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View Full Version : Replacement axle?? Axle saga - RESOLVED!



sbca96
08-10-2006, 02:13 AM
UPDATE at last post

I think I came up with my temporary solution, but I wanted to see if there
was any SERIOUS negatives to this direction.

Problem :

I had Bobby turn the two rear hubs, to make sure they were true, & both
where out. One of the hubs showed signs of being beaten and pryed on
with something quite large. Most likely someone without a hub puller. The
passenger side hub went on perfect, with less then .001 runout, the other
side (the one with pry marks) showed .022 runout!! Thats not gonna work.
It also explains my pulsating pedal (though I dont have a clue why I didnt
notice it before, unless the worn pads played a part). I couldnt see how
Bobby could have messed up machining the hub, so I decided to check the
axle to see if it was bent. Unfortunately - it is. The axle is bent about .024
in the same area that would cause the hub to be "out". Normally this is a
reason to buy the flanged axle kit from Fairborn, which I plan to do, but I
can NOT afford it right now. I need to get my bumpers rechromed for the
upcoming show I have labored all year long to enter (win?) I thought of
getting a replacment axle, but I dont even want to spend that money for
something I plan on dumping in a year or so. The axle has been bent for
over 15 years, so I doubt that there is a breakage issue. The pry marks
on the hub are opposite from the direction the axle is bent. It was bent by
someone trying to remove the hub by prying with something huge.

Solution option "A" :

Because I drive the car infrequently, I think that I will see if Bobby can do
a tapered shim that I can put between the hub and the disc. This will allow
me to get the car mobile again, solve the wobble, and spend the least cash
doing so. Then in a year or so, I will buy the Fairborn kit. I KNOW that its
not the "Right" way to fix it, but it will work, and it beats machining the hub
to match the bend (which would make it useless for someone else). If it is
not possible to make the tapered shim, then I might just have him machine
it with forced runout to match the axle bend. One would assume that any
replacement axle, would come with a hub.

Solution option "B" :

My secondary idea is to use shim stock peices of .020 and .010 as washers
at the lug bolts, in between the hub and the rotor. The tapered shim is the
best support for the rotor, but since the wheel is only bolted in 5 places, I
think that the result would be a "taper" that would work. The hub is steel
and the rotor is steel, so some aluminum shim stock might would nice and
then deform a little to keep stress points from forming.

I sware .. if its not one thing ... its another.

Thoughts?

Tom

Kdancy
08-10-2006, 07:16 AM
Tom, there should be scads of Stude Dana 44 axles out there for cheap. Surly some one in your area has a spare one. Where are you located ? I think even NOS ones are pretty cheap, under 100.00.

DEEPNHOCK
08-10-2006, 07:25 AM
Change the axle and hub immediately.
I'll leave my personal comments out of this.
This is a safety issue, and now it is a 'public' safety issue.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by sbca96

I think I came up with my temporary solution, but I wanted to see if there
was any SERIOUS negatives to this direction.

Problem :

I had Bobby turn the two rear hubs, to make sure they were true, & both
where out. One of the hubs showed signs of being beaten and pryed on
with something quite large. Most likely someone without a hub puller. The
passenger side hub went on perfect, with less then .001 runout, the other
side (the one with pry marks) showed .022 runout!! Thats not gonna work.
It also explains my pulsating pedal (though I dont have a clue why I didnt
notice it before, unless the worn pads played a part). I couldnt see how
Bobby could have messed up machining the hub, so I decided to check the
axle to see if it was bent. Unfortunately - it is. The axle is bent about .024
in the same area that would cause the hub to be "out". Normally this is a
reason to buy the flanged axle kit from Fairborn, which I plan to do, but I
can NOT afford it right now. I need to get my bumpers rechromed for the
upcoming show I have labored all year long to enter (win?) I thought of
getting a replacment axle, but I dont even want to spend that money for
something I plan on dumping in a year or so. The axle has been bent for
over 15 years, so I doubt that there is a breakage issue. The pry marks
on the hub are opposite from the direction the axle is bent. It was bent by
someone trying to remove the hub by prying with something huge.

Solution option "A" :

Because I drive the car infrequently, I think that I will see if Bobby can do
a tapered shim that I can put between the hub and the disc. This will allow
me to get the car mobile again, solve the wobble, and spend the least cash
doing so. Then in a year or so, I will buy the Fairborn kit. I KNOW that its
not the "Right" way to fix it, but it will work, and it beats machining the hub
to match the bend (which would make it useless for someone else). If it is
not possible to make the tapered shim, then I might just have him machine
it with forced runout to match the axle bend. One would assume that any
replacement axle, would come with a hub.

Solution option "B" :

My secondary idea is to use shim stock peices of .020 and .010 as washers
at the lug bolts, in between the hub and the rotor. The tapered shim is the
best support for the rotor, but since the wheel is only bolted in 5 places, I
think that the result would be a "taper" that would work. The hub is steel
and the rotor is steel, so some aluminum shim stock might would nice and
then deform a little to keep stress points from forming.

I sware .. if its not one thing ... its another.

Thoughts?

Tom

jimmijim8
08-10-2006, 07:44 AM
Any Studebaker car dana 44 taper axle will work whether it be from a posi or 1 wheel drive. When I swapped the 44 rear out of my Hawk, the TT I put in had one of the axles bent by someone not taking the drum off properly. I didn't know till I put it in gear while up on jack stands. Wobble-Wobble, Aw chit!!! Pull your defective axle out and install another making sure that the thrust block or pin is in place before inserting the replacement axle. This is probably the most inexpensive, safest, and no-nonsensical route to take. jimmijim

Chicken Hawk
08-10-2006, 08:13 AM
Axles from a 44 housing in '51 and '52 are shorter than '53 through '64.

Ted

Mike Van Veghten
08-10-2006, 10:20 AM
CHANGE IT

Nuff said.

Mike

sbca96
08-10-2006, 01:07 PM
I plan on changing it, and I think I have located one locally. I must
say that some of the comments kinda crack me up. This has been like
this for over 20 years, why the urgency? You think that just because
I found its bent, it will suddenly break tomorrow??

In the mean time, I am looking for a fix to get the car mobile again,
I can not leave a car on jack stands in my driveway. Thanks for the
input, I think that the separate shims will work until I can get the
replacement axle in my hands.

Thanks for the info Ted, I will make sure I get the later axle.;)

Tom

EDIT : Any tips on pulling out an axle? I did one years ago in my
Hawks open diff Dana 44, but its been so long I dont remember how.

PackardV8
08-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Hi, Tom,

Your problem-solving skills are well known. However, in this case, you are making it harder than it needs be. There are Dana 44 axles everywhere. I have two on the shelf right now. Want to make it to that show? Find another axle, have it magnafluxed over the outer 1' and bolt it in.

In reality, the Dana 44 tapered axles were a questionable design from the day of the first Stude V8. I have lost count of how many I have broken, seen break, heard of breaking over the past 50 years.

One local Avanti owner is the poster child for this recommendation. He was driving to a show on several-years-old-tires-with-like-new-tread when one threw a belt and broke his right front fender. He got new tires and the next month his left axle snapped off and broke the rear quarter. He is looking at $2,500 - 3,000 in body work and paint. Could have bought a lot of tires and axles for that money. Luckily, no one was injured.

thnx, jv.


PackardV8

Mike Van Veghten
08-10-2006, 02:56 PM
sbca wrote -
quote:This has been like this for over 20 years, why the urgency? You think that just because I found its bent, it will suddenly break tomorrow??

Well..why take the chance? I'm guessing you've seen the rear fenders wiped off the car because the axle broke...I have. Or the crashes at the races because an axle broke...I have.

I was also very lucky one night...a girl friend and I had gone to the Irwindale drag strip (the original one) one night. I had made a few runs in my four speed, 210, 2dr, 56 Chevy. On the way to her house...we were "one turn" from the front of her house....the car shook like we'd been hit by a truck, a big bang to go with it....and the car dropped to the ground in back. Luckly I had just let the clutch out and 3 houses away from her house, so we weren't moving but a coupla miles an hour.
We were lucky we weren't going very fast, the car was lucky we weren't going very fast. No damage to anything but the axle and a 750 foot, up hill towing bill.

So yea...don't get smart on us....and don't tear up any Avanti fenders!!

Mike

stude freak
08-10-2006, 03:20 PM
Get the new axles safety is worth more than your ego or a trophy. If ya want a trophy i got a house full i will send ya one.:D

David Baggett Mantachie,Ms.

sbca96
08-10-2006, 03:42 PM
I will have the axle by the show, the issue is that I made it a point
that I was GOING to bring the Avanti to In N Out Burger tomorrow night.
This axle has been in this condition since whoever beat the heck out
of it bent it. I understand the potential of axles breaking, I have
also experienced it - it sucks. The Hawk broke that same side back
in High School, the drum came off with the wheel, and with the single
master cylinder I had NO brakes. At about 5 mph, the car slid on the
backing plate for quite a few houses before it stopped. The Avanti
has a dual master, so at least I would be able to stop it IF it broke.
This axle assembly came from a 64 Wagonaire that my dad bought back
in the early 70's. It got swapped into our 63 Wagonaire, then into a
61 Hawk owned by a friend. Then into MY 60 Hawk, and now into my 63
Avanti. Its probably seen about 50,000 miles (at least). Looks like
I will be getting a replacement axle this weekend, and I will have it
checked for cracks. I wasnt being "smart", I just honestly dont feel
that now that I know its bent, makes it any more prone to breaking. If
anything, I know I should not attempt to beat my 148.1 foot stopping
distance now that I have the Cobra brakes on-until the new axle is in!

Sorry it came off that way, I just REALLY wanted to make it tomorrow!
The actual car show is Sept 2nd.:D

Oh .. also, the car will have to sit for about two weeks while the
front and rear bumpers are rechromed, hopefully they will allow me to
drop them off in Gardena Saturday morning. So since the Cobra brakes
got installed, I have barely been able to drive it! Grrrrrr!!!

I have to call one more person that might have one OUT of the axle, &
ready to install. If I can pick one up from him, then I will swap it
out tonight, and be done with it.

Tom

Alan
08-10-2006, 04:34 PM
Tom, What car is it going in? I have a 4.54 geared Dana 44 out of a 53K that I would sell for $50 if you pick it up 10 min. from Gardena or $100 to deliver it to you.

sbca96
08-10-2006, 05:10 PM
Alan, this is for the 63 Avanti. I appreciate the offer, but I am in
Santa Barbara now, and wont be going to Gardena until Sat. Hey, if
you are in Gardena .... can I drop off my bumpers to you, and then you
bring them to Vernes for me, IF they arent going to be open Saturday?
I have an axle lined up for this weekend in town, but I still might be
able to get one today on the drive home.

This whole "get it done today" issue is to get the car to the Santa
Barbara InNOut Burger tomorrow night as I planned. Since the bumpers
will be off the car from Saturday on, this is my last chance to get
it over to show "the guys" until the car show. I like to set goals
and meet them. I had no idea that the axle was bent, this was a shot
from left field. Shows how the difference in the gripping surfaces
between drum and disc brakes cause problems you didnt know about to
poke up their ugly head! I wonder how many other tapered axle Studes
are on the road with bent axles! I would never have known if I wasnt
checking the runout of the rear rotors.

Thanks guys!

Tom

sbca96
08-10-2006, 08:15 PM
UPDATE : The second source of an axle came up empty, I am too tired
from all this to deal with it tonight anyway. I will get the axle I
already found this weekend, and install it. Tonight I will remove
the bumpers to bring to LA either tomorrow (halfday?) or Saturday. I
NEED to get those over to the shop, or its not gonna get done on time!

I called the insurance, and they say that having the bumpers off the
car will NOT effect my policy. Thats good news. So I will be able to
continue to trouble shoot sans bumpers, and make In N Out next week
with a "new" axle installed.;)

I hope I dont like the bumpers OFF the car so much I feel I wasted the
money having them rechromed![B)]

Tom

Alan
08-10-2006, 08:44 PM
How much is Vern charging? and how soon will he get them done? Front and rear?

Mike Van Veghten
08-10-2006, 10:36 PM
Only partially changing the subject....

The In & Outs around hear....would rather close up thAn have a cruze night!

What gives?

And two...maybe the L.A. crowd can have lunch in Gardna (?) if you make it up here Saturday.
Let us know, maybe we can all meet up at Verns, though I've only been there once and have no idea how to get there!!

Mike

PackardV8
08-11-2006, 12:17 AM
Hi,Tom,

Styling is always a personal preference, but I much prefer my Avanti without bumpers. Have been driving it that way for a year now.

You wouldn't believe how much the brackets weigh. The bumpers themselves are cheap, thin, junk, but the brackets are heavy, hell-for-stout and will chew holes in the side of the car if one works loose and starts vibrating.

thnx, jv.

PackardV8

sbca96
08-11-2006, 02:46 AM
Alan,

The quote I got a year ago (8/20/2005) was "about 275.00 on the rear.
125.00 front center, and 90.00 each on front ends", thats 580. I hope
that it has not changed too much. Seems like the price of everything
has gone up in the last year.[xx(][V] The quote was 5-10 days.

Mike,

In N Out tried to force us out shortly after the local TV & News came
by last year or so and interviewed people. They were doing their
usual stories on "street racing", and were more interested in the fart
cars on the other side of the lot then us. Word got around after the
Santa Barbara News Press was there, and then the following Friday the
local TV station ABC's "Key News" was there. I wasnt making it back
then in the 63 Avanti, it still had the original leaking factory disc
brakes and warped rotors. I had driven the '95 Impala SS the day the
Newspress was there, the photographer had no clue that it would blow
the doors off the late 60's El Camino he decided to shoot instead. The
owner of the El Camino even TOLD the guy, "thats a fast car". After
those two events the InNOut management hired a security guard to come
over and bug us, though WE never caused any trouble. The noise makers
showed up ONLY when the News was there, never saw them after that. It
was a couple weeks later then manager came out and told us that it was
cool if WE stayed.

I have the Avanti bumpers loaded up in my "El Camaro":D but I dont
have a clue at this point, WHEN I will be getting down there. I will
call Vernes tomorrow on my wifes cell phone, and see if they will be
open on Saturday or not. If they wont be, then I will just sneak out
of work early and jet down there. I might do that anyway if I get too
bored at work! I like the idea of meeting up, but I wont have the
Avanti, and I have no set in stone plans. I dont like to make plans
when things are so sketchy, and then be branded a "Flake". Sorry! You
are always welcome to show up at the Turnpike Santa Barbara In N Out.
Its hit and miss on the turn out, but we could coordinate a mini Stude
meet there sometime. Traffic coming INTO S.B. at that time is clear.

Packard,

I have the bumpers off, and yes, its NICE without them! I had a model
I made when I was a kid (and dreaming of owning an Avanti), and I did
not put the bumpers on, and shaved the mounts. The thing is, they fit
the character of the car, and they also match my new wheels. As much
as I would like to leave them off, and save the 600 bucks ... oh well.

Tom

PackardV8
08-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Your car, your choice. FWIW, the wheels stand out much more without the bumpers on the car. I put small side marker lights in the side bumper bracket holes and they look like they grew there.

thnx, jv

PackardV8

sbca96
08-13-2006, 09:46 PM
Alan, I should have picked up that axle from you when I was down there
dropping off the bumpers. The axle I had lined up for this weekend,
turned out to be from a 51 Stude! The other axle he had was a 27. I
have a few calls out there, but I am hitting dead end after dead end.
The guy I got the front hubs from, swapped his 44 axles for a Fairborn
kit, but the old axles had the hubs spinning on them. He says one is
completely shot, the other is .... "eh". What pains me, is that we
dumped a couple axles off at the junk yard years ago, when my dad sold
the house (at the bottom of the market in '95). So far everyone that
I get hold of, has just thrown theirs out "last week". I could drive
up on the hill my Hawk is on, and pull it out of it, but its an hour
drive one way, and if I forget something I need ..... grrrrrrrrrrrr!

Leaning toward the spacer shims again ........[B)]

Tom

Mike Van Veghten
08-13-2006, 11:08 PM
quote:Leaning toward the spacer shims again ........


Mmmmmmm....

Mike

sbca96
08-13-2006, 11:16 PM
Mike, sorry to catch you while you were eating .....

Concerning the damaged axle, he said that one was toast, the other had
shown signs of "moving". How bad can the taper BE, and still be a
usable axle?? I will have it checked for cracks, but how can I check
the taper to make sure the hub will fit correctly? Maybe I can get
away with using the "ok" axle.

UPDATE : A friend of mine HAS an axle, ready-to-go, checked for cracks
and out of the housing .... the catch is, he is a forest service fire
fighter and wont be back to the area for 7 to 10 days. Thats not too
good, but not entirely bad. I will be getting the "ok" axle tomorrow
night after work to inspect, hopefully its not bent or cracked and the
taper is usable. Anyone know HOW to check the taper for "go-no-go"?

Tom

sbca96
08-15-2006, 12:45 AM
UPDATE :

Got an axle tonight, this is the "ok" one, looks usable. I will have
it checked tomorrow to make sure its not bent or cracked. Anyone
have concerns about the wear at the outer bearing? I guess if I use
some Loctite and tap in to were it was, it should be OK. Other than
using the mark left on the axle as a guide, any pointers how to get
the bearing back on the axle shaft "correctly"?

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/axle001a.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/axle002a.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/axle003a.jpg

Tom

blackhawk
08-15-2006, 03:26 AM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

UPDATE :Got an axle tonight, this is the "ok" one, looks usable. I will have
it checked tomorrow to make sure its not bent or cracked. Anyone
have concerns about the wear at the outer bearing? I guess if I use
some Loctite and tap in to were it was, it should be OK. Other than
using the mark left on the axle as a guide, any pointers how to get
the bearing back on the axle shaft "correctly"?
Tom
Tom - I think the axles are case hardened. I would be worried that the galling where the bearing spun would make the axle more likely to break in that spot. The axle I broke last winter, broke almost flush with the inside of the hub which I think is right at the bearing. If it were me, I'd continue to use the one already in the car and just stay off the gas. You said it has been bent for a long time. Sure seems likely it will last until you get the axle from your FS friend or the flanged axle replacement if you don't subject it to a lot of torque or flexing. Too bad we're so far apart. I have several used axles in good shape. But, by time you get one I ship you one from Alaska, your firefighter friend will be back. Dale

Mike Van Veghten
08-15-2006, 10:13 AM
Na...Dale's right.

All axles only have surface hardening done to them. Some thicker thAn others but still just surface. That bad spot is truly a bad spot. Not only has the galling screwed up the hardened area but it looks like it's started a fissure where the material has already started on it way to catastrophic failure.

Don't use that axle.

Mike

DEEPNHOCK
08-15-2006, 11:59 AM
Let me get this straight...

You are spending money on chrome and not spending money on flanged axles?

sbca96
08-15-2006, 12:23 PM
Actually the hub contact area you can see about 1 inch out further
from the bearing. The axle I broke in High School sheared off at the
end of the keyway, not at the bearing race. <s>It does look like it
might have spun at one point,</s> certainly not as good as I would like.

So I guess now I am back to the .010/.020 shims?;)

I am debating even having this axle checked for cracks, like I said
that area concerned me. I guess I am short an axle shaft again.[V]

And YES Jeff, I am doing chrome bumpers before flanged axles. Allow me
to explain to you why. I had over a foot long rust area on the back
bumper that really made the car look bad. As I mentioned I am TRYING
to get the car to a local show. Now, I ask you, which will have more
of an impact at a car show? Nicely chromed bumpers, or flanged axles?
This axle assembly was out of my Hawk, which I drove for over 20k and
never had ANY issues, its WHY I installed it into the Avanti. It had
NEVER shown any signs of a bent axle, and the ONLY reason I noticed it
was because of intalling my disc brake setup on the rear. I guess the
new rotors and pads is what made the problem more obvious. ALSO, I am
trying to prove a NEW concept for Studebakers. Inexpensive, widely
available Mustang parts used on a RECENT car for 10 years ('94-'04).
Not too mention the HUGE aftermarket availability of even bigger brakes.
Not everyone has Fairborn's flanged axle kit, but EVERY Stude has the
tapered axle setup. I must start there, then upgrade, or people will
assume this concept only works for Fairborns kit. Make sense now?

Obviously the car IS driveable, since I did all my Gtech & 0-60 tests
with this axle assembly in the car. The shims will fix the problem
well enough to get the car 5 blocks to the show, but I thought while
I had it mostly apart ......

Tom

Roscomacaw
08-15-2006, 12:24 PM
Tom,

You've been extolling the laudits of your "World's most efficient Studebaker braking system" - this so you can "be safe" from all the "other" idiots on the road. And yet you'd use a galled (possibly fractured - can't say because you've not had it magnafluxed) axle and some Loctite to trust to the extreme stresses you subject this Avanti to? I guess your demise or disabling will be acceptable so long as it's at your own hand, eh?[8]
I had a wheelchair-bound boss some years ago. He said he never regretted testing that drag bike for a friend. He only wished the guy had told him that the controls had been altered from standard.
He'd been an up-'n-coming road race driver prior to the motorcycle crippling. He was one of those "hot-shots" who knew it all when it came to anything with wheels. There was a certain irony that he ended up spending his life on a set of them.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

sbca96
08-15-2006, 01:07 PM
UPDATE (Mike and Dale) :

OK, I had a pretty knowledgeable guy here at work take a look at
the axle shaft. He says that it definately DIDNT spin, the area
looks like an "intimate contact" spot from an interference fit.
The bearing that I removed from the shaft required a few hits to
get off the shaft, so it wasnt loose. Also, the area that LOOKS
like its "spun" you can not even feel with your finger nail. I
should apologize, I didnt bother doing that last night, I took a
couple pictures and that was it. He mentioned that if the bearing
required pounding to remove from the shaft, and wasnt frozen, its
hard to accept that the I.D. was spinning on the shaft since it
will spin at the point of least resistence - in the bearing. He
also said that IF it spun, then you should be able to feel some
kind of damage or depression (which there isnt), & it would also
have radial marks across the entire mating surface, not just the
outer edge (I also figured that those marks should be on the big
side of the taper, not the small side if it JUST started to spin).
On close inspection, those radial marks that LOOK like damage
from a spun bearing, seam to be the machining marks from when the
taper was created, & the coloring looks like rust from being on the
exposed side of the bearing. There is no "groove".

Can someone with a used axle, with bearing off, inspect that area
and see what it looks like? I seem to remember the axle I did
years ago having signs of contact at the bearing area - you could
see where the bearing was.

Tom

8E45E
08-15-2006, 01:15 PM
Normally this is a
reason to buy the flanged axle kit from Fairborn, which I plan to do, but I
can NOT afford it right now. I need to get my bumpers rechromed for the
upcoming show I have labored all year long to enter (win?)

Jeff is right about your prirorities on this one. It's what you don't normally see on the car that is more important than the shiny stuff. Newly rechromed bumpers are nowhere near as improtant than your safety or someone elses!!

Craig

sbca96
08-15-2006, 03:39 PM
UPDATE :

After the promising input from the machine shop foreman at my work,
I decided to go ahead and bring the axle in to be checked out for
straightness and cracks instead of just tossing it. For the record,
I wasnt going to put ANY axle in without it being checked out for
cracks first - thats a no brainer. The owner of the shop downtown
agreed with the foreman here that there was nothing wrong with the
axle in that area, it was just discolored and had some marring from
the bearing being pressed on 40 years ago.

He will first be checking it for straightness, and than if it passes
that test, do a "wet mag" test for cracks. He said that they just
checked a set of International tapered axles last week.

As for priorities, I dont think its wise to throw 600 bucks at a 50
dollar problem. The Fairborn axles can wait. Bumpers could not.

Supposed to call at 3:30 to get the word ........

Tom

sbca96
08-16-2006, 12:25 PM
UPDATE 9:20am weds :

Just got a call from the shop, they found that the axle was "out" by
about .024 if they used the "centers". If they V-blocked it, then it
only shows .010 out. The taper doesnt seem to be concentric with the
seal rider. Whats the deal? I guess I wont truely know how "straight"
it is until I put it IN the axle housing and check it. I told them
to go ahead and check for cracks - he is "warming up the machine"....

Has anyone ever bothered to check one of these to this detail??

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
08-16-2006, 12:30 PM
No...
Most of us would have changed it and been on the road an hour later;)
Jeff[8D]



quote:Originally posted by sbca96

UPDATE 9:20am weds :

Just got a call from the shop, they found that the axle was "out" by
about .024 if they used the "centers". If they V-blocked it, then it
only shows .010 out. The taper doesnt seem to be concentric with the
seal rider. Whats the deal? I guess I wont truely know how "straight"
it is until I put it IN the axle housing and check it. I told them
to go ahead and check for cracks - he is "warming up the machine"....

Has anyone ever bothered to check one of these to this detail??

Tom


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
Ocala, FL.[u](For one more month!)</u>
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

sbca96
08-16-2006, 01:31 PM
Is there anyone with HELPFUL input on axle straightness specifications?

I got the results of the "wet mag" test - NO CRACKS! So all I need to
know now is if its straight enough. At worst its at least 60% better
then the one IN the housing now.:D

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
08-16-2006, 02:34 PM
Tom,
You have already passed on the truly helpful advice passed on to you from Studebaker people with years of experience with the exact problem you are involved with.
Just change the axle and move on, for your own sake, and the sake of others. Have you ever seen a tire/wheel/hub assembly come off and tear up a Stude? I have. I have also had it happen to me on several occaisions driving my Stude as hard as I could.
You want helpful?
Listen to other Stude people when they speak.
If you shop around long enough to get the reply you are looking for, you will probably end up being disappointed and will have spent more in the long run than just fixing it right away would have cost...BTDT...
Go ahead and discount my advice as useless, because you don't like me, or what I have to say.
No skin off my Avanti rear quarter...
Axles are cheap.
My advice is still the same.
Change it for your own good.
Jeff[8D]





quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Is there anyone with HELPFUL input on axle straightness specifications?

I got the results of the "wet mag" test - NO CRACKS! So all I need to
know now is if its straight enough. At worst its at least 60% better
then the one IN the housing now.:D

Tom


http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j54/deepnhock/Jeff%20Rice%20Studebaker%20Pictures/1937StudebakerCoupeExpressJeffRicee.jpg

DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
Ocala, FL.[u](For one more month!)</u>
'37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
'37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
'61 Hawk (project)
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

sbca96
08-16-2006, 04:49 PM
Again, anyone with HELPFUL input to the question I asked? Mike? Dale?
Preferably someone thats actually been READING my posts?

I am TRYING my best to turn over a new leaf on the forum, and not get
into a pissing match with YOU Jeff, or Mr Biggs. Neither of you are
making this easy for me. Let me clarify for you, since you obviously
have NOT been reading what I type. I GOT a new axle, like anyone else
would do. I inspected it, and posted pictures of it. I got feedback
from a couple people in regards to what THEY saw in a picture on the
internet. I had a knowledgable person inspect the axle (I think that
Mike and Dale would agree that IN PERSON beats a picture) and he felt
it looked OK. From that I brought the axle to a shop that DOES this
kind of stuff, & he ALSO agreed that the area that Mike and Dale were
concerned about (and I was also) was OK. I had this shop check the
axle for cracks, and it has NONE. I also had the shop check for the
straightness, which they felt was OK, but have no tolerance data to be
giving a final analysis. This the INFO that I was asking about.

Feel free to modify your post now that you can see that I am NOT an
idiot, and NOT doing this the hard way, and NOT looking for someone
to just tell me what I want to hear. When was the last time you went
and checked an axle for straightness? Or did you only check for cracks?
Get off your know-it-all high horse and stop talking down to me, and
then perhaps we can start getting along.

Tom

ROADRACELARK
08-16-2006, 06:13 PM
Tom,
Can you send me your E-mail address. I have 4 pictures that are of my Avanti that, as the saying goes are worth a thousand (or more [B)]) words. I'm still not computer literate enough to figure out how to scan and post this stuff.:(
Dan

Road Racers turn left AND right.

ROADRACELARK
08-16-2006, 06:18 PM
Tom,
Send me your E-mail address where I can forward these 4 pictures of MY Avanti. These fall in the catagory of being worth "a thousand (or more[:0]) words or mabe$" Post them if you like...I'm not computer literate enough to scan and post this stuff. :(
Dan

Road Racers turn left AND right.

ROADRACELARK
08-16-2006, 06:28 PM
Tom,
Never mind,,,,I found your E-mail address (dum-mass me) I hope they came through ok.
Dan

Road Racers turn left AND right.

sbca96
08-16-2006, 06:59 PM
Dan,

I got an email, but its got a link to Snapfish, and I dont have an
account, its asking me to sign up for an account to view the pictures.
In the thumb nails I see an Avanti, and what looks to be a hub still
bolted in a rim - I am assuming its a sheared off axle? I have seen
this already ... as I have mentioned I broke a tapered axle back in
High School on my Hawk. I had the replacement axle checked for any
cracks, there arent any. My only concern was straightness, & how it
can be checked BEFORE installing. I cleaned up the area that was a
concern for a "spun bearing" with a Scotchbrite pad and some WD40. It
looks like a NEW axle now. I will post pictures when I get home. It
[u]didnt</u> spin, the surface is only marred from the bearing race being a
pressed on, and some corrosion from years of service.

I showed the pictures to the shop foreman at my work and he said that
its obvious from the picture why Mike and Dale thought it had spun. He
said that the picture makes it look MUCH worse then it is. I am not
drawing this out, only documenting the process for others.;)

Tom

DEEPNHOCK
08-16-2006, 07:04 PM
Since you asked...
I checked my last 5 axles in my lathe for runout.
Scrapped one old Stude axle...Scrapped a re-ground 28 spline 10 bolt redrilled for 5X4&3/4 pattern (it was twisted and bent), and had the flanged axles check out fine.
I did read your post's.
BTW, most seal manufacturers will only allow for about .003" to .005" runout with their single lip nitrile seals. Best to check their guidelines.
I'll defer to your onsite expertise.
Best of luck.
Jeff (15 hands isn't that high...)Rice[8D]



quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Again, anyone with HELPFUL input to the question I asked? Mike? Dale?
Preferably someone thats actually been READING my posts?
I am TRYING my best to turn over a new leaf on the forum, and not get
into a pissing match with YOU Jeff, or Mr Biggs. Neither of you are
making this easy for me. Let me clarify for you, since you obviously
have NOT been reading what I type. I GOT a new axle, like anyone else
would do. I inspected it, and posted pictures of it. I got feedback
from a couple people in regards to what THEY saw in a picture on the
internet. I had a knowledgable person inspect the axle (I think that
Mike and Dale would agree that IN PERSON beats a picture) and he felt
it looked OK. From that I brought the axle to a shop that DOES this
kind of stuff, & he ALSO agreed that the area that Mike and Dale were
concerned about (and I was also) was OK. I had this shop check the
axle for cracks, and it has NONE. I also had the shop check for the
straightness, which they felt was OK, but have no tolerance data to be
giving a final analysis. This the INFO that I was asking about.
Feel free to modify your post now that you can see that I am NOT an
idiot, and NOT doing this the hard way, and NOT looking for someone
to just tell me what I want to hear. When was the last time you went
and checked an axle for straightness? Or did you only check for cracks?
Get off your know-it-all high horse and stop talking down to me, and
then perhaps we can start getting along.
Tom

Mike Van Veghten
08-16-2006, 10:20 PM
Chuck it........


Ok...if the bad "looking" spot was truly just a weird looking stain...

You say that the seal diameter is out to the taper but how bout the bearing diameter? Are they the same dia? What Jeff says is right, seals don't like getting forced out of round. The axle originally was machined between centers, now they're off .024"? Does that mean the end will wobble .024" or go up and down .012"? Different centers?
If the taper is offset, and not actually bent, you may be ok to use since you have discs in the back. If you had drum brakes you'ld have the same bad pedal pulse you have now.
If the taper is bent....you'll have the same problem you have now...a disc that rotates out of plain...causing a pedal pulse!

Mike

p.s - thEn and thAn are totally different words!
I know, I know don't shoot, just trying to help!

sbca96
08-16-2006, 10:32 PM
Mike,

My best answer to you is "I dont know", I wasnt there when the guy
checked the straightness, and he didnt seem to be very sure of the
findings. I think that the only way that I will "know" is to get
the axle in the housing and check the taper (like I did the one that
is in there now). I dont know where he blocked it, or where he did
the check on the axle. He said that the outer end, where he set it
up on the lathe, looked "boogered up" and he wasnt sure if that might
have caused the funky numbers. You figure if the cone wasnt dead
center in the chamfered hole, then all bets are off. I know that it
has no cracks, so that makes me feel good. Here is the pictures of
the SAME axle, with about 5 minutes of scotchbriting :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/axle004a.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/axle005a.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/axle006a.jpg

There is a little pitting left from the disimilar metal corrosion, but
I dont think you will find many 40 year old parts looking much better.
I am going out now to put the axle in, and hopefully it comes out as
not bent. From the info the guy gave to me, I expect it to be better
then the one thats in the axle now. I will leave this one in there,
until I can get my fire fighter friends axle checked for straightness.
I know that his was checked for cracks, but who knows if its not bent?

Tom

sbca96
08-17-2006, 02:59 AM
OK .. I am satisfied with the results, not perfect, but when you are
dealing with parts this old, beggars cant be chosers. With the axle
in the housing the runout of the taper looked like under .010, maybe
close to .005. Its hard to tell - with the keyway, and its getting
late, my back and neck hurt & the stupid dial indicator arm just kept
moving on me! Not getting "accurate" results, I just decided to put
the hub on and check the runout there. I got a max of .010 on there.
The runout was in the same location as the old axle, so I think that
the hub is a little off still (bent the direction of the axle). I will
see if I can get the hub from the guy I got the axle from, but in the
meantime I will have Bobby machine the hub to eliminate the runout.
Its so little that its not worth being concerned about, and at most
it will be in the car for a year or two. No cracks, so I am safe on
the axle now. Public safety hazzard is resolved.;)

Oh .. and FYI .. I took a picture of the bent axle after I removed the
bearing from the taper. Looks like the other one did - stained :

http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/avantibrakeproject/axle_saga/bentaxle001a.jpg

Tom

sbca96
08-18-2006, 03:35 AM
Got the hub machined to offset the runout, and buttoned it up tonight.
Went out for a drive and the pulsating pedal seems to be completely
gone. I will drive the Avanti to work tomorrow, and have some more
time to get a feel for things. One thing I can say, even though I have
not been able to REALLY hit the brakes, what I have done is amazing!
I fear that these brakes might be so strong, they will twist the king
pins right off the upper and lower a-arms!;)

Tom