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tomnoller
10-23-2006, 05:43 PM
In replacing old with new hoses for my '74 Avanti, I've managed to pop the pittman arm off the steering box but it won't clear the shaft because of that big orange engine. Leaving me right where I started. Is there any way to seperate the arm from the control valve?
If not, I'll have to loosen the motor mounts and raise it an inch or so. Will the tranny 'give' enough or should I loosen everything?
Thanks!

Western Washington, USA

John Kirchhoff
10-23-2006, 09:18 PM
If that's the same Bendix used on the earlier 59-66 models, I guess it's possible but I wouldn't try it. I just replaced the control valve seals and the pitman arm coming off the control valve is the last thing to come off. I'd be afraid of loosing parts, especially the little metal spacer that keeps the seal in place on one end of the valve. Believe me, it's a job you'd much rather do on the workbench than laying under the car.

sbca96
10-24-2006, 01:36 AM
I am going to tackle this job as soon as I get the Camaro damage fixed
and the car back out of the garage! Of course, I am working on a
Studebaker Avanti, so I may not have your problem. SO far I have told
that what your doing will work on a Studebaker. Its weird though, I
was under the impression that the GM engine is more narrow. I wonder
why its so close? Careful when jacking up the engine, dont damage
anything else in the process. Sometimes improperly lifted engines
can have oil leaks after, as seals are disturbed on the pan! You will
end up trading one leak for another!![B)]

Tom

Mike
10-24-2006, 05:51 AM
There was room to remove the pitman arm in the Stude version, (even with clutch linkage). I think the starter on a Stude has to be removed. I didn't have to fool with the exhaust, either.
Is the cast-in oil filter mount in the way on a Chevy engine? Off the top of my head, I suggest raising the engine, rather than working on the valve under the car.
Since it's so hard to work on, you probably want to replace the seal on the pitman arm shaft while it's apart. Make sure the arm is indexed on the shaft, in the right position, and the valve and reach rod are the specified length. It's important that the box, (steering wheel position), is centered; with the wheels straight ahead.
Stan Gundry suggests using a Ford pitman arm ball, available at Mustang parts sites I think, in a drilled out Stude pitman arm; to make it easier to work on. The Ford ball has a stud and nut at the arm. It's mentioned in his excellent book.
Mike M.

John Kirchhoff
10-24-2006, 09:07 AM
On my Stude at least, the pitman arm won't come off directly unless you twist the front up and to the right, the back down and to the left, have the pitman arm tilted forward and you stick your tongue out like when little kids coloring. On a Stude at least it may be less hassle to remove the starter first. As for removing the pitman arm, I dug around through my dad's old tools and came up with a 1-1/4" Williams wrench shaped like an L. It allowed me to tighten it up later after I'd replaced the starter. To simplify replace the arm correctly, consider taking a little paint brush and dabbing a speck of light colored paint on the back side of the pitman arm and shaft because it's impossible to see the alignment marks on the opposite side with the engine in place. Or at least it is for me with my aging eyes!

Skip Lackie
10-24-2006, 09:56 AM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

If that's the same Bendix used on the earlier 59-66 models, I guess it's possible but I wouldn't try it. I just replaced the control valve seals and the pitman arm coming off the control valve is the last thing to come off. I'd be afraid of loosing parts, especially the little metal spacer that keeps the seal in place on one end of the valve. Believe me, it's a job you'd much rather do on the workbench than laying under the car.


I have replaced the seals in those control valves a couple of times without removing them from the car, though as John says, it's not a lot of fun. As he notes, the Pitman arm is the last thing to come off -- by that time, you're ready to reasssemble. If you do the disassembly carefully and keep track of how things came apart, putting it back together is relatively easy. Just make sure everything in nice and clean. It is tough on your back, though.

Skip Lackie

tomnoller
10-24-2006, 11:06 AM
<<It is tough on your back, though.>> Boy, you got that right, Skip! Had I known I was going to remove the valve (to get to the hoses) I would have waited. I've taken asprin for the muscle aches.
I'll post a pic of what I'm dealing with later today.
The chebby motor mounts are a bit more complicated than what I've been used to with the Stude engines, but it looks like one 'crossways' bolt loosened will seperate things. I've been using 4 jack stands and the floor jack under the pivot but still spook being under the car. Don't want me wife to come home and find me resembling the wicked witch of the north...or was that the west? <G>

Western Washington, USA

tomnoller
10-24-2006, 04:12 PM
This is looking up from below. That boss is just enough to not allow my sliding the arm off. Will try a gentle lift of the engine.

http://www.tomnoller.com/pic.JPG


Western Washington, USA

tomnoller
10-24-2006, 06:10 PM
It worked and I was able to slide the arm off, clean and swap out the hoses and am now buttoning things up. Hoping for no leaks!

Western Washington, USA

Skip Lackie
10-25-2006, 10:03 AM
quote:Originally posted by tomnoller

It worked and I was able to slide the arm off, clean and swap out the hoses and am now buttoning things up. Hoping for no leaks!

Western Washington, USA


Tom-
Nice to know that technique worked. I have exactly the same car, and one of these days I'm gonna hafta do the same job. Now, how am I gonna remember what you did . . . . . . . . .?
Skip Lackie

tomnoller
10-25-2006, 06:25 PM
Skip, just drive her over and we'll do it together!

Western Washington, USA

mtdoraford
10-25-2006, 08:03 PM
The front end to an avanti is magic, what goes on comes off....the hard way! Use an engine hoist to lift the engin after you loosen the motor mount and you should get clearance.

You will be surprised at how easy the avanti is to work on with little or no clearance in most case. They Jamed the engine into the car and make you work. Believe it, it comes together. Don't hesitate,rip it a part. Enjoy thee opportunity!

I'm a glutton for punishment,some friend told me the Avanti was easy to work on and fix yourself.

sbca96
10-26-2006, 12:37 AM
You guys should try an change the plugs and EGR valve on an early LT1
powered 4th Gen Camaro (1993-1997) if you want difficult.:D;)

I have never come across anything on a Studebaker that compares.

Tom

CHAMP
10-26-2006, 08:15 AM
I just want to mention one thing. Very few people service their power steering. I have found that if you change the power steering fluid every couple years or so you will have a lot less repairs on the system. The fluid may not be worn out but it can be full of contamenents (forgive spelling):)

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

Skip Lackie
10-26-2006, 05:42 PM
quote:Originally posted by tomnoller

Skip, just drive her over and we'll do it together!

Western Washington, USA


With a 3.73 rear end and no overdrive, I'll be deaf by the time I get there.

Skip Lackie
Washington DC

Skip Lackie
10-26-2006, 05:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

You guys should try an change the plugs and EGR valve on an early LT1
powered 4th Gen Camaro (1993-1997) if you want difficult.:D;)

I have never come across anything on a Studebaker that compares.

Tom


Agreed. We have all occasionally poked fun at Studebaker design compromises or the engineering shortcuts Avanti Motors had to take to get the SBC engine in the Avanti, but those Camaros take the cake for bone-headedness. Spark plugs (even those that go 50K or 100K miles) are still normal maintenance items. Having to drop the Y-pipe and remove (or at least move) the alternator and starter just to get at the plugs is ridiculous. These were cars that were designed from the ground up for the small-block Chevy engine, so there's no excuse for the lack of clearance under the hood.[V]

Skip Lackie

sbca96
10-27-2006, 12:11 AM
Wow .. I have never had to get that far to change the plugs, but the
word "tight" doesnt come close. I can change the plugs without the
need to remove anything but the spark plug wire boots, thought I can
read the casting numbers from the exhaust manifolds off my forearm!;)

The EGR valve is a different story, its on the back of the intake, and
thats under the windsheild. It remove it on the 93 LT1, you need to
take the fuel rail off. I didnt want to do that, so I bought a wrench
from the dollar store, bent and cut it with a notch to clear the side
of the EGR valve, so I can make one turn to the next flat. Anything is
possible with some effort.

One thing that I was happy to see is how easy the front suspension is
to disassemble! After 230,000 miles I have to replace the left side
because my wife nailed a curb and bent the arm on the knuckle. Keep in
mind that NOTHING has been replaced in those 230,000 miles. It has the
factory wheel bearings, ball joints and bushings, AND rotors! They
added a metal tab on the bolts for the lower control arm that fit in
to holes in the frame. These keep the bolts from turning when you are
applying torque to remove or install the bolts. They left enough room
for a standard 1/2 drive ratchet to get in there to remove. The last
time I saw something so WELL thought out was on out 1939 Studebaker.
It had a notch/dent in the frame at JUST the right spot to allow the
full arc of a wrench for removal of the starter. How cool is that?

Tom

Karl
10-28-2006, 03:39 AM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

You guys should try an change the plugs and EGR valve on an early LT1
powered 4th Gen Camaro (1993-1997) if you want difficult.:D;)

I have never come across anything on a Studebaker that compares.

Tom

You think the Camaro plugs were fun[}:)]Try a factory V8 Monza. You had to lift the engine to change the driver side plugs.:(To put headers on it. you pulled the engine.:(

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

bams50
10-28-2006, 06:36 AM
quote:Originally posted by Karl
[br
You think the Camaro plugs were fun[}:)]Try a factory V8 Monza. You had to lift the engine to change the driver side plugs.:(To put headers on it. you pulled the engine.:(


I thought changing the plugs the Monza was one of the easiest to do- once you realized they had to be done from the bottom! The motor mount bolts go straight up from the bottom (air impact plus long extension=piece o' cake;)) Then you could jack that sucker way up, then the plugs were wide open...

'Course, that's from my fume-addled memory- I could be hallucinating..........:D

Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

wcortesi
03-09-2013, 08:57 AM
Skip, just drive her over and we'll do it together!

Western Washington, USA
Is that offer still good? I'm about to tackle this job, and I'm not looking forward to it!

SN-60
03-09-2013, 09:18 AM
You think the Camaro plugs were fun[}:)]Try a factory V8 Monza. You had to lift the engine to change the driver side plugs.:(To put headers on it. you pulled the engine.:(

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

A friend of mine owned a factory V8 Monza with the 350 engine....quite a rarity I belive....I remember He had a difficult time finding the 'short' water pump for it.

bezhawk
03-10-2013, 12:58 PM
Quite an old thread, but, the pitman arm does not need to come off to replace hoses, or even rebuild the control valve. It can be dissassembled and rebuilt on the car. Once slid off the valve the hoses are fairly easy to access.

wcortesi
03-10-2013, 05:30 PM
Once slid off the valve the hoses are fairly easy to access. I'm not sure if I understand that statement. Slid off the valve?

bezhawk
03-10-2013, 10:43 PM
If you take off the rear aluminum cap (two slotted screws), and remove the adjusting nut. (count how many turns to completely tight first (to the 1/6th of a turn) before backing it off). When putting it together it should be tightened and backed off the same amount.
Then remove the front two 1/2" cap screws (bolts). The valve body and spool valve with hoses attached, will now slide rearwards off the actuating bolt. Keep all the parts in order, and pay close attention to the orientation of the spool valve (one end is longer) and the lip of the seals face each other(towards pressure source). A shop manual is a must, but sometimes the parts manual shows a better exploded view. You don't have to normally take off the seat for the pitman arm ball, as parts are usually not replaced, and nothing is serviced in the rebuild kit there, except for thefoam grease dust seal. If you wanted to though, you could further dissassemble the ball seat on the car too. Sometimes the spring to the seat halves breaks. Just drive out the pin, and back off the nut and remove the spring and ball seat rear halve. Remove the front halve of the rest of the control valve from the pitman arm ball, and the front halve of the ball seat, and sliding cage bearing will now slide out. Don't ever try to unscrew the grease fitting, as it is a tightly pressed in fitting, and will break off.

wcortesi
03-11-2013, 05:53 AM
Thank you so much for that detailed description! I'm not sure if I'll go that way, but it certainly opens up another option I hadn't thought of.

Skip Lackie
03-12-2013, 04:34 PM
Cleanliness (and some aspirin for your back) is absolutely necessary. Lay each part on a clean towel or newspaper to keep things in order. Put the O rings and washers on a wooden dowel in order to keep track of their orientation.

wcortesi
03-12-2013, 06:37 PM
Thanks for the tips, I can use all I can get. Hydraulics tend to intimidate me, but I've successfully worked on them a few times. I would just hate to cause a problem I didn't have before by tearing things apart! I did order a seal kit for the control valve, though. I'll have to sit down with the parts manual and study it before I attempt it, along with more research.

Skip Lackie
03-13-2013, 05:26 PM
As I recall, the parts book has a very good llustration of the internal guts of the control valve. Make a copy so you don't get trans fluid all over your parts book. You'll have it everywhere else.

wcortesi
03-13-2013, 06:45 PM
Good idea, although there shouldn't be much left in it now. This all started when I decided to change the pump (leaking), which I mangled trying to save the return hose, only to find out that they are unique to the Avanti II. I have the guys at my shop working on altering a new one for me now! I've turned the wheels a few times trying to gain better access to the control valve, so I've lost a bit of fluid....
One of our truck mechanics sort of volunteered to help with the hoses, so that should be a huge help!

wcortesi
03-16-2013, 03:20 PM
Perhaps this is a dumb observation, but I was just under my Avanti looking things over, and it seems that if you disconnected the reach rod the whole assembly could be pivoted down to allow better access to the hoses. It just seems like it would be easier than disconnecting the pitman arm or taking the control valve apart. Maybe I'm not seeing something....