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studeclunker
11-18-2006, 03:48 AM
I have a 259 that I purchased from Lionel Stone about three years ago. It was supposed to have been entirely rebuilt. He kept going on about how sweet a motor it was. My mechanic thinks that they did a very poor job. He says that it looks like the pistons and bearings were replaced. Still, the engine could have been properly cleaned out. The oil came out black after running it ten minutes the first time. Not a good sign.

I put it in my '64 wagon and drove it for two years. The car gave me so much trouble that I gave up on it and pulled the engine. Other than the balance wheel being 25 degrees off, and the engine being rather gutless, it has performed adequately. It is currently in my '62 Champ. The engine hasn't run for a year. I transferred the starter with the motor. The only thing I changed was the bellhousing because the truck's is different.

Ok, enough background.

Presently, the engine won't start. Now I can't even get the motor to turn over. I used to be able to turn it over with the fan in the wagon. Now I can't. Is it possible that the motor froze up on me? I mean, really... after only two thousand miles (possibly less)?

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Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

DEEPNHOCK
11-18-2006, 07:34 AM
Balance wheel?
25 degree's?
Where'd that number come from?
Hard to understand that.
If it (the vibration dampner) were installed wrong, it would be off 60 degree's (and the rubber isolator would be morked).
Ron, A lot of things can make an engine act strange, or even lock up.
Did you contact LS?
That is the first place to start.
Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

I have a 259 that I purchased from Lionel Stone about three years ago. It was supposed to have been entirely rebuilt. He kept going on about how sweet a motor it was. My mechanic thinks that they did a very poor job. He says that it looks like the pistons and bearings were replaced. Still, the engine could have been properly cleaned out. The oil came out black after running it ten minutes the first time. Not a good sign.

I put it in my '64 wagon and drove it for two years. The car gave me so much trouble that I gave up on it and pulled the engine. Other than the balance wheel being 25 degrees off, and the engine being rather gutless, it has performed adequately. It is currently in my '62 Champ. The engine hasn't run for a year. I transferred the starter with the motor. The only thing I changed was the bellhousing because the truck's is different.
Ok, enough background.
Presently, the engine won't start. Now I can't even get the motor to turn over. I used to be able to turn it over with the fan in the wagon. Now I can't. Is it possible that the motor froze up on me? I mean, really... after only two thousand miles (possibly less)?
Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith


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DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
Brooklet, Georgia
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
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Guido
11-18-2006, 10:07 AM
quote:Originally posted by n/a
Oh, Is it? Last evening, I posted a topic about someone who had taken my money and never sent my parts, and I was flamed by Dick Steinkamp, Deepenhock, Bams, Guido, and several others. Just attacked for stating the simple fact that I had bought and paid for some parts and never gotten them, even though the buyer has acknowledged getting the money as of several weeks ago. But, I was attacked for saying this by these various posters. Then Shaw comes along and BLAMES ME for the whole situation.
Packebaker; Cruiser; n/a, etc.

I think the issue is not whether you feel that you have a gripe with a "vendor", but the manner in which you handled it and continue to do so. If your post had been limited to factual information about the transaction, the steps that you had taken to resolve it and the ultimate outcome, I think that it would have passed muster.

However, it appears that your agenda is something more than just passing information on about a poor experience you may have had with a "vendor" and now is simply attacks at other forum members. If you have an issue with me do the proper thing and contact me off forum and we can get it resolved. You can reach me at guidosalvage@bizland.com.

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/53/453/1/21/36/2964121360097493054pVJTFL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/57/757/2/88/4/2023288040097493054SEKowB_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/18/19/8/37/21/2050837210097493054IYBJJL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/559/1/43/57/2876143570097493054jKVhDw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/22/22/0/2/68/2589002680097493054ftBuBw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/8/30/30/2075830300097493054aSSlFv_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/459/2/23/86/2067223860097493054YoeGMx_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/5/18/33/2537518330097493054OgEKcN_th.jpg
Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

Studebaker horse drawn buggy; 1946 M-16 fire truck; 1948 M-16 grain truck; 1949 2R16A grain truck; 1949 2R17A fire truck; 1950 2R5 pickup; 1952 2R17A grain truck; 1952 Packard 200 4 door; 1955 E-38 grain truck; 1957 3E-40 flatbed; 1961 6E-28 grain truck; 1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck; 1962 7E-7 Champ pickup; 1962 GT Hawk 4 speed; 1963 8E-28 flatbed; 1964 Avanti R2 4 speed; 1964 Cruiser and various other "treasures".

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

studeclunker
11-18-2006, 11:35 AM
Jeff, I mentioned Lionel Stone as a referrence to the origin of the engine. The balance wheel is off 1/4 turn of the full radius of the wheel. When timing the car that's how far from the timing marks I have to set it to get the car to run right. So I can but assume the wheel is off by 25% or 25 degrees.

I don't recall saying anything Derragatory about Mr. Stone. It's not a very good motor, and I believe I have a right to say so. If Mr. Stone wants to do anything about it he can contatct me. He hasn't been very cooperative to date. I've written any assistance off on his part.

Now. The question was; is it uncommon for a motor to freeze up after two thousand miles?

Oh, and Cruiser/pakebakerII, please go away. I'm looking for assistance, not your vituperative ranting.

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Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Guido
11-18-2006, 11:41 AM
quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

The balance wheel is off 1/4 turn of the full radius of the wheel. When timing the car that's how far from the timing marks I have to set it to get the car to run right. So I can but assume the wheel is off by 25% or 25 degrees.
Ron,

Just to clarify, a circle has 360 degrees. If it is a quarter turn off (i.e. 25% around the radius) it would be 90 degrees off (360/4). Hope this helps! :D

Gary

http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/53/453/1/21/36/2964121360097493054pVJTFL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/57/757/2/88/4/2023288040097493054SEKowB_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/18/19/8/37/21/2050837210097493054IYBJJL_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/559/1/43/57/2876143570097493054jKVhDw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/22/22/0/2/68/2589002680097493054ftBuBw_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/8/30/30/2075830300097493054aSSlFv_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/59/459/2/23/86/2067223860097493054YoeGMx_th.jpghttp://thumb14.webshots.net/t/28/28/5/18/33/2537518330097493054OgEKcN_th.jpg
Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

Studebaker horse drawn buggy; 1946 M-16 fire truck; 1948 M-16 grain truck; 1949 2R16A grain truck; 1949 2R17A fire truck; 1950 2R5 pickup; 1952 2R17A grain truck; 1952 Packard 200 4 door; 1955 E-38 grain truck; 1957 3E-40 flatbed; 1961 6E-28 grain truck; 1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck; 1962 7E-7 Champ pickup; 1962 GT Hawk 4 speed; 1963 8E-28 flatbed; 1964 Avanti R2 4 speed; 1964 Cruiser and various other "treasures".

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

studeclunker
11-18-2006, 11:46 AM
Thanks Guido. Have I ever mentioned that I suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disorder? Math was never my strong suit, especially geometry.

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Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

54-61-62
11-18-2006, 01:16 PM
My statement is retracted.



Kent

gordr
11-18-2006, 01:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

Thanks Guido. Have I ever mentioned that I suffer from chronic foot-in-mouth disorder? Math was never my strong suit, especially geometry.

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Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith


Ron, the only Studebakers that had balance wheels were watches;)

The device on the front of your engine's crank is a harmonic balancer. If it is a regular Stude V8, the harmonic balancer is a metal disc about 5/16" thick, trapped between two molded rubber washers and centered by the six studs of the crankshaft hub. One of the those six studs is offset slightly, so the disc will only fit properly if installed in the right place. You really have to work at to get it on wrong.

Now the Avanti harmonic balancer is very similar to those used on small block chevies, etc. Has a thick steel ring vulcanized to a rubber ring, which in turn is vulcanized to the hub. The rubber-metal bond HAS been known to fail, allowing the the outer ring with the timing mark to drift. Such a failure is unpredictable, and as long as the engine didn't go out of the shop with the timing mark misaligned, no blame can be attached, IMHO.

Did your mechanic tear the engine down?

Did the engine ever turn over, or run after you installed it in the Champ? If it has been stuck ever since the install, I'd suspect interference between the flywheel and the bellhousing.

If it froze up after a period of storage, and did not seize while being driven, I'd be inclined to suspect rust in the cylinders.

More information is needed.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

kamzack
11-18-2006, 07:59 PM
The siezing of an engine that's been dormant for an extended period is usually the result of the natural condensation process. It may be rings, it may be wrist pins, but doubtful it'd be the crankshaft, but could. I'd resort to one of the old stuck engine solutions we've shared with Bob Sporner aka 63LarkCustom.
Seems we're too quick to be critical as opposed to trying to help a fellow Studebaker enthusiast. I'm convinced that's what this part of the forum is for. Not all of us who enjoy the cars and trucks are accomplished mechanics or have vast knowledge of all things Studebaker. It's important to encourage one another and respond to the questions we bring to the forum, not use it as an opportunity to vent criticism. Jesus once said to those who were gonna stone a prostitute,"Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone". We should not be prideful of the knowledge and experience we've been blessed to achieve and use it to belittle another's call for help. We are all also not blessed with great communication skills, sometimes things don't come out of our mouths(fingertips)as they were concieved in our minds. We'd like to feel the blunders we may make would be taken as not trying to be viciously slanderous,but rather not being able put things in diplomatic expression.
We all want the same things, I hope, that's good fellowship, good friends, a burning desire to be of service and help each other and one or a dozen fun Studebakers.
I must confess, I also enjoy another forum and I don't read the negative stuff I read here. I really soul search before responding on this forum, cause I know someone is gonna come back with a little bit of discouragement and non tactful correction, so I duck. Remember, we hung "Perfection" on the cross.
I'm sure we've been told the addage of "sticks and stones", that's a lye from the pits of hell. The tongue is a fierce weapon. Words from the mouth cannot be taken back, the damage is done. Sometimes it takes a while to heal from a sharp tongue, longer than a flesh wound. It maybe forgiven, but the sting and pain lingers for quite awhile.
The golden rule still applies to all, not just for children. We should think about what we say before it comes out and it starts with me.
If I'm no longer welcome here, I'll understand and it's ok, but please circulate these heart felt expressions around in in your heart and mind.
From a car nut that loves the Lord first in his life and I'm convinced I'm not alone.

Kim

John Kirchhoff
11-18-2006, 08:53 PM
Concerning an engine sticking, I've found several things come into play. First is your climate and how the engine has been stored. Humid weather and big differences between daytime and nightime temperatures causes the cylinders with the open valves and crankcase (fuel tank also) to "breath" in and out, drawing moisture in. Setting a year could stick an engine in some parts of the country and 10 years wouldn't in others. As far as turing/not turning the engine with the fan blade, the difference between being recently run with oil on the cylinder walls and setting a year with very little oil left could make that difference. Put a wrench on the crankshaft bolt and try turning it over. If it is the engine stuck and not interference between the clutch, bell housing etc, I'd say th engine did have new pistons or at least honed cylinder walls and new rings. Two thousand miles isn't anywhere near enough miles to get honed or bored cylinder walls polished up. So, rough walls, very little oil left on the walls and piston with a little rust in a couple of the cylinders sure could make the engine difficult to turn over. Squirt a little oil in the spark plug holes and I bet you can crank if over with a wrench and ge it freed up.

As far as the engine being a "gutless wonder" and the timing marks off, I'd suspect the cam timing being off. Just a tooth off at assembly could sure make the engine weak, sound labored with running and cause the timing marks to be off when you finally get the ignition timing as good as it will get. Had a high mileage Dodge 318 jump a tooth (they have a chain that wears and loosens) and it did everything I just described. And yes, the timing marks were off after adjusting the ignition timing to make it run a little better. If the timing is off, I'm sure the engine was a sweet running job before the overhaul, so I doubt he was exaggerating.

As to the oil being black, unless you try really hard, it's difficult to get every drop of old oil out, even when you're overhauling the engine. In addition, the previous driving habits could have had something to do with that. Here's what I've found after overhauling just about every kind of engine around. The cleanest engine you'll find when overhauling it is a gas engine on a combine. The next is high horsepower diesel tractors, mid sized and the cruddiest engine you'll find is a tractor that's used a few minutes every day in the winter or one some little old lady drove to the grocery store just down the block. Here's why; a combine is started, run full at a constant rpm and load except for a few minutes unloading. The engine is run cold very seldom. Diesels dirty up the oil much faster than a gas engine and high horsepower tractors tend to be used pulling heavy loads with very little down time during planting and harvest and set in the shed the rest of the time unused. Smaller tractors are used for smaller jobs which involves a lot of starting and stopping and in the winter the engine never gets hot enough to vaporize the moisture out of the oil with short jobs. A traveling salesman's high mileage engine is going to be much cleaner than grandma's old but low mileage Caddy. I've overhauled combine engines who's insides were literally clean enough to need nothing more than a couple of swipes with a paper towel to be clean enough to set your lunch on. My '51 stude engine and small gas tractor had gunk 1/4 inch thick in the valve covers, crankcase etc and I'm not exaggerating.

But back to your problem, I doubt the engine is stuck very badly and you may want to pull the front cover and see if the timing marks line up.

Mike Van Veghten
11-18-2006, 09:52 PM
Ron,

As little as one wrist pin galling will freeze an engine solid. Even a running 460 Chevy! Being that it sat for a long time a ring or a wrist pin is the most likely the culprit. Though normall a ring or two can be broken loose with some trans. oil or Marvel Mystery Oil squirted into the plug holes may help...but a frozen wrist pin...taking it apart is the "only" way.

The "damper" (correct speelin) being off that much had to have been done mechanically..or on accidental purpose. It might be possible to put it on the hub backward and because the hub is offset drilled, that would put if off some amount.
I'm not "sure" this can be done, just speculation.
Best to verify actual TDC with a piston stop into the number one cylinder.

Good luck

Mike

Roscomacaw
11-18-2006, 09:53 PM
All the dissertation about timing off, sticking engines and all's been pretty well covered. That said, I'd like to say that engine oil coming out black after a recent "rebuild" is a bad sign - I don't care WHAT other factors might figure in, black oil means you've been had given how you told us the engine was presented.
I'd have stood behind you 100% if you'd have persued compensation when you first found that black oil - but after several years - even I wouldn't consider making anything right if you came to me with a complaint. That's just TOO many years with the engine in YOUR hands, Ron.
In fact, the thing that put the kybosh on my doing any engine rebuilds was when a guy wanted his money back after a Rambler 6 I'd built for him turned sour. If it hadn't been for the guy's dumb-assed brother-in-law letting out the fact that the troubles arose after the two of them had taken the engine apart and had it scattered about their garage and then reassembled it, I'd have taken my licks and given them some money back!:(

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

ST2DE5
11-18-2006, 10:19 PM
I was in Germany in 1962 & 62 during the Berlin wall deal. There was a shop that rebuilt V W engines by the hundreds. They would the engines up clear to the top with diesel fuel and set them on the rask for storage.

studeclunker
11-19-2006, 03:45 AM
Live and learn I suppose. I'll try the mystry oil.

I wasn't on these forums when I purchased the motor. It was another year before I landed here. The vendor and I discussed the situation at length and I got sick of the circular argument, so I gave up. The purpose of this thread and my questions had nothing to do with the source of the engine. I only added the source as background information.

Now, if you want to know what kind of fool I am, I paid $3500 for this motor. Like P. T. Barnum said; 'There's a sucker born every minute'. Good description of me I guess.[:I]

Thanks for the help.

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Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

John Kirchhoff
11-19-2006, 11:39 AM
Concerning the black oil, what about after subsequent oil changes? Did it turn black quickly or did it take a while? Like I said, it's tough to get all the old oil out, especially if the overhaul was done with the engine still in place. Diesel engines are notorious for turning the oil black. I can drain the oil in a diesel tractor when warm, let it set overnight, put on new filters and 16 quarts of nice clean oil and after running 10 minutes, it's already taking on the familiar black color. I've talked to "mechanics" that said they'd pump diesel fuel in through the oil pump and out the galleys to clean the old nasty oil out. I guess that's ok if they get all of it out, as in ALL of it, but I'd much rather have some old cruddy oil left than new oil diluted with diesel. See what happens to rod and crank bearings when the shaft seal on the diesel fuel injection pump leaks and you end up with a crankcase of oil/diesel mix. Believe me, it ain't good.

Carbon makes oil black and usually blowby past the pistons is the culprit. Worn rings, pistons and cylinder walls will do it as will new rings that haven't seated in yet. You can't baby an engine and get the rings to seat, especially on a hard Stude block. You need to throw the coal to it, although not continually for long periods of time until it has more hours on it. You know the recommended procedure for breaking in a new or freshly overhauled diesel engine? Full load at rated rpm. Period.

If your engine truly is weak at the knees, I'd set the ignition timing with a vacuum guage and if still puny, check the camshaft timing (after checking a bunch of little things). Engines aren't gutless for no reason whatsoever; there's a few big things that hurt power and a lot of little things. I don't know where you're at, but I'd like to get hold of that engine. Not bragging on myself in any way at all, but I like a challange and I bet I'd get it running right and you wouldn't feel like a fool after all. Even if you don't get it running the way you want, don't consider yourself a fool. Well intended people can be deceived, but fools walk into a mess knowing full well what awaits them. Good luck.

Roscomacaw
11-20-2006, 12:54 AM
John, You might be right, given your experience with diesels. That's a realm I've not tread in. But an overhauled (while left in the vehicle) Stude V8 has damned few places for leftover oil residue to hide out in.
At the very least - what I'd call an "overhaul" - would entail pan removal, head removal, crank and piston removal as well as the timing cover. I don't think it's unfair to assume that the "mechanic" would take time to clean the pan out and and the heads so that the valves could be reconditioned. Done IN the car, this would mean that there'd be some dirty oil (maybe) left in the lifter valley. This would certainly darken the oil in short order, but "black oil" and someone lied. Period.
If they DIDN'T clean out the pan and the head "work" consisted of slipping on some new valve seals, then the term overhaul is hardly justified.
This said, if it ran a year or two ago and now is stuck, I DON'T think that bad work is to blame. I'd think that it's gotten moisture inside as has been suggested. I've seen that right here in this valley where we only get 11" of rainfall annually. It's hard to predict really. I've found some Studes that have set idle for a year and were stuck. Others that have set over 20 years and would turn using only one hand.[:0]
I won't slight the mentioned vendor on this forum, but if anyone wants to hear my personal experiences, please E-mail me.[8].

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
11-20-2006, 01:51 AM
Marvel Mystery Oil is worth a shot, it helped get my Avanti R1 free.
$3500 for a 259? Dang! I guess I need to revise what I was going to
ask for my 289 with R1 cam/heads and hyperutechnic silvolite pistons!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$:D$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

studeclunker
11-20-2006, 02:58 AM
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try the Mystry oil suggestion and cross my fingers.

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Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Roscomacaw
11-20-2006, 12:13 PM
Clunk - I gotta ask.... What size jar of Vaseline came with that engine?[V]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

John Kirchhoff
11-20-2006, 12:23 PM
I agree with you Mr. Biggs, if the oil actually turned black or very dark as opposed to merely off color, it makes me think there was some old oil hiding somewhere. Either the old oil filter was never changed or they never removed the oil pan and some was left in there. Like you, I know what I consider to be an overhaul also entails cleaning any gunk out and doing my best to get the old nasty oil out. Come to think of it, I don't consider engine work an "overhaul" until the pistons come out and go back in with new rings, new bearings, any necessary head work is done, gaskets and so on. Any thing else is merely head work, changing rod bearings, a ring job and so on.

I think there's a serious problem out there for inexperienced as well as experienced folks when it comes to buyers or sellers of overhauled engines. "Overhaul" is a vauge term that I believe is used much too loosely and unless a lot of questions are asked and answered honestly, you don't know what you're getting. What one person considers to be an overhaul isn't the same as the next person. I'm sure no super mechanic, but if someone wanted to sell me an overhauled engine, you can see I'd expect a heck of a lot more than stuffing new rings on the pistons and new valve stem seals.

I guess all that can be done is for the wary to ask lots of questions, write the answers down and then ask more experienced folks what they mean. I know some folks will try to rattle off a lot of big sounding words or be vauge with the answer. If that person overhauled it, they should be able to answer any questions promptly without having to think a few minutes for the answer. Hang in there Mr. Biggs, I love the banter!