Announcement

**Mike Van Veghten** · 10-22-2008, 11:04 AM

Because of the lack of power...the one in my Conestoga, the gas pedal is on the floor most of the time!

Between shifts, getting on the freeway, much of an incline on the freeway. I even had a little trouble with the overdrive a while back...the pedal was on or very near the floor just keeping up with traffic.

Never figured out the actual RPM. Figured if it held together great, if not, I'd have to work faster on the 299 going into it.
BUT...since the 299's not moving very fast itself....the current flat head seems to be fine.

Just like a 60 Rambler I had. The "Grape Vine has been memorialized in a few songs...I drove that Rambler American from north to the south...foot denting the floor board for the entire trip up the Grape Vine Hill.
Didn't hurt a thing.

They'll only go just so many RPM's..!

What damage does the block have?

Mike

**Ron Dame** · 10-22-2008, 11:36 AM

my current OHV6 runs out of breath at about 4,000 RPM, but I think that's the fault of the carb. I wouldn't think more than 5500 or so with the 185 crank...4 3/8" is a loooong stroke.

Ron Dame
'63 Champ

**bams50** · 10-22-2008, 12:30 PM

Paul, I've deferred to those with more knowledge than me thus far; but I want to add my two cents...

If it were me, no way would I be comfortable reusing that block! It's not a particularly rare or valuable piece, so why take the risk?? You're paying the money to go through the thing anyway- why risk a block that already has a brazed cap and possibly bent, or even cracked, crank- and who knows what else?? Imagine spending that money, and effort, and wait time, then going through the work to install it, set everything up, getting it going, correcting the bugs that come up, and taking it out to drive- after the oil, coolant, and everything else spent- and finding you have an internal problem that will prevent usage in spite of all the effort... and having to pay to do it all over again

[V]

I say, take the extra time and money now to get another block and crank; start from there and do it right. You'll be a lot more comfortable in the long run, as opposed to wondering if you're driving a ticking time bomb...

At least, that's the only way I could do it.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

**DilloCrafter** · 10-22-2008, 12:46 PM

Robert,
You're probably right. I have a certain comfort factor with my mechanic, but a big "discomfort factor" with the block. In the end, I suspect I'll either have to remove the original motor that still sits in the truck, and machine it as needed, or obtain a used one (a couple of folks here are working with me toward that possibility).

This "professional rebuild" fiasco was such an expensive lesson for me (over $3000), it really set me back - even more in terms of morale and enthusiasm for the truck than in terms of money.

[img=left]http://simps.us/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]
Paul Simpson
"DilloCrafter"

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

**bams50** · 10-22-2008, 01:15 PM

quote:Originally posted by DilloCrafter

This "professional rebuild" fiasco was such an expensive lesson for me (over $3000), it really set me back - even more in terms of morale and enthusiasm for the truck than in terms of money.

I can absolutely identify with that; I suspect that's why you're even considering reusing to save a few bucks. But think of this: If you bite the bullet now, as time goes on and you're using and enjoying the truck, and it's running well and giving good service, the pain will lessen until it's merely a dot in your rear-view mirror

I was sorry to hear about this whole drama when it happened. Just remember, you're not the first, or the last; and it could have been worse. Hope you get it done right, get it in, and start driving... see it through, even if you have to push yourself- in the end you'll be glad you did![^]

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

**8E12T6** · 10-22-2008, 06:45 PM

I think that I once read that the US Army did test looking for the best 6 cyl engine available and it came out to be the Stude 170. IIRC, they ran the test engines WOT until they blew. All the others blew and the Stude just kept on running and running and etc. Someone chime in and correct me if I'm wrong on this. Anyway, my Dad's 52 1/2 ton w/the Champ engine, 3 speed w/OD would run about 67 mph in 2d OD for miles and miles and miles. Don't ask me how I know. Never did blow up; outlasted the truck and was sold to put in a 51 Champion convertible. If the engine is in good mechanical condition, don't worry about the abuse, it will take it and then some. Just my experience.[}

]

pwbrown

**mbstude** · 10-22-2008, 07:31 PM

So sorry to hear about all the trouble, Paul. I had high hopes of you driving the truck this year! [

)] But no worries, I know it'll be on the road in due time. Even though a small fortune has been invested, I'd find another block. Ron Dame got his Clover Leaf OHV truck block from us, and it seems to be working out pretty well for him. Many times people give these motors away, I'm certain you can find one close to you. I doubt you'd want to pay shipping from GA.

pwbrown, I remember that article too.

Those Champs are pretty darn tough little motors. I've given the one in my truck all sorts of abuse in the 10K miles I've put on the clock. It had a shadetree overhaul in the 70's, then sat for 20 years. Other than that, it's just been worked hard. It may have no oil pressure, and also no power, but it's never smoked and always starts and does the job.

The engine in our '51 Champion has never been out of the car. Back in the '80's, a piston came apart with it idling in the yard. My granddad pulled the head and oil pan, with the engine in the car, and installed a used piston. To this day, that engine has never gave any more problems. Always starts on the first try and runs as smooth as can be, and runs 70 MPH down the highway with no trouble. The car even made the cover of Turning Wheels earlier this year.

Those Champions are unbeatable. Even if they are powerless in stock form.

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA

**Ron Dame** · 10-23-2008, 02:41 PM

Having a machinist you are happy with means a WHOLE lot. MBStude has mentioned I got a block from he and his grandpa, because my original machinist screwed up my first block.

I also really question the integrity of your block. It seems stout, but so does a crank and a main cap...and they broke! If you really want to use this block, check the web around that broken cap for cracks, get a new cap and have it align bored. In the long run, it may be cheaper to rebuild what you have with the new innards out of the damaged engine. The price very well may be the same! Worst case, wait for the "Studebaker Express" to find a way to get that Alabama engine to you, build it, so you can keep driving until the new engine is ready.

quote:Originally posted by DilloCrafter

Robert,
You're probably right. I have a certain comfort factor with my mechanic, but a big "discomfort factor" with the block. In the end, I suspect I'll either have to remove the original motor that still sits in the truck, and machine it as needed, or obtain a used one (a couple of folks here are working with me toward that possibility).

This "professional rebuild" fiasco was such an expensive lesson for me (over $3000), it really set me back - even more in terms of morale and enthusiasm for the truck than in terms of money.

[img=left]http://simps.us/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]
Paul Simpson
"DilloCrafter"

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

Ron Dame
'63 Champ

**S2DSteve** · 10-23-2008, 09:12 PM

I don't know about the redline, but the "sweet spot" for highway cruising on my 170 Champion seems to be around 2500 rpm, and I typically run it up to 3000 rpm going through the gears.

It does have a lot of Cathcart goodies (cam, dual carbs, split exhaust etc.) and a 5 speed, so that may not apply to a stock engine.

Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually (workhorse)
1953 Commander Convertible (show & go)
1953 Champion Starliner (custom/rod project)
1954 Champion Coupe (daily driver)
1960 Hawk (future project?)

**PackardV8** · 10-24-2008, 08:34 AM

FWIW, the Champion makes peak horsepower at 4,000. I routinely wound mine to 4,500 RPMs. It makes a heckuva racket, but it is the only way to keep up with traffic in a Flight Hawk. Peak torque is at 2,400, so that is where the high cruise RPM should be. Shift at around 3,000 for normal driving.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

**Chucks Stude** · 10-24-2008, 08:55 AM

FWIW, I used to have a 54 Conestoga wagon, that was the delivery truck for a pharmacy in Dallas. Had 350,000 miles on it. It had a 4.10 rear end, 14 inch tires, a three speed with OD. Only prob was that the OD was burned out. We used to drive it on the highway all the time at 70 to 75 mph, no telling how many RPM that thing was turning. Wish I still had it!!!

**STEWDI** · 10-24-2008, 08:16 PM

I had a conversation a while ago with Bill Cathcart and we touched on the RPM subject. Bill is of the opinion that the Champion engine is capable of sustained cruise RPM of about 2800. That is in the same "sweet spot" territory mentioned by S2DSteve. My experience also.
Blow-apart RPM? I dunno.

Roger "153624" Hill

55 Champion
47 M-5
Izzer Buggy
Junior Wagon

**PackardV8** · 10-25-2008, 08:34 AM

FWIW, it makes a huge difference whether we are discussing the 170" with a 4" stroke or a 185" with the 4.375" stroke. The 170" is much smoother and can go to 5,000 RPMs. Taking a 185" past 4,500 RPMs is a risky venture.

thnx, jack vines.

PackardV8

**DEEPNHOCK** · 10-25-2008, 01:54 PM

Put old, used CASO valvesprings on it (and keep that used 1bbl carb on it) and you will never be able to spin it over too fast for the rods[}][]
Jeff[8D]

http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Announcement

Max RPMs for a Champion Six

Max RPMs for a Champion Six

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