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View Full Version : that nasty Zinc and Tappet topic



63Avanti
06-25-2008, 07:50 PM
I put together a paper on this topic a while ago, and put it up on the http://systems-engineering-associates.com/avocation web site. For those who wish to take the time and get up to date on this controversial topic, here are my citations. A warning, I have a history of being less than interested in opinions not backed up by test results or published papers.

1 Please download and study the references. I welcome discussion based
on facts.
2 November 1999 issue of "Car and Driver", "Searching for the right motor oil for ‘keeper cars’”
3 SAE Paper 760562, The Effects of Phosphorus-Containing Engine Oil
Additives on Exhaust Oxidation Catalyst Degradation, J, F.Caracciolo, J.A. Spearot
4 API engine Oil reference. http://www.api.org/certifications engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf
5 I use Wix or NAPA Gold, which are identical except logo. Cheapest
source: http://fleetfilter.com.
6 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil , a great introduction
7 http://www.bikalabs.com/helpcentre/glossary/tbn-total-base-number
8 SAE 770087, Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected By Engine Oil Zdp Concentration and Type 02/01/1977 Author(s): Loren G. Pless, John J.
Rodgers 2.
9 SAE 2004-01-2986 : How Much Zdp Is Enough? Author(s): Michael L.
McMillan, Robert M. Olree
10 SAE 831760 : Effect of Engine Oil Zinc Dithiophosphate (Zdp)
Additive Type on Cam and Lifter Wear in Taxi Service, Donald J.
Smolenski, Richard H. Kabel 3.
11 ZDP is also known as ZDDP, ZnDTP, or ZDTP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dialkyldithiophosphate
12 Hot Rod Magazine. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech
13 Indiana Chevelles http://www.indianachevelles.com/newsletter/July07Newsletter/page2.htm
14 OverDrive Feature Article, October 2004 Oil Over Again , Tim Barton, http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=45118
15 OverDrive Article, February 2007 Side by Side: CJ-4 vs. CI-4/CI-4
PLUS oil, Tom Jackson http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=58010
16 API Oil Grades Reference Card. http://new.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/ShelfCard_English.pdf
17 Turbo Diesel Magazine test, http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf
18 http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

StudeRich
06-25-2008, 08:31 PM
I would never doubt that these gentlemen knew what they were writing about, AT THE TIME!

But we may need to consider that only one or two were written in 2007 after the Diesel Oil ZDDP content was lowered (CI-4 to CJ-4 and CJ4 Plus) and none in 2008!

As has been said here, the Gov't. EPA standards are changing almost monthly, making it very hard to do a accurate testing or evaluation of Today's Oil, not even knowing WHEN these changes were finally made and when they hit the shelfs! [:0]

I would like to see an actual test and TODAY's ZDDP specs. of this so- called Old car Oil, Castrol Syntec 20W-50 vs
Redline Racing or Old Car Oil etc., just plain ol Valvoline Dino Oil 20W-50 or Castrol GTX 20W-50 in the later two cases to see if their ZDDP alternatives are any good for engine wear in flat tappet engines!! [:0]

And we can forget the additives, as GM and many others have discontinued it, that's already History! [:0]

And no Terry, I have NOT had time to read every bit of every one of your many good referenced papers, I did read some. But thank you for referencing them.:)

Guys, please understand that I am not disagreeing with Terry or buying it! I don't want to know how many parts per million Z X y squared = anything, I just want to know the bottom line: WHAT ARE THE # ONE & TWO BEST OILS FOR OUR CARS TODAY, do they meet the min. standard and are they the most cost effective? :)

StudeRich -Studebakers Northwest Ferndale, WA

63Avanti
06-25-2008, 09:44 PM
this is more like it. here are some of my thoughts
quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

I would never doubt that these gentlemen knew what they were writing about, AT THE TIME!

But we may need to consider that only one or two were written in 2007 after the Diesel Oil ZDDP content was lowered (CI-4 to CJ-4 and CJ4 Plus) and none in 2008!

As has been said here, the Gov't. EPA standards are changing almost monthly, making it very hard to do a accurate testing or evaluation of Today's Oil, not even knowing WHEN these changes were finally made and when they hit the shelfs! [:0]

I would like to see an actual test and TODAY's ZDDP specs. of this so- called Old car Oil, Castrol Syntec 20W-50 vs
Redline Racing or Old Car Oil etc., just plain ol Valvoline Dino Oil 20W-50 or Castrol GTX 20W-50 in the later two cases to see if their ZDDP alternatives are any good for engine wear in flat tappet engines!! [:0]
As far as I can tell, the tests are based on automobile engine types common up to circa 1975. And in some models up to 1989. As they are on the affect of various additives on the wear of those engines, then what they say about those additives are relevant...as long as we drive vehicles with those types of engines. to put it another way, there is no need to continually test the "modern oils." We already know what is needed, we only need to get a VOA on our favorite oil to determine if it is potentially harmful.
quote:
And we can forget the additives, as GM and many others have discontinued it, that's already History! [:0]
actually the additives are coming back, due to demand. Also, higher ZDDP additive oils are making a comeback. Check out my write-ups on the website, both the one on oils and the one on additives. I am attempting to keep up with the new stuff, but am always about 3 months behind. I have another 12 apparently high-ZDDP VOAs to confirm. It will be uploaded when I catch up, but note that I already have added 10 oils to the original paper
quote:
And no Terry, I have NOT had time to read every bit of every one of your many good referenced papers, I did read some. But thank you for referencing them.:)

Guys, please understand that I am not disagreeing with Terry or buying it! I don't want to know how many parts per million Z X y squared = anything, I just want to know the bottom line: WHAT ARE THE # ONE & TWO BEST OILS FOR OUR CARS TODAY, do they meet the min. standard and are they the most cost effective? :)
a couple of papers indicate that while 1200 ppm is "good", 1400 ppm is bad for other reasons. Which is why I am not a fan of dumping that can of STP in the crankcase. Without careful titration (another paper on the website), you can cause problems.
quote:
StudeRich -Studebakers Northwest Ferndale, WA



Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 L

new cruiser
06-28-2008, 06:36 PM
I recently found another oil with zddp additive. Brad Penn racing oil available in 10W-30, 20W-50 and some single weights. Made in Bradford, PA. from good old PA grade crude. Search American Refining Group

Flat Ernie
06-28-2008, 09:05 PM
Brad Penn is the old Kendall "green". Conoco-Phillips bought Kendall several years ago & only kept the name. The refinery & petro-engineers remained & ARG took over.

Great oil. I run it in most of my engines.

Daddy always said, if yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough & I'm one tough sumbitch!

Swifster
06-28-2008, 09:43 PM
Nothing new...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg

Mike Van Veghten
06-29-2008, 02:06 AM
Here we go again....!?

As another noted on this board....additives have been added that "take the place" of the zinc!

Otherwise.............my 259 powered Lark would have died a cam flattening death....years ago...period!
See...it's my daily driver!
Go Castrol GTX !!!!!!!!!

Mike

63Avanti
06-29-2008, 08:48 AM
quote:Originally posted by new cruiser

I recently found another oil with zddp additive. Brad Penn racing oil available in 10W-30, 20W-50 and some single weights. Made in Bradford, PA. from good old PA grade crude. Search American Refining Group

Brad Penn is on my must find list for VOAs. It will go on the http://systems-engineering-associates.com/avocation when I get a 3rd party VOA, if it qualifies.


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

63Avanti
06-29-2008, 08:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Here we go again....!?

As another noted on this board....additives have been added that "take the place" of the zinc!

Otherwise.............my 259 powered Lark would have died a cam flattening death....years ago...period!
See...it's my daily driver!
Go Castrol GTX !!!!!!!!!

Mike

Been hearing that for literally years. Where are the SAE peer reviewed papers? I have not had any luck. The tribiologists point to molybdenum and boron as "modern replacements." However, the "modern" VOAs show a REDUCTION of these "replacements" in the past 3 years. Hmmmm....


Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

63Avanti
06-29-2008, 08:57 AM
Correct. These papers are up to 30 years old, and never refuted in peer reviewed tests/papers. Despite this we still get posters that gives us a "my car works fine, so what is all this garbage about..."
quote:Originally posted by Swifster

Nothing new...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg



Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

Swifster
06-29-2008, 09:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by 63Avanti

Correct. These papers are up to 30 years old, and never refuted in peer reviewed tests/papers. Despite this we still get posters that gives us a "my car works fine, so what is all this garbage about..."

Terry, the 'paper' is the label on the oil container, the product information available on most oil company websites, etc. We all know the issues surrounding ZDDP and the need for it in our oils, especially during break-in on a rebuilt engine. Nothing new.

As 'racing' oils are exempt from the government limitations on ZDDP, and these, along with what ever CI-4 rated oils are still available, make the most sense. Having a racing background myself, I have no issue with running 20W50 in my Daytona when the engine is finished, especially with driving it in the Florida heat. And having been a solid Mobil 1 customer since 1989, I don't feel a need to change that. Again, nothing new.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg

63Avanti
06-29-2008, 01:52 PM
It does not appear that we are arguing on any point here. I wish my Avanti was tight enough to take advantage of any number of Synthetic 20w-50 or 15w-40 high TBN/ZDDP oils out there.
quote:Originally posted by Swifster


quote:Originally posted by 63Avanti

Correct. These papers are up to 30 years old, and never refuted in peer reviewed tests/papers. Despite this we still get posters that gives us a "my car works fine, so what is all this garbage about..."

Terry, the 'paper' is the label on the oil container, the product information available on most oil company websites, etc. We all know the issues surrounding ZDDP and the need for it in our oils, especially during break-in on a rebuilt engine. Nothing new.

As 'racing' oils are exempt from the government limitations on ZDDP, and these, along with what ever CI-4 rated oils are still available, make the most sense. Having a racing background myself, I have no issue with running 20W50 in my Daytona when the engine is finished, especially with driving it in the Florida heat. And having been a solid Mobil 1 customer since 1989, I don't feel a need to change that. Again, nothing new.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg



Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

Swifster
06-29-2008, 01:59 PM
I personally would like to see a high ZDDP 10W30 oil listed for 'racing' or 'vintage cars' where that is the only difference. The 0W30 or 0W40 seems just too thin in my mind when starting the car in warm weather. I think a demand is there but the oil companies just haven't realized it yet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg

63Avanti
06-29-2008, 06:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster

I personally would like to see a high ZDDP 10W30 oil listed for 'racing' or 'vintage cars' where that is the only difference.which is the point of the 9 year old C&D article I referenced above
quote: The 0W30 or 0W40 seems just too thin in my mind when starting the car in warm weather. I think a demand is there but the oil companies just haven't realized it yet.Actually, if you have been following my articles referenced above and the updates, the HDMO fleet operators appear to be forcing the return of high detergency, high TBN, and high ZDDP oils. My list of 3rd party confirmed VOAs has almost doubled in 6 months.
quote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg



Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

Hippie
06-29-2008, 06:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster

I personally would like to see a high ZDDP 10W30 oil listed for 'racing' or 'vintage cars' where that is the only difference. The 0W30 or 0W40 seems just too thin in my mind when starting the car in warm weather. I think a demand is there but the oil companies just haven't realized it yet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL



What's the ZDDP content on Valvoline Racing Oil? It's available in 10W-30, I used it for cam break in on my kid's 318 last Winter.

Analog man in a digital world.

Swifster
06-29-2008, 08:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by Hippie

What's the ZDDP content on Valvoline Racing Oil? It's available in 10W-30, I used it for cam break in on my kid's 318 last Winter.



It would appear we may have a winner. ZDDP is .1200 and comes with a 'Not For Street Use' label. It comes in 5W30, 10W30 and 20W50. There is also a street version called VR1 in 10W30 and 20W50.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg

63Avanti
06-30-2008, 10:18 AM
looks good. Would love to know the TBN.
In keeping with my rep as being anal-retentive, I will post as an update to my article above when/if I can get a third party VOA. In the interim, it is likely a fine oil.

quote:Originally posted by Swifster


quote:Originally posted by Hippie

What's the ZDDP content on Valvoline Racing Oil? It's available in 10W-30, I used it for cam break in on my kid's 318 last Winter.



It would appear we may have a winner. ZDDP is .1200 and comes with a 'Not For Street Use' label. It comes in 5W30, 10W30 and 20W50. There is also a street version called VR1 in 10W30 and 20W50.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/rollingpi.gif http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/01-01-05TheStartingPoint.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/07-17-07FrontClipRemoved.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i280/Swifster/The%20Daytona%20File/Avatar%20Size/04-11-08CoolingFan.jpg



Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
1999 Toyota rice burner
1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

New resolution.
I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...