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Dan Timberlake
04-29-2008, 11:40 AM
Does anyone have a hub lying around they could measure?
It's the item behind the rubber damper parts shown here - http://champparts.com/catalog/images/Engine%20Breakdown.jpg
And in front of the slinger and cam drive gear.

I'm interested in the overall length, and the projection of the front diameter where the damper stuff rides, to within 0.002 inch or so?

Thanks,

Dan Timberlake

Dan Timberlake
05-01-2008, 07:30 PM
Looking more and more like I'll just buy a new hub.

Does the hub protrude beyond the crank nose, or does the crank protrude beyond the hub, like mine right now?

N8N
05-01-2008, 07:39 PM
hmmm... is this one of those crank swap issues? there are different noses for different cranks you know...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

wdsj
05-02-2008, 02:48 PM
My 259 is currently scattered around my garage. If you still need dimensions, I get them for you.

Dell
59 Silver Hawk
62 GT Hawk

Dan Timberlake
05-04-2008, 08:19 AM
If the crank was swapped, tweren't by me. My 61 Hawk arrived a few months ago with an allegedly "rebuilt " engine. All the literature indicates it shoudl have come with a 289. Number on the block and a plastic straw down the plug hole agree it is a 1961 259, so is a transplant.

My previous tirade on crank philosophy explained why I think there are pieces missing or modified to unsuitability.
The components bolted to the front of the crank are in complete disarray.
The front pulley stack was secured with 1 bolt. AllThe others are dangling free. The crank bolt had a stack of washer on it and was barely snug, and Looking at the protruding crank, and only clamping stuff that does not matter. The damper rubbers are trash.

Dan Timberlake
05-16-2008, 05:39 AM
I pulled off my hub. It fit real tight and the bore looks smooth.

A smooth metal surface (no gear teeth, probably the slinger)is visible thru front main seal.

The hub is 1.800 inches long, or a bit over 1 3/4 using a tape measure inside-out on the inner diameter.
The damper flange face is ~ 3/8 inch behind the front edge.

Are those lengths correct?

snout extended beyond the crank hub, so tightening the large bolt to 140 lb-ft clamps nothing.
I think I'm missing about 1/8 inch of hardware with a bore larger than 1.375 (crank snout diameter).

Dwain G.
05-16-2008, 07:30 PM
This is exactly what happens when a late crankshaft is installed in an earlier engine. That in itself isn't a problem, you just need to replace the lock plate (aka spacer). Your width (front to back)measurement of the hub is about right at 1.800", and they are all the same. If you are able to measure the distance from the front of the crank snout back to that shiny surface you mentioned you should get about 1.880" with the long snout crank. So that means the snout will protrude about .080". The lock plate is about twice that thickness, and the newer one (part # 1557000) has a larger inside diameter (about 1 7/16") so it will fit over the end of the crank and push everything back as you tighten the big bolt. You don't have to buy a new lock plate if you have a way of enlarging the center hole in the old one. Be sure to confirm the crank end play afterward!

http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/images/63.63.jpg
Dwain G.

Dan Timberlake
05-17-2008, 09:01 AM
Thanks Dwain,

I knew somebody did some parts swapping. The engine block is stamped V492635, which I think checked out as a year correct 1960 259 not a 289.
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/imagew2.aspx?p=1&c=5547880&i=238237049&z=0

The engine and trans were described as "rebuilt."
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110224693265&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fmotors.shop.ebay.com%3A80%2F__%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm39%26_ nkw%3D110224693265%26_nd1%3D%26submit.x%3D49%26submit.y%3D10%26_fvi%3D1

Once I get the endplay down from 0.028" I hope (dream) the ominous rubbing,scraping sound at the rear of the engine when turned by hand goes away. Also gotta wonder if the bellhousing was aligned to that 259 block. I figure the sad state of affairs at the front of the engine does not bode well.

Dwain G.
05-17-2008, 12:46 PM
'Ominous rubbing, scraping sound'? You've never heard this engine run yet, is that correct? And this noise is heard when turning the engine by hand?

http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/images/63.63.jpg
Dwain G.

Dan Timberlake
05-18-2008, 08:28 AM
Ad said it ran well.
My best friend, a Technically capable witness heard it drive off the trailer, and said it ran well and sounded good.

I've been puttering around with it, and never run it, because of lack of air cleaner, and all the missing and messed up external hardware on the crank.

When rotating the crank with a 1/2 drive ratchet for various inspections and tests it sounds like something rubbing continuosly toward the back of the engine, maybe even external. I'm picturing a metal shield rubbing on the torque converter, but have not had the car in the air or been under the car to see what really is back there.

If my 0.028 inch endplay is resulting from the crank hub not being seated (50/50 chance, I guess), the extra endplay would allow the crank to slide backward about 0.02 inch from where Clem, Henry, J.M. Peter and Jacob John Mohler intended.

I don't picture any components (cam drive gear>block, rod eye > piston boss, crank > block or main cap, etc) having just .02 axial running clearance

WCP
05-18-2008, 05:01 PM
The noise you are hearing may be result of the starter bendix being engaged as you turn over the engine. It will not disengage until the engine fires and kicks it back. Remove the starter and check it out.

Dan Timberlake
05-18-2008, 06:33 PM
Made a pusher spacer from 1 1/2 inch (not HD) pipe as recommended in the shop manual.
Cut to 2.0 inch long, with three 3/4 inch washers from HOme depot ($3 bucks, not counnting my hacksaw time). The crank bolt turned in a yielding kind of way, as if a tight fitting gear or hub was being eased along a shaft. After a turn or so it suddenly felt solid, just like I believe it should. 0.0025 to 0.0030 inch end play depending on crank rotated position. Borderline too tight, Unfortunately. Still "rubs" when rotated, although it could also be described as a dry precessional whirling sound, too. (Thanks WCP).

The sound of the RH exhaust rubbing on the driveshaft during my TT and ratio check got my attention. Maybe the e-brake cable run under the exhaust system has something to do with that.

WCP
05-19-2008, 12:33 PM
The measurements that you asked for as follows: O.A. length 1.804", front face to flange 0.399", flange width 0.331", flange to scroll end 1.075" for a total of 1.805". These were taken from an NOS part #527252 and dimensions could be 0.001" on the high side, since I didn't bother to wash off the cosmoline preservative. If the hub, slinger and gear are tight to the thrust plate and #1 main journal, then the end play is the result of serious wear of the #1 main bearing thrust surfaces. There usually is a shim between the thrust plate and crank journal to estalish the specified end play. Most often it is 0.003" steel shim. That much end play warrants removing the timig gear cover, slinger, gear and thrust plate for an inspection. You may have a bad #1 main bearing for starters and that could have been caused by low oil pressure for whatever reason at some time.

Dan Timberlake
05-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Thanks WCP. My hub is 1.800 overall. Close enough for me. My endplay (after rearranging test hardware to actually clamp the hub etc against crank shoulder) was down from about 0.03 (thirty thou)inch to 0.0025/0.0030, (three thou) which is the minimum spec I saw (0.003 inch), and a half-thou less than that.
I ordered the 1557000 thicker later lock plate you mentioned. Hope it comes in today so I can play Hawk over the holiday.

More and more this "rebuilt" engine looks to have been put together by someone totally ignorant of Studi-o-synchrasies. It is not a comfortable feeling.

Dan T

Neal in NM
05-26-2008, 08:18 AM
Wish I had seen your post earlier because I actually machined a new hub out of 4140 steel. I had to because the original one had been cut in two by a loose pulley. Neal.http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w126/ptmachine/Hub01.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w126/ptmachine/hub02.jpg

Dan Timberlake
05-26-2008, 02:19 PM
That's pretty Neal. Looks like a few extra threaded holes in there.
Did you re-create the counter rotating archimedes screw on the oil side, or convert to a lip seal?

Dan T

Neal in NM
05-27-2008, 07:48 AM
No I didn't replicate the oil groove. I replaced the front seal with a modern lip seal. The extra holes are needed to reattach the original pulley which was messed up. Neal.