PDA

View Full Version : It takes a real man to cut one up



65cruiser
10-30-2008, 09:04 AM
Did anyone see the Q&A on this 56 Stude on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1956-studebaker-flighthawk-hot-rod_W0QQitemZ150304992420QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItem?hash= item150304992420&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1308&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

Q: Basicly, what you did is you ruined a really nice Studebaker. Oct-21-08
A: Any joe can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up.Besides, restoring this car to original would be a waste of money, the cars not worth the cost.

Nice enough car, although not exactly my cup of tea it's a nice piece of work. The Q&A gave me a chuckle though.:D




Mark Anderson
Member SDC and FMCA
Keeper of the Studebaker Cruiser Registry
www.65cruiser.com


http://www.65cruiser.com/images/studewordy.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
10-30-2008, 09:19 AM
Did anyone ask him about the rest of his parts?
Jeff[8D]



http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/1937CEBearfootingArtwithLabelgif-1.jpghttp://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/SDClogo4forum.jpghttp://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/StudebakerTruckFarmerStickerA-1.jpghttp://www.racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpg http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

fiftystarlightcoupe
10-30-2008, 09:27 AM
I wonder how much he spent on the car before the work. I don't understand why a restored car was required when so little of it was used. I would have looked for a "project" body instead. I guess on the bright side, there are some good parts available now.

DEEPNHOCK
10-30-2008, 09:33 AM
Not trying to sound elitist...
But if you have enough funding to buy out a collection, and have Morrison build you a chassis, and have a high end blown engine built for you....
Then you are not going to start with a rustbucket of a car to begin with.
That's something CASO's would do;)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by fiftystarlightcoupe

I wonder how much he spent on the car before the work. I don't understand why a restored car was required when so little of it was used. I would have looked for a "project" body instead. I guess on the bright side, there are some good parts available now.

4961Studebaker
10-30-2008, 09:42 AM
Also like to add.
Now not knowing if the ebay guy did all the work himself........most shops tell would be builder...errrrrr.....deep pocket customer to find the best example out there, cause it will save you money in the long run.

Depends, do you plan on reusing everything? Then its a potential waste, outside of selling all the little parts that may fund a tiny part of the project an incomplete car can be just as benificial.

Ok, off to the garage to work on Studes....CASO style for now.:)
Truck motor's at the machine shop now.

ChopStu
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/kkad0711/IMG_5406-1.jpg

barnlark
10-30-2008, 10:34 AM
"Any joe can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up."

Not sure about that front grill treatment. [V] but the whole effort was for something I would never be into anyway. I appreciate those who race them and build them to that extent, but that comment bugs me. Seems to me if he needed to butch up to prove himself he only succeeded in ponying one up... as in money, not cutting one up to improve upon the '56 design. I know, that wasn't the plan & I understand responding to a stock purist comment..(my guess is the purist is on here & used to a more sympathetic ear)..and the seller is right about it being worth more than a 6 cyl. stock Hawk, so I just hope he saved the original parts for someone. I see both sides of a project like that, (the old, it is his car argument) but wreaks of self indulgence to me now being pawned off to someone else after boredom. Then again, maybe I just have deep pockets envy.;)

Roscomacaw
10-30-2008, 12:05 PM
Dave, I agree with every one of your comments. Having worked in a Resto facility years ago (Resto - not Rod-o), it amazed my poor (literally poor) butt that we had so many customers that had little to no real sense of attachment with their money-slurping projects. Basically, they were just something to impress friends or some new (to them) venture (toy) to see if they might be able to get some sort of sensory perk out of it.
While I'll NEVER do a car on the level of JDPs Emerald GT, I'd only get limited jollies out of a turnkey Stude that my only involvement in had been writing checks.[B)]

This Hawk is another exercize in the "Mine's-bigger-than-yours" realm. <yawn>[|)]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

PackardV8
10-30-2008, 12:29 PM
FWIW, fifty years of watching the market says an equivalent home-built restoration of a car usually will recoup more of the investment than a hard-core modified or street rod. If the hot rod seller can get fifty cents on the dollar for the hard parts investment and nothing for his labor, he's doing about average. The reason is broad appeal. Every street rodder has an opinion of how it SHOULD have been done. Too much horsepower, not enough horsepower, ProStreet cars are so last century - ProTouring is where it is at today, nice custom, but I don't like the graphics, should have used air suspension . . . on and on. The restoration is what it was and the buyer either wants a re-creation of that make/model car or he doesn't.

thnx, jack vines



PackardV8

studeclunker
10-30-2008, 02:13 PM
quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

FWIW, fifty years of watching the market says an equivalent home-built restoration of a car usually will recoup more of the investment than a hard-core modified or street rod. If the hot rod seller can get fifty cents on the dollar for the hard parts investment and nothing for his labor, he's doing about average. The reason is broad appeal. Every street rodder has an opinion of how it SHOULD have been done. Too much horsepower, not enough horsepower, ProStreet cars are so last century - ProTouring is where it is at today, nice custom, but I don't like the graphics, should have used air suspension . . . on and on. The restoration is what it was and the buyer either wants a re-creation of that make/model car or he doesn't.

thnx, jack vines



PackardV8



quote:I see both sides of a project like that, (the old, it is his car argument) but wreaks of self indulgence to me now being pawned off to someone else after boredom.

I have to agree with most of what Jack said and completely with the snipped comment from Barnlark. Here's another spoiled rich boy chopping up a perfectly good car just for his own jollies. When he's done with the silly thing it can't even be driven on the road anymore! Doesn't make a decent racer, doesn't make a good drag car, doesn't make a good driver, it's worthless for anything but an ego ornament! Then he gets bored with it and wants everyone else to pay for his self-indulgence. Makes me sick.[xx(]

This wasn't the work of a 'real man', it was the work of a spoiled child![V]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/december%2006/HPIM0234.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/56%20Parkview%20Wagon/56wagonleftfrontclipped-1.jpg
Home of the famous Mr. Ed!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

Chris Pile
10-30-2008, 02:38 PM
I emailed him to ask about the reworked bodywork of the grille and front end, he replied that he had done it himself. If he actually had, I'm not sure I believe him, and since he hired it all done - whoever did do it made no improvements from stock.

Chris Pile
Midway Chapter SDC
The Studebaker Special

65cruiser
10-30-2008, 02:39 PM
This is the statement that bothered me the most:

I started with a fully restored 1956 studebaker Flight hawk. The man who restored the car was a Studebaker collector, who passed away. His collection, which consisted of over 40 restored vehicles, tons and pallets of NOS parts along with dealer signs etc was auctioned off, and I bought this gem.

You can't take 'em with you, but I'll bet whoever originally owned this car was a member of the SDC. It's just sad to think that someone spent the time to restore this car, then it was blown apart to become a rod with no real purpose.[V]

That begs the question, does anyone know who the "collector" was? I'm assuming since the car is in New England, it might not have gone far from home. Sombody ought to be able to recognize it as it's got a Packard Hawk toilet seat on the trunk lid.

Mark Anderson
Member SDC and FMCA
Keeper of the Studebaker Cruiser Registry
www.65cruiser.com


http://www.65cruiser.com/images/studewordy.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
10-30-2008, 03:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by barnlark

"Any joe can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up."

...but that comment bugs me.



Dave,

It DOESN'T bug you that it was a response to the statement that "Basicly, what you did is you ruined a really nice Studebaker" ?

YOU wouldn't be offended if someone came up to you at a meet and told you that you ruined a good Lark with the modifications you made to your red car?

It has happened to me at an SDC International Meet. I was offended, but not quick enough to have a snappy come back.

If I was the eBay lister, I probably would not even have posted the comment, but he might have been so offended that he felt he had to say something.

Not directed at you, Dave, and I've said this here (many times) before, but it really gets old hearing how there is only ONE way to enjoy the hobby...MY way. It's hurtful and divisive to those of us who can at least tolerate a variety of builds. It drives folks away from the forum who just might do something different with their Stude than what would be accepted by many here. The demeaning comments have often been read by the actual car owner which makes us all look silly at best.

It's fine to have preferences, likes, dislikes, favorites, etc. But comments like the following do nothing to encourage participation or to further the Studebaker hobby.

"It's just sad to think that someone spent the time to restore this car, then it was blown apart to become a rod with no real purpose."

"I'm not sure I believe him, and since he hired it all done - whoever did do it made no improvements"

"Here's another spoiled rich boy chopping up a perfectly good car just for his own jollies"

"This wasn't the work of a 'real man', it was the work of a spoiled child!"

"it's worthless for anything but an ego ornament!"

"Makes me sick"

"This Hawk is another exercize in the "Mine's-bigger-than-yours" realm"

"Seems to me if he needed to butch up to prove himself he only succeeded in ponying one up."



I'm not trying to be a moderator or to talk anyone into being "politically correct". People are going to post what they post. Most likely they wouldn't say the same things to the owner at a meet or even post comments like the above if they knew the owner was reading their words, but throwing rocks from behind a keyboard with a screen name seems to be good sport...very weak, but good sport.

I wonder what the rock throwers here REALLY think of the custom and modified cars owned by forum members.





Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/Stude-a-mino%20old%20pics/oldpics6asmall.jpg

JBOYLE
10-30-2008, 04:32 PM
Dick
I agree with you...we need to have an "big tent' and be open minded.
But
In the defense of those that took exception to the guy and what he did...let's remember:
--He's not an SDC member and won't see the comments...and judging by his attitude would'nt become a member if we gave it to him and made him mayor of South Bend.--The car was on ebay and [u]not</u> this forum.
--IMHO, the commentors here were showing him about the same level of disrespect he showed stock Studebaker owners by rubbing their nose in the fact he modified/butchered (take your pick :D) what he said was a nice car.

Because of those points...especially the first two, I don't have any heartburn about SDC members making comments about the guy.
It's the same way I might say something about a politician or actor while watching them at home on television. In person, I doubt if I'd say things to their face that I say in front of the TV.

When it comes to making comments about fellow SDC members and their cars, I'd expect a bit of tact and understanding.
Which this forum usually provides.
You don't call anybody's baby (or in this case Studebaker...whether it be stock/modified/or even an Avanti) ugly.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

dictator27
10-30-2008, 04:54 PM
Well said, Dick. I totally agree. Personally, I fall into the "leave it original" camp. (My 54 Commander K is totally devoid of options and it's staying that way.) Having said that, I am not going to knock a beautifully done custom. When someone puts a lot of thought, time, effort - and money - into something which is ultimately an expression of themself, I have to admire them for it. I may not like it, but I figure I have no say because it's not my car! It's the half-a**ed jobs that aggrannoy me.

Terry
PS The ute is cute.[^][8D]Sorry, couldn't resist!

bams50
10-30-2008, 05:11 PM
All you can do is try, Dick... over and over and over...[|)]

I can't believe anyone really thinks you should use tact- as long as they're an SDC member... if not, let's see if we can really hurt and alienate them[}:)] For what purpose?? I don't know how many MORE times we have to find out an owner's a lurker by being offensive and him feeling he has to come on and defend himself[V] Why this very simple concept is not only ignored, but draws arrows under the incorrect guise of being too PC defies explanation[xx(] I just hope this guy doesn't find this Forum and this thread:(

I keep thinking about a certain young member here who, upon seeing this surface the last time, said he didn't think he'd ever post about his own work again... and who could blame him?

I don't post this opinion because I want to start trouble, or anger some otherwise good folks; it is merely a signal to anyone new that not everyone is like this

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

[b]"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

JRoberts
10-30-2008, 05:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by bams50

All you can do is try, Dick... over and over and over...[|)]

I can't believe anyone really thinks you should use tact- as long as they're an SDC member... if not, let's see if we can really hurt and alienate them[}:)] For what purpose?? I don't know how many MORE times we have to find out an owner's a lurker by being offensive and him feeling he has to come on and defend himself[V] Why this very simple concept is not only ignored, but draws arrows under the incorrect guise of being too PC defies explanation[xx(] I just hope this guy doesn't find this Forum and this thread:(

I keep thinking about a certain young member here who, upon seeing this surface the last time, said he didn't think he'd ever post about his own work again... and who could blame him?

I don't post this opinion because I want to start trouble, or anger some otherwise good folks; it is merely a signal to anyone new that not everyone is like this

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

[b]"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"






Amen!

When will we ever learn?
A little common courtesy and tact should tell us to be nice. Even if the owner of this particular ebay Hawk is not lurking here, somebody else with a similar car might be. Why go out of our way to hurt somebody's feelings?

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

DEEPNHOCK
10-30-2008, 06:18 PM
That's as common a phrase in the street rod world as 'CASO' is used here.
Almost rises to the term 'Rat Rod';)
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by barnlark

"Any joe can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up."

JBody
10-30-2008, 06:42 PM
I love an occasional thread like this. It gives the board some character. Being absolutely nice and agreeing with each other does get boring. The "It takes a Man...." idiom supercedes the politically-incorrect "Hole In The Hood" catchphrase that has fueled much controversy in the past. First, I am going to dispense with the libertarian dogma that it is "his car, his money", cause I don't even want to be on the same roads with that car. It isn't roadworthy. My philosophy on the syndrome that has afflicted that guy is that he had too much money at his disposal, and it came easy to him, and he didn't know what else to do with it, and now he wants some of it back. I figure He also has a problem with being "Conventional" and considers himself to be a non-conformist as he obviously knows what he has done will annoy those with more mature tastes who truly appreciate Vintage cars; but the deal is, he is conforming to the norms of the other "non-conformists" who spend huge amounts on new big-name consumer items(morrison, etc.,etc.)in order to make impractical modifications to an old car. But, Try actually driving that thing anywhere! I have no problem with modifying a car to upgrade it, and make it safer, better looking, better handling, and able to keep up with traffic. But, I would bet money that I could easily beat that car across town through the city on a Friday afternooon with a cherry 259-powered 3speed with overdrive Hawk that had radial tires as its' only modification. I will grant you this: The guy does serve one useful purpose; He makes the rest of us look pretty sensible by comparison! Thanks.

65cruiser
10-30-2008, 06:43 PM
Have I been redirected to alt.autos.studebaker again?[}:)]

Mark Anderson
Member SDC and FMCA
Keeper of the Studebaker Cruiser Registry
www.65cruiser.com


http://www.65cruiser.com/images/studewordy.jpg

JBOYLE
10-30-2008, 06:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by bams50

All you can do is try, Dick... over and over and over...[|)]

I can't believe anyone really thinks you should use tact- as long as they're an SDC member... if not, let's see if we can really hurt and alienate them[}:)] For what purpose?? I don't know how many MORE times we have to find out an owner's a lurker by being offensive and him feeling he has to come on and defend himself[V] Why this very simple concept is not only ignored, but draws arrows under the incorrect guise of being too PC defies explanation[xx(] I just hope this guy doesn't find this Forum and this thread:(




I feel arrows pointed in my direction. :D
I'd ask you to read my first couple of statements.
Let me make it perfectly clear...or as least as clear as a Stude shop manual.
To repeat: Yes, we need to get along and welcome folks whose idea of automotive bliss may not jive with ours.

I'm not advocating going out of our way to insult the ebay guy or hurt his feelings...
but the [u]slight</u> risk of that...in my opinion...is [u]much less of an evil than limiting what SDC members should be allowed to say </u> on their [u]own</u> forum (that they pay for with their club dues). [}:)]

Again, my comments were based on the fact that he won't see the comments here...and judging by his attitude wouldn't become a SDC member if we gave it to him and made him mayor of South Bend.
To me, its fair comment if someone here doesn't like his car...especially since he seems to have taken so much pleasure in...what some here legitimately feel...was wrecking a sound Studebaker.
If he's a "real man" enough to cut up a car, he should be a real man enough to take some slight criticism...from guys he doen't know and will never meet and whose opinions won't effect him in any way. [}:)]
It's not like were going to send the stock Stude police to burn his house down. :D
Really.
Peace, chill, love. Amen.



63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

StudHawk60
10-30-2008, 06:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

That's as common a phrase in the street rod world as 'CASO' is used here.
Almost rises to the term 'Rat Rod';)
Jeff[8D]





OK, I give up trying to figure this out, what does "CASO" mean?

65cruiser
10-30-2008, 06:59 PM
Cheap A** Studebaker Owner.:D

Mark Anderson
Member SDC and FMCA
Keeper of the Studebaker Cruiser Registry
www.65cruiser.com


http://www.65cruiser.com/images/studewordy.jpg

Dick Steinkamp
10-30-2008, 08:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by 65cruiser

Have I been redirected to alt.autos.studebaker again?[}:)]



alt.autos.studebaker used to be THE place to go for Studebaker chat...then it took a couple of turns.

The biggest was the "vote" that anything goes....any topic. Many threads became political and hateful. Fortunately that isn't allowed here.

The second was that it became great sport to rip into others' cars. Stock, modified, it didn't matter. Whatever could be found and posted it was...purely to be ripped to shreds. This didn't do much for folks posting their cars that they were proud of, nor for positive comments since the "culture" was to rip.

alt.autos.studebaker used to have about 5,000 posts/month. The site will probably not make 100 posts this month.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.studebaker/about?hl=en

We can continue to post cars we find on eBay and other places, and rip them...and follow alt.autos.studebaker into extinction, OR we can demonstrate that we are better than alt.autos.studebaker (which I think we are).

We rationalize ripping into stockers we find on eBay as "a learning experience" (although no one has yet taken my offer of posting pictures of THEIR car so we can "learn" by pointing out all the flaws).

What possible rational reason can we give for ridiculing a non-stock Studebaker?

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/Stude-a-mino%20old%20pics/oldpics6asmall.jpg

gordr
10-30-2008, 08:54 PM
This is an awesome custom, certainly done to high standard. It's a pity he chose to cut up a restored original, seeing as nice, rust-free unrestored cars still show up pretty frequently. Had the builder of this car been better informed, he could simply could have watched this Forum, and within a year, he would have had s nice builder.

Having said that, though, he did cut up one of the lowliest Hawks on the food chain. Could have been worse.

And the finished car still looks like a Hawk. We have all seen customs that turned out way worse.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

JBody
10-30-2008, 08:55 PM
You've raised some interesting points, Dick. Let me first say that your Stude-o-mino project is a pretty nifty car, well within the parameters of a Studebaker That Can Actually Be Driven. This is a Studebaker Drivers' Club. Well, isn't it? So, rest easy. But, I don't figure that anyone is just nitpicking that EBay car, whereby the owner challenges our manhood unless we, like the shops he has paid $$$ to, irreversibly modify a nice antique car, and make it into a fairgrounds-only driver. There are only so many vintage cars left, and once they are gone, they are gone. We will be left with the plastic-filled IROCS in the future. I follow the hobby books quite a bit, and I can't think of a time in which a radically modified car like this was ever used as the starting point for a project for a more conservative, drive-anywhere type car. Not saying it has never happened; but it is an anomaly--most restorers(and I use that term in a really broad sense)want a car that hasn't been totally cut up already. I'm just saying that the philosophy "preserve it for posterity" makes more sense than that of "his car, his choice". I do agree: Let him make his choice, but let him deal with the consequences. If he is out looking for strokes, then he should be willing to deal with criticism, as well. That, is what guides the State Of The Art. Thanks.

BobGlasscock
10-30-2008, 08:59 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

[quote]
It's not like were going to send the stock Stude police to burn his house down. :D
Really.
Peace, chill, love. Amen.[/font=Arial][/blue]



63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State


Dang it John! I was already packed and ready to go!

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg

Flashback
10-30-2008, 09:03 PM
I can see both sides, the question is can
"each of you" do the same. I have "ruined"
a completely original 58 corvette, by installing
a 327-365 with a cross ram and 2-4's. O, by the
way, I had to cut up the hood. I lowered my first
53 Stude, and put on Chrysler wheels. I have built
57 chev's that took 6 parts cars to be sure it was
"correct". My current project's are a 53 coupe and
a 53 sedan. I have been collecting pieces for the
coupe for a year now. I want it "correct". The sedan
will be a butchered, lowered, police car look-alike.
My money, My cars. I don't give a rats behind what
anyone else thinks. But I am old with tough skin.
I really lean toward original, but I love hot rods.
To each, his own. When I was at the Georgia state
meet and was watching Matthew and others judging,
I heard several modified whiners, trying to explain
things like original AFB carbs on 53's. Remember if
you alter anything it's not original, it's just the
degree of modification I seem to hear complaints about.
Come on guys, not everyone likes an original car.

Tex E. Grier
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn320/Flashback53/Studebaker255.jpg

bob40
10-30-2008, 09:16 PM
And so it goes.
I'll let Dick supply the comments as I feel exactly the same way.
Plus he can do it without getting wound up like I get.
To rip anyone who paints outside the factory lines is a form of snobbery

BobPalma
10-30-2008, 09:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by Flashback

I can see both sides, the question is can
"each of you" do the same. I have "ruined"
a completely original 58 corvette, by installing
a 327-365 with a cross ram and 2-4's. O, by the
way, I had to cut up the hood. Tex E. Grier


[:0] Yowzers, Tex; you actually cut up a 1958 Corvette washboard hood? Wasn't that one year only? Did the Corvette Police do anything unnatural to you?;):D

(BTW; I got your M.O. for the magazine today. Thanks.) [8D]BP

JBOYLE
10-30-2008, 09:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by bob40
To rip anyone who paints outside the factory lines is a form of snobbery


On the contary, anyone who's enough of an artist to paint outside the lines expects that some folks won't "get it".
They know that not everyone will share their personal expression..whether in be in literature, music, art..or cars.

I'd imagine part of what drove the early rodders and customizers (or Kustomizers...in honor of my buddy George Barris) is that some guys (and especially parents) didn't get it. Same with the rat rods of today...an in your face antithesis to the Boyd Coddingtons of the world.

There is a world of difference between an SDC member saying he's not fond of a custom on ebay...and the worse case scenario of some club member going off on some young new member because he doesn't like his Lark...probably the best thing he can afford.


PS...And if you've ever been to an upscale gallery, there is plenty of snobbery the other way...just try going to some gallery and say how much you like art because you like Norman Rockwell...:D :D

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

JBOYLE
10-30-2008, 10:05 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
What possible rational reason can we give for ridiculing a non-stock Studebaker?


Let's see...
What's worse...giving opinions on a non-stock car
or
preventing club members from having their say on their own forum?

WWJD?*

*What would Jefferson do? :D

I respect the senior members of the forum a great deal. They were SDC members and rebuildng Studes when I was off driving Mustangs and playing with helicopters.
I just want you guys to know, I may not agree with the opinions of everyone here, but I'll always defend their right to voice them. :D




63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

4961Studebaker
10-30-2008, 10:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

There is a world of difference between an SDC member saying he's not fond of a custom on ebay...and the worse case scenario of some club member going off on some young new member because he doesn't like his Lark...probably the best thing he can afford.


Are you referring to the young guy with the black Daytona?/Cruiser? at Lancaster? If so thats a shame, cause I thought that was a beautiful car, and it seemed he was really enthusiastic from what others said about having a diffrent type car. If its someone else please clarify, (if you can) I don't always catch every post.

If I remember correctly he only posted in the Lancaster forum and that's been deleted. And I don't remember his screen name.
ChopStu
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/kkad0711/IMG_5406-1.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
10-30-2008, 10:25 PM
It really boils down to manners.
There are good manners, and there are bad manners, and there are no manners.
A personal choice not tolerated, and then spoken brazenly on a forum, says more about the person than the opinion offered.
One of my guidelines (personal guidelines, mind you) is to not say something that I would not repeat face to face, and over and over.
I'll leave it at that because the repeated resurrection of this particular mindset thread is embarrassing to me as being detrimental to what this club is all about.
It's about promoting Studebakers.
Not just the stock ones, or the pretty ones, or the nasty rusty rotten ones, or the (gasp) modified custom ones.
But all of them.
And all of the people that own them, love them, cherish them, and hack the crap out of them.
Why should one individual make an effort to blow the flame of enthusiasm out of another enthusiasts' candle?
There is no good reason.
(I self deleted a real nasty put down of that kind of mindset within this club because it serves no good purpose, but it condenses down to one word.... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _)
(E-mail me for the correct, and honest answer)
Lets just have fun with Stude's.
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
What possible rational reason can we give for ridiculing a non-stock Studebaker?


Let's see...
What's worse...giving opinions on a non-stock car
or
preventing club members from having their say on their own forum?

WWJD?*

*What would Jefferson do? :D

I respect the senior members of the forum a great deal. They were SDC members and rebuildng Studes when I was off driving Mustangs and playing with helicopters.
I just want you guys to know, I may not agree with the opinions of everyone here, but I'll always defend their right to voice them. :D




63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/1937CEBearfootingArtwithLabelgif-1.jpghttp://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/SDClogo4forum.jpghttp://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/StudebakerTruckFarmerStickerA-1.jpghttp://www.racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpg http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Dick Steinkamp
10-30-2008, 10:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

What would Jefferson do? :D



Jefferson was a real gentleman. I don't believe he would take a cheap shot just because he could.



Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/Stude-a-mino%20old%20pics/oldpics6asmall.jpg

DEEPNHOCK
10-30-2008, 10:46 PM
Well, you have an outspoken descendent of the Jefferson family right here on this forum.
While few here would call him a true gentleman, he wouldn't take a cheap shot (on this forum) unless it was really funny;)
Using Jefferson quotes is a good thing, but it raises the bar for those that use them, because now they are looked at to use them responsibly, and conduct themselves in a like manner.
That's harder than it sounds.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
Jefferson was a real gentleman. I don't believe he would take a cheap shot just because he could.


[quote]Originally posted by JBOYLE
What would Jefferson do? :D



http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/1937CEBearfootingArtwithLabelgif-1.jpghttp://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/SDClogo4forum.jpghttp://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/StudebakerTruckFarmerStickerA-1.jpghttp://www.racingstudebakers.com/avatar_01.jpg http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

bams50
10-30-2008, 10:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

is to not say something that I would not repeat face to face, and over and over.





EXACTLY. Simple concept.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

barnlark
10-31-2008, 12:27 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

Dave,
"It DOESN'T bug you that it was a response to the statement that "Basicly, what you did is you ruined a really nice Studebaker" ?

YOU wouldn't be offended if someone came up to you at a meet and told you that you ruined a good Lark with the modifications you made to your red car?"


Dick, I tried to cover the bases in my post if you re-read it. I understood why he responded to that comment..just sounded like an over testosteroned manner in which to respond. I think he wouldn't have had such a varied reaction here if he hadn't said he had taken a completely restored car, (low end or not) felt it was worthless as a Studebaker and now it's expendable after putting a blower in it..then he tried to defuse a stock Stude fan by taking a manhood stand. He's got to expect eye rolls. Both comments triggered this whole thread. Both tend to alienate both sides further. There would be laughs on a custom only forum over his comment..but this isn't it, though we have some very talented Stude caring cutomizers. Big difference.

There were level headed comments above (Jboyle,Biggs,Gord,Jeff, Bams, etc) covering every side. Being a rebuilding hack I want to make it clear I am in complete awe of the work I see documented here daily, custom and stock. Especially yours, Dick. It's a level of serious commitment either method of approach, but with a true passion for Studebakers. Most guys here truly love Studes and are amazing at the custom end of the marque. Lancaster proved all efforts exist impressively together.

I was in Division 8, mine's not stock, but Stude powered, and heard comments about everything, good and expert-type snobby. Can't let it bother me, it's a free country. My car is slightly modified with minor custom touches..I'm not worthy of running up the full custom flag, but I refuse to be over-sensitive about it anyway.

There is always going to be snobbery both ways until the cows come home. I don't want to be part of that, but still want to be able to voice an opinion. Believe me, it's not just on a keyboard. Anyone who knows me knows that only too well..more importantly I expect it back when I deserve it.

We all won't ever agree, but it's healthy to hear new thoughts. It's all thought provoking in a good way..usually.

clonelark
10-31-2008, 03:29 AM
Dang, i'm a CASO and didn't know it


Wagonmaster

JBOYLE
10-31-2008, 09:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by 4961Studebaker

Are you referring to the young guy with the black Daytona?/Cruiser? at Lancaster? If so thats a shame, cause I thought that was a beautiful car, and it seemed he was really enthusiastic from what others said about having a diffrent type car. If its someone else please clarify, (if you can) I don't always catch every post.



I wasn't referring to anyone in particular...I'm not familiar with the owner/car you mention.

I used it as as simple example...there is a huge difference between making a comment about a non-SDC member's modified Stude thats for sale for big bucks on ebay, than some sincere guy here just starting out in the hobby.
In the former, I don't see the harm in making [u]reasonable</u> comments about it.
The latter should receive more consideration because:
he is reading the comments,
is likely to become a member...if he isn't already,
and finally he's the type of guy who the future of this club relies on. Not on some customizerwho uses Studes simply as the raw materials for his next project that he'll build & flip. (Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that). :D

But a pro has got to expect comments about his work. The same way that we can truthfully say the Seattle Mariners stink, while not saying something nasty about a kids T-ball team.
Huge difference.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

4961Studebaker
10-31-2008, 10:05 AM
understood.....thought you might of had a real experience of a potential contributor here that said he was through participating cause of what was said. NOT THE CASE thats good.

oh, Seattle did stink this year, but my Royals are not far behind....better this year....but long drought of dismal loosing seasons. LOL :(

ChopStu
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q14/kkad0711/IMG_5406-1.jpg

Roscomacaw
10-31-2008, 12:06 PM
I'm with Jbody here. The car in question is (for all intent and purpose) barely roadable.

Dick talks about being irked when someone told him he'd ruined S2D (about the same way he's ruining the Stude-amino). But the balance-point - to my mind's eye - is whether or not what you end up with is a roadable car. It IS a car after all - and last I knew, most cars were conceived and built for driving.
Dick, your cars - the ones I've seen so far anyway - are built with an eye towards function. Whereas this "Fright Hawk" was basically built as some rich kid's high-dollar dose of smelling salts.

And AGAIN, I'll say it..... We agreed - when joining this forum - to abide by the guidelines of keeping to the topic of Studebakers. That agreement accepted, I'm NOT going to tread lightly (and spew only sweetened pablum) so as not to irritate some POSSIBLE future member. When DOES the concept of PC stop?[|)]
You have to wonder.... Does the Pope ever grumble or is he not allowed to have a bad day or a personal opinion?

BTW, if the next owner (or even the current one) of this car comes here and want's to join the fraternity, I'll keep my big keybored shut.[}:)]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

edit for typo

studeclunker
10-31-2008, 02:37 PM
I don't believe I have ever kept secret that I don't care for cars like the one which this thread is about. Doesn't matter which brand it is, the chances of this car being in the crusher before any largely original car is much greater. Dick, yours and the Stude-mino are not ever likely to draw much, or really any, criticism from me. They're beautiful. I'm not crazy about putting another brand, such as Chevy or Ford, beneath the hood, but understand the reasoning for doing so. Desparation has tempted me in that direction as well. Also my Champ has a hundred amp alternator under the hood. I don't think those were offered stock, were they?;)

This kind of custom (such as the OP) has always drawn a yawn from me. One might as well attach a neon sign on the roof that crys out, "arrest me," in big red letters. Nevertheless, I do ascribe to the, "it's his car let him do what he wants," philosophy. Be aware though, if he asks my opinion, most the time I'll just smile and demur comment. If he pushes, I'll ask him what kind of drugs he's on or whether stupidity has always run in his family.[:o)]

Then again, I don't do the carshow thing anyway. Never have. I like the club meets and the local classic car night thing, but the car shows? I'd rather attend and admire the work of others than bother with cleaning out my underchassis and detailing the car to spotless condition. I'm just too lazy (LOL)![:I]

By the by, the car topped out at over twenty-three thousand and STILL didn't meet reserve. Probably not half what he put into it. Perhaps he might learn that the car was his dream only.

Fright Hawk[?] Good one, Mr. Biggs!:D

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/december%2006/HPIM0234.jpg http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b18/Studeclunker/56%20Parkview%20Wagon/56wagonleftfrontclipped-1.jpg
Home of the famous Mr. Ed!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith
Where the heck is Lewiston, CA?

kurtruk
10-31-2008, 03:06 PM
I prefer stock, but enjoy a well done custom. But hardly roadable
machines don't make much sense to me. That comes from not having much money--if you're gonna sink bucks into something, hopefully you end up with something useful.

Here's some food for thought:

He bought the car at auction. Apparently he paid more than anyone else thought it was worth.[:p]

His Ebay descripion says it was a fully restored car.. Yet, his response to the question "you ruined a good Stude..." says it would "be a waste of money to restore this car to original. Its not worth the cost." Hmm. Confusing.
O.K. Is the car now worth the money the present owner sunk into it[?][?][?] IT DID NOT MEET RESERVE. It is said here "The car is worth whatever someone is willing to payfor it." Unless he hoped to make a nice profit on this car...I'm going to guess it is not worth the cost the present owner put into it. Let's see: Complete custom frame, chassis, interior, etc., with someone else doing much of the work. $$$ Uh, I'm going to guess that motor is kinda expensive. And we all have an idea what paint costs these days.


from Mr. Biggs:
" whether or not what you end up with is a roadable car. It IS a car after all - and last I knew, most cars were conceived and built for driving."

OTOH: Would a 395+ point restored car be driven much more than this barely roadable high dollar custom.[?] Don't most of the high dollar restorations end up getting parked in the garage and get brought out only for shows a few times a year, because owners are afraid of "messing up" their restoration?
(Yes, I know Bob, you were not advocating 395 point cars with that statement. YOU are the one that convinced me that a car doesn't have to be Concours-quality--just drive it and enjoy it.)


KURTRUK
(read it backwards)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/2617723594_889afb71cf_t.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2412/2267352617_720245049a_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/2679715309_563ea85e42_m.jpg

bob40
10-31-2008, 04:00 PM
Kurt brings up a good point about high point cars.Hadnt thought of that angle.
I'm not sure where the idea of not roadworthy comes into play.Modern brakes
and steering,adjustable suspension et al.These types of vehicles go on the
Hot Rod Power Tour and other various cross country jaunts.If it only goes to
local cruise in and shows is it that much different than a Studebaker that
never leaves a 50 mile radius?
The comments about it being owned by a rich kid/person is a bit over the top in my eyes.
I can give the numbers to those who really want to know of a guy who drives a
semi for McDonalds that dropped $40K into a Dart that runs low 10 second passes
at the drag strip and is street driven most every weekend.A buddy who worked at a body
shop somehow managed to find $45K to build a pro-street Roadrunner that is street
driven and runs mid 10's.I personally socked $30K into a '55 Chevy back in the 90's.
All I do is frame art and jockey parts and cars.All 3 cars took 5-8 years to build.
If a person wants to build something they will find a way to do so.It isnt about
being rich.It's about wanting something bad enough to stay the course and finish
it.Divide 30K by 5 and thats 6K a year.There are plenty of ways to come up
with that...IF you really want to.How many Stude folks are working on 4-8 year
projects trying to build their perfect car? Any type of restoration or even buying
a done car can be achieved without being rich if there is a plan.BTW..got 90%
of the money back on the Chevy which I will admit is higher than average.

[edited for spelling]

Roscomacaw
10-31-2008, 05:33 PM
Well Bob, there's anecdotal evidence for just about any scenario (outside of science fiction) that we can think up.
Visalia's in the very heart of American Graffiti land and there's PLENTY of "Mine's-bigger-than-yours" cars (like this Hawk) in this area. I can honestly state that in the 19 years we've lived here, I've never seen a hole-in-the-hood car in daily traffic. Not once.

IF you see one or especially two or three on a weekend, you can BET there was a local car show that brought them out.

Can you imagine pressing that Hawk into daily service if your Mercedes was in the shop?[:o)]

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

bob40
10-31-2008, 06:04 PM
Never said that any of the cars were driven daily.Just weekend hobby cars
like a lot of other brands including those of the Studebaker persuasion.
There have been threads about just how many Studebakers are used as daily
drivers and the percentages go up depending upon location.The larger percentage
of SDC cars/trucks (based on threads here and local chapter members) are weekend
enjoyment vehicles.Where is this Hawk different? Events to attend may differ
but the purpose is the same.Show off the ride and enjoy hanging out with people.

Tom
10-31-2008, 08:22 PM
Basically, I am tired of folks who cannot spell or use proper grammar. It seems to be a chronic problem these days on message boards, forums, etc.

"Q: Basicly [sic], what you did is you ruined a really nice Studebaker. Oct-21-08
A: Any joe can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up.Besides, restoring this car to original would be a waste of money, the cars [sic] not worth the cost."

55s
10-31-2008, 08:39 PM
I just have to make some comments on this one.

(1) I don't really like it whan somebody beats up on a person or car. If you don't like it, then just don't say anything. There is always something positive about everything.

(2) Seems to be a big clash of Penis Envy, $, CASOs, purists & modifiers. Everybody has an opinion. Our club accepts anybody, even people without cars. Criticizing people's cars is a sure way to ensure that they don't join, or don't rejoin. There is room for everyone, and no need to argue. We only have different opinions.

(3) Anybody who puts out the money to buy a car can do whatever they please with it. Sometimes the result doesn't please other people; if so, they should have bought the car.

(4) Stock or modified: When a person puts a lot of money into something, there is never a guarantee that they will get it all out. That is a life lesson. This can happen even on a stock restoration.

(5) I've seen many projects end up in boxes that nobody can sort out. This person followed through until completion, something many members could learn from - if they choose to spend the money and or have the savvy.

(6) There was a cheap comment about the appearance of a "toilet seat" on the back of the trunk. Again, this is personal opinion. Some people like fins, some like chrome, some like flash. The simulated continental kit on a Packard Hawk adds flash as does the leather interior, the outside arm rests, the streamlined front. The Packard Hawk is a very nice car - the base as you know, is a Golden Hawk.

If someone doesn't like my Packard Hawk's butt, they can kiss my ...

Paul

ITZAS2D
10-31-2008, 09:47 PM
To each his/her own art.

While we are at it should we piss on the so-called Studebaker diehards who dress up their cars with extra chrome, re-do the interior in a non-stock material/pattern, chrome air cleaner, non stock wheels, non stock exterior color, some cheap Pep Boys mirrors and claim it as a 'Studebaker'. Some could say they are cheaped-up riuned Studebakers as well. These cars protray an image that the cars at more modern then they were and a newbe wonders why they did not stay in business. Lets call these people crazy owners.

Then there are the ones who drop a small block in a studebaker which never came with a chevy. Crazy, non studebaker worthy person?

Some Studebakers get a quality paint job whether stock color or not, at a body shop and the price of the paint job is more than the value of many Studebakers in great shape. Is this person crazy for spending too much money for the value of the car?

While we are at it, when is too much money being spent on a car? When someone spends more then the reader could afford and they get jealous? When will people start complaining about the beautiful 64 green Hawk as having too much money spent on the retoration and the owner is crazy?

Should we complain about people driving around in typical Studebaker rust buckets and primered run-down condition cars that give the image that Studebakers are cheap crap and no wonder they went out of business?

When the modified Bodd C Lincoln Zepher sold at Scottsdale a few years back for 3 million, do you think he looked for a complete rust bucket to start with? Lets call him a waste full crazy person, not to mention most buyers at BJ.

What about those wasted parts on those non stock studebakers, sure could use them for a pure original car.......Maybe there could be a law that these parts/cars could be confiscated????

Lets face it how 'rare' was that restored Hawk, was it really a crime? How many cars have been found/listed as 'restored' and the original owner had a 60,000 mile worn car repainted and called it a day?

To each his/her own.

ST2DE5
10-31-2008, 10:32 PM
I THINK MR. SHAW OUGHT TO PUT A BIG LOCK ON THIS THREAD. IT IS GETTING STUPID.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/51stude/OzarkTtrailLogoSmall.jpg
7G-Q1 49 2R12 10G-F5 56B-D4 56B-F2
As soon as you find a product you like they will stop making it.

ITZAS2D
10-31-2008, 10:41 PM
AMEN, to each his own.

ChampTrucking
11-01-2008, 07:38 AM
Are "The Stock Studebaker Police" like the "Clique Mob"???!!!???!!

bams50
11-01-2008, 07:45 AM
You'll find out pretty quick if they dead you and all you people families- they already see you house were you live with the table and window... so don't mess around:D

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

BShaw
11-01-2008, 08:16 AM
C'mon, folks. It's time to move on. This has been discussed time and again with the same result: No consensus and damaged relationships.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/StudeRobert/muppetstudebaker.gif

BShaw, Webmaster

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/images/StudeDriveLogo_small.jpg
webmaster@studebakerdriversclub.com
Woodbury, Minnesota

barnlark
11-01-2008, 10:16 AM
quote:Originally posted by 55s
(1) I don't really like it whan somebody beats up on a person or car. If you don't like it, then just don't say anything. There is always something positive about everything.

If someone doesn't like my Packard Hawk's butt, they can kiss my ...
Paul


I had to chuckle, Paul, your post came full circle to your own number one! [:o)] Now that everyone is done getting themselves worked up in a lather, yes, by Mr. Shaw's urging, may it again go to rest. The lesson learned: Don't post stupid stuff in your, or anyone else's Ebay listing..it can change the behavior of a normally peaceful society. :D

Hippie
11-02-2008, 07:53 PM
Mom always said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." It's worked for me so far.

Analog man in a digital world.

JBOYLE
11-02-2008, 08:31 PM
I love tact and politeness (especially as the owner of an Avanti, the design of which is frequently commented on...not always positively...here :D) as club members, we need to get along.
And our (usually plaything) cars aren't worth losing friends over.

But again, commenting on a car for sale on eBay car seems fairly harmless.
Certainly no worse than what car magazines do weekly (and occasionally, weakly).
Sports Car Market comments about hundreds of cars (the great, the average, the "fright pig") they see monthy at high-end collector car auctions.
If you're trying to sell a car...especially a custom like our eBay friend...you've got to expect not everyone is going to share your taste.

The comments of a few guys who he doesn't know from a club he may not know even exists, isn't harming him in any appreciable way.

But, yes, we need to make nice.



63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

JBody
11-02-2008, 11:03 PM
Oh, Okay: Nice All The Time. How 'bout this scenario: Old Geezer(like us)at car meet says to recent lottery winner who spent $1,000,000 to have Pro-Sreet car built: "Nice 56J YOu have there! I just love the color!(purple and green with brown and silver flames). "I just ADORE the blown nitrous 982 Ratt motor that you have very cleverly mounted in the former back seat area." and: "Y'know, young feller: you are to be commended for your savvy in buying a very low-mileage California car to chop up for your project-I think I'll Will you MY Studebaker, so you can cut it up, too!" End of Scenario. Is that NICE enough? Oh, yes; I realize that they feed upon your disgust, so it may not pay to let it bug you, but they will pay, in the long run.