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hank63
08-16-2006, 08:35 AM
Regardless of brand of classic car, some parts are harder to replace than others. Making new ones is often dependent on tooling costs.
Case in point - bumper bars. Seems to be an issue for many, and the tooling required to produce new ones is VERY EXPENSIVE.What happened to the dies used to produce the Stude b/bars? Did they go to the srap-metal man or did somebody save them?
/H

JDP
08-16-2006, 09:49 AM
The bumpers were made by Rockwell Standards bumper division where I worked for a few years and they scapped all the tooling. Good, used cores are so common, there is no need for reproductions that I know of.

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Arnold Md.
64 Daytona HT
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti R1/AC
63 Avanti R2/4 speed
62 Lark 2 door
62 GT(parts car)
60 Lark convert
60 Hawk
56 Power Hawk/4 speed/289
52 Starliner
51 Commander

Scott
08-16-2006, 11:04 AM
Hank,

It seems the original avanti body "bucks" have survived and reside in Minnesota. I know that some of the original Studebaker tooling for wheelcovers has survived, since I have seen new covers for sale that claim to be made on the original tooling. Of course, the tooling would have probably been in the control of Lyon, which made a lot of the wheelcovers. I'm sure that other tooling has survived here and there, but the vast majority of the tooling used would have been scrapped as a matter of course.

R2Andrea
08-16-2006, 12:07 PM
The Vast majority of production tooling has been lost over the years. Heres a few examples of the things I've not found:
289 crank forging dies; disposed of by 1966.
The forging dies for the R3/R4 connecting rods as well as the rest of the V8 and 6 cyl. rods
All pattern equipment for the engines were scrapped by the mid 60's with the exception of the OHV Champ 6. The patterns and core boxes for the head still exist but need reworking. All the core guageing and setting fixtures for these heads are missing and presumed lost.
Untill sometime in the 80's there was quite a few pieces of tooling sitting outside the south end of rhe Avanti Parts Corporation building (Building 69). There was forging dies for King Pins there as well as pattern equipment for bellhousings among the pile, along with a lot of unidentifiable tooling. Every thing was badly damaged from exposure and ended up being scrapped.
There was a lot of tooling lost(for lack of time/space/ID) when the Newman & Altman building was torn down. And a lot of tooling sold at the Avanti Motors auction in Youngstown was bought up for scrap, including the floorpan mold and the frame rail dies.
All the dash pad tooling scrapped in the early '90's. I missed this tooling by less than 1 month. And it included the 2nd set of Avanti interior tooling. By the late 80's/early 90's the set that Avanti Motors was junk, incomplete and unusuable.


R2Andy

hank63
08-17-2006, 02:54 AM
All these lost tools will make it harder to keep our Studes on the road in years to come.
Sooner or later available "parts cars" will dry up. It has happened to many others and will undoubtedly hit us too.
Sure, there are many clever people about, who can repair/reproduce a great many parts. But that comes at a cost, usually.
Scrap metal is bound to suck up more and more wrecks, as energy costs go up. And governments occasionally dust off the "cash for clunkers" concept (probably after some prodding from makers of new cars).
I have no plans to give up my classic cars, but I expect it will get harder and dearer as time goes by. And I certainly have no desire to shell out a big pile of money to own a modern plastic, electronic piece of junk.
/H

Roscomacaw
08-17-2006, 03:30 AM
yup, in the 24 years I've been in California, I've watched as one old junkyard after another has squished and shredded what Studes they had left for picking. Such resources are getting slim.[V]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

hank63
08-17-2006, 09:33 AM
Mr Biggs, you're absolutely right. I'm not sure what is the prime motivator, real estate prices or fear of legal hazzles. An awful lot of good parts cars get pressed and shipped to steel mills.
/H

garyash
08-17-2006, 10:10 AM
I have sometimes wondered if a proper additional role for SDC would be to coordinate the reproduction of key parts. Other clubs do this very successfully. It's partly complicated by the free market process - one of the vendors has an idea for a part reproduction, but doesn't want to let the other guys do it first. However, once repro parts do get into production, the guy who did it usually wholesales parts to all of the other Stude vendors.

Actually, this makes sense because the market isn't big enough to support multiple people reproducing the same part. I know that the smart vendors test the waters with the other guys to be sure that no one else is embarking on the same project. This could be the role for SDC - have a neutral, confidential way to register that you have a project in process so other vendors (and potential customers) could find out that something was in the works. There would have to be a time limit on the confidentiality of who was working on it, because many projects never get too far. It might also provide a way to connect interested buyers to the vendors to help get to the critical number of orders.

The piles of NOS parts that exist at SASCO, Stude International, and other vendors has spoiled Stude owners. In many cases, parts are cheap - and so are way too many Stude owners. I've reproduced a number of parts ranging from rubber to bumper guards (http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/guard_flyer_may06.pdf) to instrument marking decals for the M5. I'm prepared to do a bunch more, like brand new beds for M5 and M15 trucks or more bumper parts for other cars. But, I don't see a lot of people rushing to put up cash, either in advance (which helps a lot) or after the parts are available. The market for many Stude parts is very small and doesn't justify the cost of dies, etc. Unfortunately, one of the other problems is that Stude owners can't get their money out of a good restoration. A '57 Chevy draws $50,000 or more, yet few Studes can top $20,000 (1930's classic excepted).

I think the club can be more efficient at promoting this process and help Stude owners. Anyone want to volunteer to head this up? I suggest this as a conversation topic in Omaha. Wish I could be there!

[img=left]http://www.studegarage.com/images/gary_ash_m5_sm.jpg[/img=left] Gary Ash
Dartmouth, Mass.
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
web site at http://www.studegarage.com

Roscomacaw
08-17-2006, 12:00 PM
Hank,
I think it's a combination of things. The rising price of scrap metal (which has fluctuated thru the years) - the fact that most real junkyard OWNERS (the old time sort that owned one or two yards at the most and could do so without having to contend with a bureacratic nightmare of eco-driven red tape)have sold out LONG ago - and the fact that what passes for a wrecking yard operation nowdays is really just a part of a constant flow thru the shredders. Factor in that Studebakers probably never DID offer much income to yard operators (in no small part because the wealth of NOS parts kept folks from going to the yards to keep their Studes alive), so there wasn't much incentive to NOT crush and shred them, and you have a fast-track for demolished, part-bearing Studebakers.

Heh - Gary, you've hit it squarely that the relative value of Studes in general has helped to squelch any clamoring for parts repro. Of course, parts ARE repopped all the time - but not like they are for other makes.:( And Stude owners ARE notoriously cheap. Me included![:0] But those two facts are part of what keeps the marque alive. You've got to admit that.:) Whether one fact feeds the other or the overall "cheap" factor draws a certain personality, who's to say?
Once Studebaker's achieve equal footing value with " Muscle Cars", they'll lose ALOT of their appeal to me. I don't want to provide a path for a discussion to go nastily off-topic here, but incomes haven't kept pace with MOST "investor" vehicles. It's a rich man's dreams that Barrett-Jackson feeds off of. But as we've seen - right here, every day - there's still lowly Larks that someone on a budget can realistically own and love. And much of the consequent snobbery that goes with the high-priced crowd isn't to be found in SDC - yet.
That's why, with all this crying about how Stude values don't measure up to other American iron, I'm not shedding too many tears. If Studes DO start to run equally, THAT'S when I'll get misty-eyed. We might stop to think what things will be like if we get what we wish for.[}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

imported_n/a
08-18-2006, 05:26 PM
Here is what has happened here: At least 7 or 8 old, small salvage yards have closed in the last 7-8 years, and because of operating under grandfather clauses under a new zoning plan here, cannot be reopened as such. The big operators each have maybe just 2-3 acres, and deal in late model stuff. And now, there are 3 or 4 strictly crushing yards to which freelance wrecker drivers and individuals tow-in the older cars to sell for scrap, regardless of condition. I think only ONE of these is legally allowed to part out cars, due to the distinction in the zoning regs and city ordinances between "auto salvage" and "scrap metal recycling". So, thus is progress! Officials are aggressive in enforcing regulations against individuals letting old cars sit around. The days of an auto wrecker filling a 40 acre pasture with old cars and keeping them in inventory indefinitely are over, I guess. So, grab them parts and cars when and while you can, and hoard 'em. If you don't need it, someone else probably will someday.

Roscomacaw
08-21-2006, 02:02 PM
Where is "here", Wilbur?

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Scott
08-21-2006, 04:04 PM
Well, not quite. The wrecking yard in French Lake (near Annandale) Minnesota still has acres and acres of late model cars and trucks ranging from the 1930s (probably only a few) to the 1980s ans probably 1990s. I know they still had some Studebakers a year or two ago, but they were fairly well picked over. It's probably close to 40 or 50 acres. It's a big business with lots of employees and customers. They have tons of cars more than 30 years old.