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JimmieD
11-09-2008, 01:08 PM
Just read an old post on oil pressure and was reminded of some prior misery I'd like to warn you all about.

I needed to change oil & filter and in my small town there was only one filter available, a Fram. I normally won't use this garbage because their anti-backflow valve is cardboard which causes some great engine rattles & clatter at start up. I decided to use the Fram temporarily until I could get a WIX filter or NAPA Gold.

Noticed the box said, "Contains PTFE Teflon Protection" and thought maybe Fram had started cleaning up their act: NOT!

Before installing that junk filter I had 80+ lbs running pressure & 60 lbs idle in my 360-3 Premium block Mopar. Lowest pressure I would ever see was 75 lbs/55lbs.

After filter installation and refill with premium Valvoline 10W-40 the oil pressure dropped to 60-65 lbs running pressure, 30 lbs at idle! WHAT?!! I ran it for a couple of days and yanked it, drained oil hot, installed a WIX. Too late! That engine NEVER came back up for oil pressure and for the next 50K until I pulled it to install a Cummins it had lousy oil pressure.

No idea what kind of junkola chemical formula Fram calls PTFE Teflon but it put a real real hurt on my engine. Buyer beware....

jallen
11-10-2008, 09:43 PM
Many people would agree with you about fram filters, but many would
also say you don't need that much oil pressure, especially at idle.

JimmieD
11-10-2008, 10:10 PM
Oh, yes, normally, but it was a Premium block Mopar as 360-3 and they run at much higher pressure than the run of the mill engines. I just wanted to warn folks 'cause if it made that drastic a difference on mine then what happens to the guy or gal with 30lbs max and 15 at idle!??? Oh, noooooo!

rusty65
11-10-2008, 10:26 PM
I'm wondering, is this the standard orange Fram filter, or one of the (gold)Tough Guard filters?I use a Wix or K&N on the Stude, but I recently put a Fram ToughGuard on my daily driver rice.

JimmieD
11-10-2008, 10:33 PM
As I recall it was dark Orange but with a black end cap, sort of like a non-slip surface. Different from a plain everyday Fram.

Many don't realize that when their engine rattles on starup then quiets down the cause is the failure of the anti-back flow valve in the filter! Fram uses cardboard so that rattle is life as usual, leading to premature engine failure.

Startup is the most crucial time to have good lube protection and the Frams fail there completely, every single one, once the cardboard valve dies.

DEEPNHOCK
11-10-2008, 11:49 PM
I don't think the Stude filter (from Fram) has an anti-drainback valve in it....
What Fram p/n are you speaking of?
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by JimmieD

As I recall it was dark Orange but with a black end cap, sort of like a non-slip surface. Different from a plain everyday Fram.

Many don't realize that when their engine rattles on starup then quiets down the cause is the failure of the anti-back flow valve in the filter! Fram uses cardboard so that rattle is life as usual, leading to premature engine failure.

Startup is the most crucial time to have good lube protection and the Frams fail there completely, every single one, once the cardboard valve dies.

JimmieD
11-10-2008, 11:59 PM
All cannister type oil filters have an anti-drainback valve. All Fram do too, but there's is cardboard, not neoprene or rubber like a quality filter.

The valve holds a residual pressure in oil galleries so the engine oil pump doesn't have to pull oil all the way from the sump at startup. That's the plan anyway, but a disintegrated cardboard valve allows oil to drain back to sump. Lifter clatter [and worse with solids!!!] at startup is an indicator of anti-drainback valve problems. Scored lifters, bearings, cylinder bores and abusive wear on rings are the result.

DEEPNHOCK
11-11-2008, 12:21 AM
That is not altogether an accurate statement.
Most filters have a 'high pressure bypass valve', but not all have an 'anti drainback' valve.
If you want some quality filter information, give me a shout.
In this post you added 'cannister filter' to the mix which changes things a bit.
Not nitpicking, but wanting to keep things fact based, especially when it comes to filters, which are my livelyhood...
17 million filters a month mean a lot to me...
(And no.... it's NOT Fram, or Wix, or Purolator)...
Let's just try be accurate, ok?
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by JimmieD

All cannister type oil filters have an anti-drainback valve. All Fram do too, but there's is cardboard, not neoprene or rubber like a quality filter.

The valve holds a residual pressure in oil galleries so the engine oil pump doesn't have to pull oil all the way from the sump at startup. That's the plan anyway, but a disintegrated cardboard valve allows oil to drain back to sump. Lifter clatter [and worse with solids!!!] at startup is an indicator of anti-drainback valve problems. Scored lifters, bearings, cylinder bores and abusive wear on rings are the result.

gordr
11-11-2008, 12:34 AM
Why would you need an anti-drainback valve on a filter that hangs straight down, with the ports at the top? The oil ain't going to run out uphill. As far as maintaining pressure with the engine shut down, there's no way you could hold any pressure in the galleries, with all the bearings open to the oil pan on the other side.

Now, a filter mounted horizontally or at a shallow angle might need an anti-drainback valve.

And a Studebaker V8 has its pump IN the sump. It has to suck oil about 5 inches, and even if you sealed the pump outlet perfectly, the suction pipe is big enough that it would drain back to the pickup screen by reason of an air bubble rising up the suction pipe.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

JimmieD
11-11-2008, 01:01 PM
I did not print it out per se, but I would hope that any would understand the simple caveat: 'Where applicable'. Where it doesn't apply there's no problem. Where it does, there is.

Information is posted with the express intent of saving members & others who read this forum from doing needless damage to their engines.

I'm no Studebaker expert and as yet haven't even closely inspected my first to know oil filter orientation or oil galleries & circuits. On the engines that I am familiar with this presents a serious problem by potential of drastically shortening the life of the engine. I only offer the information, which can be verified at various websites, and as to one's decision regarding it that's certainly a personal thing.

.

JimmieD
11-11-2008, 01:47 PM
It seems that in the last 12-18 months that we have been publishing this info about Fram filters that they have upgraded some of their product with a rubber type valve. No idea if that's the entire line [highly doubtful] or if the filters out on the shelves today replace all the cardboard valve equipped filters after an unknown recall?

I choose not to take a chance: 'Once bitten, twice shy...'

Below is some further information regarding Fram filtration problems:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQH/is_6_49/ai_n16547364

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html

http://www.corolland.com/oil-filters.html

http://classicmotorsports.net/tech-tips/MG/4/

http://www.sadik.net/nissan/howto/oil_filter_study.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/307457/site_id/1

http://www.lesabret.com/filters/filter.html

drnittler
11-11-2008, 04:01 PM
I have had Fram fiters for years with no problem, as for Fram additatives (sp) I never used them. I've used Fram, Wix, Napa Gold, etc., with the same results. However my 6 cyliner engine is not a high preformer.

David G. Nittler

JimmieD
11-11-2008, 04:44 PM
What very easily and quickly convinced me that the gripes about Fram filters were true: I yanked the junk Fram that destroyed my oil pressure and put on a WIX Premium cannister. I then immediately had an engine that started up oh, so quietly instead of the clattering lifters and chaos of oil starvation I was used to with the Fram.

Also that engine was a first class rebuild when I installed it, all the best parts and built by a pro's pro, should have been good for 275-300,000 miles. Nope, it was ultra-tired at 150,000 miles and I replaced with a Cummins 4BT. I'm convinced I can thank Fram for shaving about 75,000-100,000 miles of the lifetime of that poor engine!