Patrolman that knows where the X-frame's number is from their file book and it doesn't match the serial and body tags? Here that has to have a salvage title and hoops to jump through for theft inspections. I've seen a whole garage full of those cars still impounded awaiting a verdict. The new owners were pretty upset. How much trouble is it when you use tags from another car that shouldn't exist? Not familiar with Colorado's laws. If you're keeping it, I guess it doesn't matter. Glad you're saving it, I just wondered what a builder title from CO allows you to do.

All very, very good points- and questions. I asked this question last Summer, in this thread:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19482

I never worried much about it in the past, until the well-publicized case of the Mustang broke- read it here:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080321-9999-1m21mustang.html

I thought I had a handle on what I was going to do, but frankly have been hesitant; I can't imagine putting all that time and money into a car I bought as a shell, only to find it was stolen 40 years ago, and somebody could literally drive it off, including everything I put into it[V]

For mine I'm thinking the best way may be what Dave said- get the VIN off the rear crossmember (IF it's still there!) For yours, I don't know; read the thread in the link above.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[barnlark]

Great links, Bams. Yours was a different case, you owned the titles to all three cars and had the serial plates and body cowl tags. After reading that initial post by you, I wondered what you decided to do? I would have just gone with the original correct serial plates on the #1 core car, modify and graft away. That way, no one five or six buyers from now can claim it's an original, rare skytop, just a modified, optioned car with the purchase order's proof of what it was from the factory.

In this scenario (hypothetical), the problem would never be you as an honest builder, it would be a future seller way down the road. It could even be an unsuspecting estate sale after a family death one day. Theoretically it ends up on eBay as a rare body tag (101,1001 or JTS engine comes to mind) and someone spends big money on it, or any money really, that was spent on a cloned car. The future sale is always going to be out of someone's control. Someone could change tags to any car right now. All you can do is do it the honest way with documentation now. That seems honest if you own the tags and titles.

Using serial numbers and tags from just anywhere without a history search seems different.. and risky.

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by barnlark

Great links, Bams. Yours was a different case, you owned the titles to all three cars and had the serial plates and body cowl tags. After reading that initial post by you, I wondered what you decided to do? I would have just gone with the original correct serial plates on the #1 core car, modify and graft away. That way, no one five or six buyers from now can claim it's an original, rare skytop, just a modified, optioned car with the purchase order's proof of what it was from the factory.

In this scenario (hypothetical), the problem would never be you as an honest builder, it would be a future seller way down the road. It could even be an unsuspecting estate sale after a family death one day. Theoretically it ends up on eBay as a rare body tag (101,1001 or JTS engine comes to mind) and someone spends big money on it, or any money really, that was spent on a cloned car. The future sale is always going to be out of someone's control. Someone could change tags to any car right now. All you can do is do it the honest way with documentation now. That seems honest if you own the tags and titles.

Using serial numbers and tags from just anywhere without a history search seems different.. and risky.

I don't believe the only other alternative is to scrap the car.

Maybe lotsalarks can explain the Colorado "builder" law, but I would guess most states would have something like this.

I would think a lot of hot rods, maybe most rat rods, kit cars, and others that are built from parts from other cars and fabricated parts are titled under some sort of "builder" title with a VIN assigned by the state. Maybe you need receipts and/or an affidavit describing the source of the major parts.

I'd much rather see a '63 Convertible on the road with a salvage or builder title than scrapped. There must be a way.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

[IMG][/IMG]

[lotsalarks]

Thanks, guys, for the responses. Bams, I read your thread from last summer, and that's helpful. I'd just like to restore the car to keep---not to flip---but I do understand that I need to be up-front and try to do everything I can to make this right.

I bought the car from a Studebaker collector who simply had a bare-stripped shell, no tags. He got it from a guy who thought it took 6 or 7 cars to make one good one. I have no idea what happened to the original tags. [8] Maybe they ended up with a tag collector?

It's as solid as they come, I have plenty of parts, and I think it'd make a great builder. It'd be a shame to scrap it.

Will

"The Common Sense Car"


'61 Lark "Isabella"
'63 Lark "Lucy"
'63 Wagonaire "Carl"
A bunch of other Larks
'50 Starlight, '55 Speedster , '58 Packard Hardtop, '59 Pickup, '64 Avanti "Jerry"

[bams50]

quote:Originally posted by barnlark

Yours was a different case, you owned the titles to all three cars and had the serial plates and body cowl tags. That seems honest if you own the tags and titles.

Using serial numbers and tags from just anywhere without a history search seems different.. and risky.

You misread, Dave- the car I'm building has no title, no cowl tag, and the VIN tag is screwed on. Had I the titles and tags for it, there would never have been a question. See my quandry?

I went out this AM and tried to find the frame # on the rear crossmember. It only has light surface rust, so I took a piece of #400 sandpaper and polished it smooth. I even rubbed it with a wet finger, and found NO evidence of any numbers. So now I'm still concerned in light of the Mustang story. I have even considered not using this car and waiting for another solid 62 Daytona 2dr. HT 4-spd. body with correct title and tags- not something you see every day! But the thought of having to possibly give it away because it was stolen 20, 30, 40 years ago- however slight- is scary! Much less likely with a lowly Studebaker Lark, but as we've seen, it is possible[B)] Now's the time, when I'm only into it $500...

Chances are I'll decide I'm overreacting and forge ahead; but due to current conditions I've shelved this project indefinitely. In the meantime I'll keep thinking- and listening......

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[studegary]

All states are different, but I believe that a state issued VIN would be best in your case.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

[lotsalarks]

quote:Originally posted by studegary

All states are different, but I believe that a state issued VIN would be best in your case.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Thanks, Gary. That will probably be the route we need to go, but I will still need tags to go on the firewall and doorjamb before I apply for a VIN.

What we do to save a Stude, huh?

Will



"The Common Sense Car"


'61 Lark "Isabella"
'63 Lark "Lucy"
'63 Wagonaire "Carl"
A bunch of other Larks
'50 Starlight, '55 Speedster , '58 Packard Hardtop, '59 Pickup, '64 Avanti "Jerry"

[studegary]

quote:Originally posted by lotsalarks

quote:Originally posted by studegary

All states are different, but I believe that a state issued VIN would be best in your case.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Thanks, Gary. That will probably be the route we need to go, but I will still need tags to go on the firewall and doorjamb before I apply for a VIN.

What we do to save a Stude, huh?

Will

Not true in any state that I am aware of. For a state issued VIN, the state gives the vehicle a new VIN number and an ID to go on the car, usually a Mylar sticker. Most, if not all, states do not alow you to have more than one VIN on the car at the same time. This means that you do not need to locate a Serial Number plate for the car. Also, many cars do not have a Body Number plate, this is not required for ownership.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

[lotsalarks]

quote:Originally posted by studegary

quote:Originally posted by lotsalarks

quote:Originally posted by studegary

All states are different, but I believe that a state issued VIN would be best in your case.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Thanks, Gary. That will probably be the route we need to go, but I will still need tags to go on the firewall and doorjamb before I apply for a VIN.

What we do to save a Stude, huh?

Will

Not true in any state that I am aware of. For a state issued VIN, the state gives the vehicle a new VIN number and an ID to go on the car, usually a Mylar sticker. Most, if not all, states do not alow you to have more than one VIN on the car at the same time. This means that you do not need to locate a Serial Number plate for the car. Also, many cars do not have a Body Number plate, this is not required for ownership.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

There are several routes we can go with this to make the car legal. The first thing that needs to be done is to get a VIN tag and a body tag that I can use. Once that is done, then I can apply for a builder title, bonded title, etc. It may end up that the state will want to issue a new VIN. However, to make the car correct and complete, I would like to find an original VIN tag and body tag, if at all possible.

Will

"The Common Sense Car"


'61 Lark "Isabella"
'63 Lark "Lucy"
'63 Wagonaire "Carl"
A bunch of other Larks
'50 Starlight, '55 Speedster , '58 Packard Hardtop, '59 Pickup, '64 Avanti "Jerry"