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Kdancy
11-14-2006, 04:57 PM
Advice needed-
I will be getting in a 55 champ sedan in a few days
and the customer wants to update the brakes on it, among
other things. Is adding the
V8 brakes the most practical thing to do or should
I just do
a disc brake and MC change out? I will be putting all
new brake lines and hoses on as well.

1956 Hawk
11-14-2006, 05:06 PM
I would put in a split master cylinder in for added safety.
David

Mike Van Veghten
11-14-2006, 06:38 PM
Try the Dave Levesque brake kit.








Sorry...just came out..!

Mike

Dick Steinkamp
11-14-2006, 08:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by Kdancy
Is adding the
V8 brakes the most practical thing to do or should
I just do
a disc brake and MC change out?


I guess it depends upon what your customer's complaint is with the current brakes.

I've owned a '55 Champion 4 door sedan with brakes in good condition and well adjusted and they worked just fine. The car is relatively light and the brakes seemed to be well matched to the car. If I had another, I probably wouldn't switch the brakes to anything different. Maybe just new cylinders, shoes, etc. will solve whatever problem the customer is experiencing.

I guess putting the V8 brakes on the car might be an improvement over the 6 cylinder brakes. I'm of the opinion that if the current brakes will slide the present tires, the V8 brakes won't stop the car any quicker...they might take less pedal pressure to slide the tires, however (obviously, maximum braking occurs just before the tires start to slide).

I'm also not a big fan of disk brake conversions unless they are fully engineered (master, wheel, and caliper cylinder sizes matched, correct front to rear proportioning, correct residual check valves, pedal geometry, etc). Without this "engineering", my guess is that many (most?) disk brake conversions will stop in a LONGER distance than stock (54 and later) drum brakes. A disk brake conversion not fully engineered and sorted out can also be dangerous...like the car swaping ends under heavy braking.

The biggest advantage of disk brakes (IMHO) is their ability to stop better than drum brakes in the wet and the fact that they don't fade as quickly. I don't have good experience with the wet part, but at the drags in Omaha last month, I made 11 stops in fairly quick succession from 70+ MPH with my stock '54 V8 drum brakes. I did start noticing some fade after the 9th or 10th stop...not dangerous, but noticable. I'm wondering how often a person makes 10+ stops in quick succession from 70+ MPH in the "real" driving world.

It's hard to argue that a dual master cylinder would not be safer (but then so would air bags, 5 MPH bumpers, side impact beams, shoulder harnesses, collapsable steering column, crumple zones, antilock brakes, etc, etc). My caution here is to make sure the master cylinder piston sizes (front and rear) are properly engineered to the brakes being used. Just bolting in a "dual master cylinder" can produce different (and dangerous) front to rear proportioning. I'm sure there were catastrophic brake failures with single master cylinders, but I am unaware of any (maybe there weren't any with well maintained brake systems?).

Just my 2 cents, but it really gets back to your customer's complaint with their current brakes.









http://static.flickr.com/100/292046667_cc1661ba0e_m.jpg

bams50
11-14-2006, 09:15 PM
I don't know much about this subject, but I absolutely am a BIG fan of the dual m/c... blow a line, hose, or wheel cylinder, and you've still got some brakes...[^]

I'll throw Turner brake in here... I've heard a lot of good about his stuff, and bought his kit for my 60 Lark (not installed yet) and it looks pretty impressive to me! But at least as important is I met Jim Turner at Reedsville and talked to him for a while; and he's clearly a guy who'll be there- with a right attitude- to help with info or trouble-shooting should you need it! There are others here with experience in this area; but of the kit sellers I looked at, I picked Turner, based on accessibility (usually at the shows) and face-to-face impression of the owner; combined with the high recommendation of a lot of SDC members!

I want all my Studes- present and future- to have front disc and dual m/c; just for my own peace of mind... I don't want to get into trying to research and engineer brake upgrades myself- Jim's already done all that for me; and I expect he'll be selling me the stuff I need well into the future [8D]

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

N8N
11-14-2006, 09:32 PM
I agree with the other comments... if you already have a good set of V8 brakes ready to go they are probably adequate, but Turner's brakes might not be that much more expensive if you figure in the cost of new linings, wheel cylinders, drums if necessary, etc. I would definitely go with the dual M/C if this is someone else's car.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

John Kirchhoff
11-14-2006, 10:19 PM
I'm not agruing one way or the other, but here's a few things I've learned over the years. Drum brakes fade when overheated because the hot drum expands until it's too big for the shoes to contact. While usually more fade resistant, disc brakes will fade also. Get them too hot and the fluid behind the piston boils, turns into a compressible gas and then it's hold on to your drawers Maggie! Disc brakes more effective in wet conditions? Not always and I'm speaking from a few butt puckering experiences. Cast iron has good friction qualities but rust, anything with stainless steel has poorer friction qualities. So, the prettier they are, the less effective they are when wet. Drill the discs to give the water some place to go and some designs howl like Lon Chaney during a full moon when applied. And the prettiest, most symetrical hole designs howl the most. The staggered, homely designs howl the least. Organic pads work well when dry but get them wet and with some brands, you might as well have a wet washrag in place of the pads. Ride them for a while and they finally dry off enough to lesurely slow you down with a lot of moaning and groaning. Metallic pads wear well and work great when wet but eat up discs at a much faster rate. So, I guess I'm saying there isn't anything perfect, so pick your poison!

bams50
11-14-2006, 10:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

While usually more fade resistant, disc brakes will fade also. Get them too hot and the fluid behind the piston boils, turns into a compressible gas and then it's hold on to your drawers Maggie! Disc brakes more effective in wet conditions? Not always and I'm speaking from a few butt puckering experiences. Cast iron has good friction qualities but rust, anything with stainless steel has poorer friction qualities. So, the prettier they are, the less effective they are when wet. Drill the discs to give the water some place to go and some designs howl like Lon Chaney during a full moon when applied. And the prettiest, most symetrical hole designs howl the most. The staggered, homely designs howl the least. Organic pads work well when dry but get them wet and with some brands, you might as well have a wet washrag in place of the pads. Ride them for a while and they finally dry off enough to lesurely slow you down with a lot of moaning and groaning. Metallic pads wear well and work great when wet but eat up discs at a much faster rate. So, I guess I'm saying there isn't anything perfect, so pick your poison!


I've yet to experience virtually any of these issues with disc brakes- including 24 years of oval track (read: ultra-severe use) racing [:I] In a spirited battle the rotors would sometimes glow bright red and still bring you down from 140 MPH to a stop quickly... yes, these were racing pads and rotors; but lots of years we used stock GM metric rotors and calipers with Black Claw pads, and rarely had any brake issues- probably our most problem-free system overall over the years...

I guess it's a big world....;)

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

rockne10
11-14-2006, 11:21 PM
Lots of food for thought here, and no points I would disagree with.

From experience, the original brakes in my 53 were perfectly adequate for the everyday driving one normally encounters and were capable of locking 'em up when panicked. They were not engineered for the mountains of West Virginia with a full trunk and five passengers. I replaced them with 1963 drum brakes. I replaced my 51 with 61 drums. I'm thrilled with the improvement.

I'm in the process of installing a Turner dual cylinder in the 53, not to improve braking but, to add that second line should the first one fail. Until I have some experience with it I can't speak to proportionality. A little improvement is a good thing. Who can determine when you've gone beyond reason?

Original brakes in good condition were adequate until they got hot. Again, a little improvement is a good thing.

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
33 Rockne 10
51 Commander Starlight
53 Commander Starlight
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/51x2.jpg
previously: 63 Cruiser, 62 Regal VI, 60 VI convertible, 50 LandCruiser

bams50
11-14-2006, 11:33 PM
It should be noted that the Turner dual M/C kit comes with an adjustable proportioning valve, as well as instructions as to how to check and obtain proper balance.

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

sbca96
11-15-2006, 03:55 AM
I had a rebuilt rear wheel cylinder blow out on my 60 Hawk. The edge
of the rubber "cup" had an air bubble in it, and split right through.
Single master cylinder, I blasted through a parking lot sign trying to
get it stopped. Terrible time to find out your "parking brake" doesnt
stop your car......

Considering that the average car today can stop in 50 feet LESS then
your average drum brake Stude, its an area worth improving on. During
my G-tech brake testing with the little GT Mustang 11" brakes, I never
noticed any kind of end swapping. Also, during the course of testing
the smell of brake pads was quite noticeable. I got them pretty hot.
Since my power steering system took a dump, I havent got out to do any
testing with the 13" Cobra brakes, but I expect them to out stop the
GT brakes fairly easily. My best from 60 mph was 148.1 feet. Thats
on par with two fast back Mustangs, one with 13" Baer brakes at each
corner. I have taken a break from brakes at the moment, since I had
to repair the body damage to my Camaro from a hit and run driver.

I would DEFINATELY update the car to a dual master, not doing so is a
form of negligence. The V8 11" front, and 10" rear are adaquate to do
decent stopping, but I remember quite a few times experiencing brake
fade before upgrading my Hawk to a 63 GT Hawk disc setup. Its not a
good feeling pushing as HARD as you can on your brake pedal, and the
car NOT stopping. Scary stuff.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

Kdancy
11-15-2006, 06:25 AM
Several years ago, I had completely redone a 66 mustang 6 cyl convertable and red candy apple paint. The brake system was all new. While pulling into a parking lot in an apartment complex, the right rear brake cylinder cup blew and the car went into the side of an apartment (no one hurt!)--where in I had to rebuild the car because of the loss of brakes. If I had a dual master cylinder on it, I would have been able to stop the car. I vowed never ever to own a car with single chamber MC again.

Roscomacaw
11-15-2006, 08:11 PM
I like hotwheels62r2's observation - LIABILITY I don't care HOW much of a friend this fella is, let him get in a wreck (it don't even have to be somehow related to the brakes you touched!) and lawyers will find you for cleaning.[}:)]



Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
11-15-2006, 09:17 PM
Yes, Liability, and the money hungry lawyers that thrive on it, have
ruined the car hobby forever. After designing my Cobra setup, I was
faced with whether to sell anything at all. I have been working on a
release of liability form that will be required for every purchase. It
is basically what the fine print says on the box of EVERY aftermarket
part you buy. Basically stating that all liability is assumed by the
purchaser of the part, and that it is for off road use only. This is
a nice little catch, because if the vehicle is driven on the street,
then its automatically in violation of the purchase agreement. Read
the fine print guys, those lawyers get you coming and going.

Tom

Dick Steinkamp
11-15-2006, 09:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Yes, Liability, and the money hungry lawyers that thrive on it, have
ruined the car hobby forever.


Oh...then what the heck are we doing [?][:0][}:)];)

http://static.flickr.com/100/292046667_cc1661ba0e_m.jpg

rockne10
11-15-2006, 11:18 PM
We're the ones who don't feel litigious.

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
33 Rockne 10
51 Commander Starlight
53 Commander Starlight
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/51x2.jpg
previously: 63 Cruiser, 62 Regal VI, 60 VI convertible, 50 LandCruiser

bams50
11-17-2006, 06:22 PM
I personally don't give a crap about lawyers and lawsuits... takes too much time and energy [:o)] I just try to do the best I can- safely, fairly, and legally- and let God take care of the rest!!:D

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1