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vegas paul
08-14-2008, 11:16 AM
After modifying my engine to get additional horsepower out of my flathead Champion 6, I am exploring the addition of air conditioning to it. I know it has been done a few times and I need parts info. I will be using a Vintage Air or Classic Auto Air modern system.

What is the availability of a compressor bracket (I know I would have to modify it for the Sanden compressor) for a later model flathead 6? Also, what about a dual crankshaft pulley? I assume that the compressor was driven off of a 2nd belt from the crankshaft. Any ideas on idler pulley/tensioner?

I may fabricate my own compressor bracket from scratch, if necessary, but starting with a stock one might be easier. Additionally, I'm not even sure where these attached for the factory units. Pictures or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

47M5
08-14-2008, 12:00 PM
Paul,
I have done this and have some pictures but I don't how to post them
Dick

S2DSteve
08-14-2008, 12:03 PM
I cogratulate you if you've managed enough surplus power to drive an AC compressor. I've considered the same project on my Champion, but I'm not sure the little 6 will pull it. In any event, if you have an established AC shop in your area, they should have a supply of universal brackets that would be a good start. For the pulley, one way is to just stack a second stock pulley in front of the original.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u57/S2DSteve/Family12-1-2.jpg
Steve Hudson
The Dalles, Oregon
1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually (workhorse)
1953 Commander Convertible (show & go)
1953 Champion Starliner (custom/rod project)
1954 Champion Coupe (daily driver)
1960 Hawk (future project?)

vegas paul
08-14-2008, 12:09 PM
Dick - Here's how to post a photo, or you could send them to me by e-mail (currytp@yahoo.com). http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3219

Steve - I conservatively estimate I nursed an extra 30 hp out of the engine with the mods I've made. With regards to universal brackets, the issue I have is that I'm not sure where to attach them... head bolts, engine mounts, etc? Stacking an original pulley in front of the existing one is an option, however I was worried about balancing them - if an original dual pulley was available, then I would assume that it would be perfectly centered and balanced.

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

54-61-62
08-14-2008, 12:20 PM
I have a factory flathead six AC bracket & pulley setup (including the crank pulleys). Email me if you don't get my email through the forum.

Thanks
Kent
1957hk7@gmail.com

Mike Van Veghten
08-14-2008, 12:34 PM
Paul -

I hope...even with the extra horses, you live in a "flat" area of Las Vegas!
My Conestoga with a 170 is...well...a 299 Stude engine is being prepared for it!

Mike

vegas paul
08-14-2008, 12:45 PM
Mike - All of Las Vegas is flat... Very boring, actually, with streets laid out in parallel/perpendicular grids. There are some mountains (not very high) surrounding the valley (1 hour away) but within the metropolitan area it's pretty level. When I first got my Champion, I researched and saw so many with engine transplants, I was excited about retaining the original power plant. However, since my restoration is NOT original (resto-mod???), I have taken many liberties in the design and performance, including coaxing some additional horses out of the 6.

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

52-fan
08-14-2008, 12:59 PM
I spoke to a member this spring who has an air conditioner on his 50 Champion. He said that although you feel it when the compressor kicks in the effect is negligible. His car is stock.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/52-fan/S4010630.jpg http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/52-fan/S4010632.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/52-fan/S4010629.jpg
My pictures are not the best, but you can see that it's in there. He had an unusual idler set-up, but it works.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/52-fan/StudebakersofArkansas2-1.jpg
1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, both w/overdrive.Searcy,Arkansas
"I may be lazy, but I'm not shiftless."

54-61-62
08-14-2008, 02:56 PM
Not a power-house by big-block-chevy standards, but the champion six really gets unfairly knocked. It has enough power for everyday driving if put together right. Any guy who says that it will slow down to 30mph on the highway when the compressor kicks in is full of BS. I'm really tired of everybody saying put a v8 in it when they have no personal first-hand experience!

Kent

StudeRich
08-14-2008, 03:11 PM
I think the reason most of us say "put a V-8 in it!" is that some of us like to MOVE when we drive, and not putt! So there lays the difference! Different strokes (and bores), for different folks you know! :) :D

Certifiable Member of the 298 C.I. Stude V-8 4V Club! [:p]

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Mike Van Veghten
08-14-2008, 04:19 PM
Hey 54-1-2

I "have"....first hand experience with driving a 170 inch powered Studebaker!

It's NOT much fun at all.
Well....except for the fact that you drive around with your foot on the FLOOR just to get to city speeds.

Freeway.....yea...right. A coupla hills in the L.A. area...again...back on the floor till you get to the top!
And mine is NOT alown in it's severe lack of real horse power, I've driven a couple! 85 (maybe when NEW) woppen hp's are good for draggen around about a 2000lb car.....NOT a 3600lb car!

You apparetly don't own one!

Mike

vegas paul
08-14-2008, 06:57 PM
Man, I must be doing something right! My Champion scoots around town with no effort, and gets to freeway speed (75 mph) in 3rd OD, hardly in record time, but keeps up with accelerating traffic on the on ramps. Granted, it's flat here, but I don't think I would ever consider any more power without reworking the entire front end, tranny, rear end and suspension. Then again, I don't want a hot rod (unless you consider a flathead 6 with dual carbs, dual exhaust, ported/polished 1 1/2" valves, high compression aluminum head, high performance cam, electronic ignition, etc. a hot rod!)

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

BobGlasscock
08-14-2008, 07:13 PM
Paul, I guess you and I both have done something right. Although you have undoubtably done more right than I have. My '50 Champion, 170 ci, is 100% the same as it was at the end of the assembly line on 11-30-49. It spent the first 19 years of its life driving a 30 mile oneway trip, twice a day (60 total) from 7800 feet above sea level to 5100 feet at 30-50 mph, the speed being determined by the curves in the road, NOT the power of the engine. That was 5 days a week, every week for my dad to go to work. For vacations, we drove 450 miles from west of Denver to Amarillo, Texas at speed limit (probably 65 back then). And we took trips from the Denver area to Niagra Falls, Vancouver BC, Edmonton Alberta, Mexico City and any shorter distance in between. NEVER a speed or power problem. I admit, I gotta wonder what these guys who complain about speed are talking about. I just guess they want 0-60 in 4 seconds and 110 in the quarter mile. I don't want that, and am thrilled with driving my 58 year old Studebaker.

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg

DilloCrafter
08-14-2008, 07:56 PM
This thread is making me feel better about my rebuilt Champion 185, which I've yet to find time to put in my truck. It's done pretty much the way Paul has described his. I'm interested in having it dyno'd when it's all in the truck and tuned up, just so we can all know what you can achieve with one of these.

No matter what the ultimate horsepower, I know it will be a sweeter, smoother sounding motor than a modern 4 cylinder like in my Toyota. Like the difference between hearing a vintage Fender guitar through an old tube amplifier vs. listening to a chain saw run.

As long as we're all driving and enjoying our Studebakers, I can't see why any of us should pick at one another, just because we enjoy different sized Studebaker engines! They're all good, because of what they are - historic, nostalgic, fun!

http://simps.us/studebaker/misc/images/Avacar-hcsdc.gif[/img=left]
Paul Simpson
"DilloCrafter"

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

rockne10
08-15-2008, 08:17 AM
I put many highway miles on my '60 Lark VI without overdrive in the hills and mountains of PA and WV; never a complaint. Never hoped for more than I expected. There's certainly a difference when you're running a V-8 or Commander Six but, if they were your children would you love one more than the other?



Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/Rockne/th_Rocknegauges.jpg'33 Rockne 10, '51 Commander Starlight, '53 Commander Starlight

54-61-62
08-15-2008, 03:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Hey 54-1-2

I "have"....first hand experience with driving a 170 inch powered Studebaker!

It's NOT much fun at all.
Well....except for the fact that you drive around with your foot on the FLOOR just to get to city speeds.

Freeway.....yea...right. A coupla hills in the L.A. area...again...back on the floor till you get to the top!
And mine is NOT alown in it's severe lack of real horse power, I've driven a couple! 85 (maybe when NEW) woppen hp's are good for draggen around about a 2000lb car.....NOT a 3600lb car!

You apparetly don't own one!

Mike



I own several in fact. I suggest you don't 'dis me. If anyone in modern times has put a much of miles on a champion six engine it's been me.

car #1: 1954 Champion sedan, 170 flathead six 3od. original 70k mile car never rebuilt. I've owned it since 2002 and been in the family longer then that. I've personally put about 8,000 miles on it. Sure its not a powerhouse but its not bad.

car #2: 1962 lark daytona hardtop. Six automatic. Original ohv engine went to hell out west last winter. Could not find a good ohv head so I put a 1955 185 flathead champion six in the car. Drove 2,500 miles home. It did very nicely even with the 3.31 rear axle and automatic transmission. Oh yeah, I also had a BUNCH of heavy parts packed in the car too. If you don't believe me perhaps Anne still has the video link around.

car#3: 1956 flight hawk. Flathead six with automatic AND air conditioning. 225,000 mile california car. Drove 1500 miles last summer & fall. Used a quart of oil ever 250 miles but kept going and going and going.

Sure, a champion six is not going to be compairable to a 289 but one has to remember to expect a reasonable result. Don't say I don't have experience.

Kent

bams50
08-15-2008, 04:31 PM
I always smile when I hear doomsday descriptions of the sixes. It occurs with all makes, and always has.

If one wants to be able to burn the tires on command, you need an 8; my bone stock 259 stick 60 Lark wagon will smoke the rear tires easily if I want (which I don't), and have to watch it or it will. Any 6 I've had will move along just fine in modern driving; the exception would be 75 MPH on the Interstate, which if I want to do that, I'll take the wagon.

I guess it's all about one's perception of the driving experience. I'm a Type A person that's always crowding the speed limit by my nature, and even I have no complaints with the little flattie in my 59 Lark. Last type of racing I did was an 1800 lb. paved oval track car with a 467 cu. in. FI Chevy BB on alcohol making 800+ horsepower; so I have perspective on the extremes; but it still goes back to expectations. If you're unrealistic, you won't be happy with the 6.

If you want to drive a real dog, try my 80 Audi 5000 diesel......

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"It was the last chance for Studebaker to turn things around. The company was down to its last bullet, and this new small car was it. They called it the Lark"

vegas paul
08-15-2008, 07:34 PM
This thread has gotten derailed from my original question - partly my fault! I received a few responses on A/C in my Champion, and would appreciate any more opinions, experiences, and especially pictures. Thanks to all that have responded so far.

P.S. regarding Kent's response above about going all the way to California in his flathead 6 with lots of heavy parts... Some of those were my donations and that car was PACKED!!! When he stopped by Las Vegas, the car was filled... when he left my house, somehow he had gotten even more in. Clearly, the 6 could carry a load.

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

Dwain G.
08-15-2008, 07:47 PM
Paul, Dave Mottle has copies of A/C install instructions for '58 Stude six, Lark VI too if that will help at all.

http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/images/63.63.jpg
Dwain G.

52-fan
08-15-2008, 10:00 PM
Kent said he had a Hawk with air. How about some pictures of it? Got any pictures?

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/52-fan/StudebakersofArkansas2-1.jpg
1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, both w/overdrive.Searcy,Arkansas
"I may be lazy, but I'm not shiftless."

rockne10
08-15-2008, 10:52 PM
Dogonnit! I was going to post the link to Ray-Lin's Tech pages from the North Carolina Chapter's web site and a graphic of his generator bracket adaption for Sanden compressor mounting. So easy.

NCSDC has redesigned their site and the link is not yet included.

GREAT SITE BY THE WAY!

Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/Rockne/th_Rocknegauges.jpg'33 Rockne 10, '51 Commander Starlight, '53 Commander Starlight

52-fan
08-16-2008, 11:14 AM
You mean this one? :D
http://ncsdc.com/TechIndex.htm
Believe it or not, I was thinking about this a/c with a Champion engine as I was getting ready for work this morning. Since we are talking about an engine that has a finned aluminum head you won't want to use the stock style mount. The ones I have seen use some of the head bolts to hold them down and that would require grinding away some of the fins. The head I have has already been ground for the ignition loom and the oil filter mount, but I wouldn't want to grind anymore fins away. The side mount looks like the best bet.


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/52-fan/StudebakersofArkansas2-1.jpg
1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, both w/overdrive.Searcy,Arkansas
"I may be lazy, but I'm not shiftless."

50Champ
08-16-2008, 12:22 PM
quote: My '50 Champion, 170 ci, is 100% the same as it was at the end of the assembly line on 11-30-49.

How can I find out what day my '50 Champion was built? It wasn't sold until August 1950 so it was probably built towards the end of the model year....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1188/4526177/20234971/329233113.jpg

1950 Champion 2 Dr. Sedan

Commander51
08-16-2008, 05:44 PM
Paul, where do you plan to put the inside-the-dash stuff, since the dash has no insides? I've often thought about a/c (I have a late 259 in my Commander) but I've never seen any interior components I thought would fit...

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/gmail98/th_51CommanderState.jpg
51 Commander State Sedan
Butler PA

vegas paul
08-16-2008, 07:34 PM
Commander51 - Vintage Air and Classic Auto Air have "under the dash" units that look pretty good. These are similar to factory units, and there are some longer/slimmer units also. You can see them on their web sites. Also, original factory units are available, and as evaporators, they can run either R12 (like original) or R134A like modern units.

I like the looks of these...
http://www.vintageair.com/cat2007/24.pdf
http://www.vintageair.com/cat2007/23.pdf

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

Commander51
08-17-2008, 02:49 PM
Paul, I looked at the page links you mentioned in your post, and then measured the distance from the firewall to the leading edge of my dash, and I got 8 inches. The Vintage Air "under the dash" units are a minimum of 12" deep, leaving you with a 4" "shelf" sticking out immediately under the dash. You might want to consider fashioning an "on the tunnel" housing for the hose and vents. You may be able to make something that would be flush with the dash...

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/gmail98/th_51CommanderState.jpg
51 Commander State Sedan
Butler PA

vegas paul
08-17-2008, 03:02 PM
Commander51 - Sorry, I posted the wrong links. The one I wanted was the "Sidewinder" that fits under the dash at 9" deep. Also, Classic Auto air has a universal unit that is 7" deep, approx. 9" tall that is supposed to fit bolted to the firewall behind the dash, conected by tubes to "under the dash" louvers.

Las Vegas, NV - Stop by, coffee's on!
'51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/vegas_paul/graciestude_edited.jpg

Commander51
08-17-2008, 07:31 PM
The Classic Air units look like they'll fit pretty nicely-- good luck to you on the install, and when you've got it up and running, be sure to post some 'cool' pics for us to see your handiwork!

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/gmail98/th_51CommanderState.jpg
51 Commander State Sedan
Butler PA

47M5
08-17-2008, 07:32 PM
This is how the Vintage Air unit looks in M5 pickup.
This is my first post please excuse all my mistakes.
Dick

http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/kk403/CREICHOF/AC018.jpg

47M5
08-17-2008, 09:21 PM
This photto shows the alt. monunted to the compressor uning two short legs, straps or brackets

http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/kk403/CREICHOF/IMG_0028.jpg

47M5
08-17-2008, 09:28 PM
This photo shows the compressor mounted in the old generator brackets and one of the jam nuts needs to be tightened.

http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/kk403/CREICHOF/IMG_0039.jpg

47M5
08-17-2008, 09:38 PM
This photo shows the belt set up. The compressor is driven off of the crankshaft, waterpump belt and the alt. is driven off of the compressor and as you tighten the alt. belt it in turn tightens the compressor belt so I have one tightener on the alt. also bear in mind the fan is removed in this photo and makes water pump pulley look out of line.

http://i310.photobucket.com/albums/kk403/CREICHOF/IMG_0037.jpg

Commander51
08-17-2008, 10:20 PM
Dick, looks like a nice, clean setup. I hope it works as good as it looks!

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g178/gmail98/th_51CommanderState.jpg
51 Commander State Sedan
Butler PA

bondobilly
08-17-2008, 11:06 PM
I am not sure where I saw the photo, but there is a bracket that was made by Studebaker for the Flat Head engines so you could add AC.

It was interesting, the bracket went across the entire head and was secured by the head bolts. It also had an angle that it also used one of the bolts going down the side of the block.