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jpiatchek
10-13-2006, 06:26 PM
I have a 64 Avanti R1 engine in a Lark that is leaking oil thru the distrbutor. It is an electronic Thibeault unit. Pulled the distributor today and it has a good gasket, but it looks as if the oil is coming up thru the distrutor shaft and out the bottom of the drain holes in the bottom of the distributor. Also, when I run it hard, oil comes thru the oil filler caps and runs down the side of the valve covers. THe car was rebuilt with all quality parts 10 years ago by Studebaker Heaven in California but only 10,000 miles. It runs strong, starts good, and doesn't seem to smoke out the tailpipes. The plugs have a go0d color and everything seems good except what seems to be excessive back pressure. Any ideas on what the cause might be? Thanks for any help.

sbca96
10-13-2006, 06:53 PM
It sounds like what you are experiencing is not "back pressure" but a
"blow by" issue. Its a buildup of pressure inside the crankcase. If
the engine has low compression (less then say 125 psi in each cyl) it
could cause this. A more realistic cause with only 10,000 miles is
an improperly installed PCV valve. Flow of the "Positive Crankcase
Ventilation Valve" should be TOWARD the carb, in other words, if you
blow through the valve, the air should go into the base, but not back
into the valley cover. Studebaker used a screw-in PCV valve on the
engines other then the R1, to be honest I havent looked at mine to
see if its the same valve. Though after 40 years, who knows whats on
the engine now. Many people replace them with in-line valves, which
would require a hose nipple screwed into the valley cover. I've also
seen screw in PCV valves that have the OPPOSITE flow of Studebaker! If
the person putting one on doesnt check this, and only goes by someones
"find" at a local parts store .. a "blocked" vent could result.

EDIT : "Back pressure" is usually in reference to the exhaust system.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

jpiatchek
10-13-2006, 07:19 PM
TOM--Thanks. My Avanti R1 engine has a pipe that bolts into the side of the oil pan. From that pipe there is a large hose and a smaller diameter hose.The large diameter hose goes to the side of the air filter and the other smaller hose to a port in the back of the carburator(an Edelbrock aftermarket). I just put a vaxuum gauge on the car and it reads a steady 17 or so. The neddle seems to respond properly when you gas it and let off. There doesn't seem to be another PC value located anywhere else, but I haven't examined that closely. Should the large hose going into the air cleaner or the small hose going into the back of the carb be sucking vacuum? Should there be a vauum pull form the port at the back of the carb that the small hose is plugged into? any help would be appreciated. The car runs extremely strong and starts and idles perfect, so I would be surprise if it was low compression. Thanks for help. John

1956 Hawk
10-13-2006, 07:33 PM
I am not familiar with an R1, but on an R2 the small hose goes to a pcv valve that screws into the back of the carb, and the large hose to the air box is so that excess crankcase pressure will be sucked into the intake when the car is under boost.
From what you say I would check the pcv valve in the carb. Take it out and make sure you can blow through it from the hose side (so air goes into the carb). I had a pcv valve get pluged on my 259 Lark, and it would blow the breather cap off when I drove on the freeway.
Also Edelbrock suggests that the pcv goes to the front of the carb, not the back.
David

Dan White
10-13-2006, 07:50 PM
You should check and make sure you have a PCV on screwed in the base of the carb! When I got mine it was plugged off!!!! I blew off the valve cover breather one time and wondered what the heck! Make sure the PCV valve is working and in the right direction as Tom notes. You can get the correct PCV from NAPA, Dave Thibeault, or Myers Studebaker. A small hose should connect from the PCV to the small pipe that Y's off the larger pipe coming from the oil pan.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

jpiatchek
10-13-2006, 11:22 PM
I checked the car tonight and there is a PCV in the back of the carb and it is working and going in the right direction. With the car running at idle there is vacuum at the back of the carb and then the vacuum gets milder are goes away as I give it throttle. Everything seems to be working as it should. Any other ideas? Thanks for any help you can give. John

sbca96
10-14-2006, 04:40 AM
You might try a compression test .. just as a base reference. You
can get a compression tester from Sears for about 40 bucks, I prefer
the one that screws in with a hose, and has a standard air hose bibb
on the other end that the gauge attaches too. The hose can be used
(with the schrader valve removed) with an air compressor to charge a
cylinder with air while you remove valve springs for new valve seals.

Tom

jpiatchek
10-14-2006, 08:50 AM
Tom--The fellow I purchased the car from said he just had the valves adjusted. They are a timy bit noisy. Could one or two or them be adjusted wrong and be causing the blow by? Thanks John

jpiatchek
10-14-2006, 10:34 AM
Thanks--Will pull the hose from the PCV and see if that helps. Will do a compression test in the next few days and see what happens there. The oil has just been changed a few hundred miles ago and my mechanic said it looks good and doesn't smell like oil. If they tightened one or two of the valves on the adjustment too much, could that cause the problem. You guys are great. John

John Kirchhoff
10-14-2006, 10:39 AM
If the PCV valve is ok and such, you might do as Tom suggested and check compression. There could be a broken compression ring and the pressure on that cylinder should read as less than the others. Warm the engine up first so that the pistons have expanded and oil has been circulated around. Have all the plugs removed and the throttle completely open when you check to get accurate readings. While the maximum readings are important, don't have a heart attack if they all read lower than what the manual says. A tired starter, dry bearings in the starter, corroded battery terminals and such can all result in the engine cranking slower than normal. Do observe the differences between cylinders. 10% is nothing to worry about but if a couple are considerabaly less than the rest, there might be something going on. Squirt maybe a teaspoon of light oil in the cylinder with something like a syringe and then check. If the compression reading goes up significantly, it's rings leaking, if it's still low, it's probably a valve leaking. If you really want to go whole hog, spend $75 at Harbor Freight and get one of those Chinese leak down gauges. It will give you an idea of each cylinder's leakage. I don't have one but I seem to remember that 8-12% leakage is normal but if you're building a souped up drag racer or such, 4% is the max. If over 25%, she's getting a little tired. Those figures could be wrong because I'm recalling something I read 25 years ago and you know how a person's memory is. But, squirting oil in the cylinder will pretty much tell you the same thing the high dollar gauge set will, just not as accurately. By the way, oil will raise the compression on even a good cylinder, just not nearly as much. It may raise a good cylinder 10 pounds whereas one with bad rings will go up 40 pounds.

If you're wondering about the crankcase venting, just disconnect the vent hose from the PCV valve, leave it open to the air and plug the vacuum side of the hose and see what happens then. You might try this first.

I know this sounds pretty obvious, but have you checked the oil level in the crankcase? If it's too high the crank is going to be whipping the oil up like a Hamilton Beech blender. If for some reason there's more oil in the crankcase now than what you put in, drain it out to make sure there's no anti-freeze in it. If it hasn't been run for a while, you can always drain just a bit out because the anti-freeze will be at the bottom. If you find coolant or the oil is emulsified into something that looks like a chocolate shake, don't run the engine! This means you most likely have a head gasket or cracked head leaking coolant and anti-freeze will glue an engine so tight, you'll never get it apart. Ever. Been there, done that. Oh, a cracked head will often times pressure up the cooling system, so if it keeps forcing coolant out the cap or overflow when running, that's not good. When running, look down the filler hole in the radiator and if you see bubbles, cracked head. Do this starting out COLD!!! DO NOT remove the cap on a hot engine!!!

Don't panic, it's probably something insignificant, or at least I hope so. Good luck!

GTtim
10-14-2006, 10:56 AM
Along the lines of an overfilled crankcase, because it is an Avanti a bad fuel pump could cause gas to flow into the crankcase, couldn't it?

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

John Kirchhoff
10-14-2006, 09:01 PM
Yes, a leaking fuel pump could run gasoline into the crankcase. They usually have a drain hole so if the diaphram does leak, it runs out rather than into the crackcase. But sometimes those holes get plugged up. Like the time I had 20+ quarts of an oil-diesel mixture in a 12 quart crankcase.

sbca96
10-15-2006, 02:34 AM
Just to clarify, Avanti, Lark, Hawk or Chevy Corvette, if its got a
mechanical fuel pump it CAN leak fuel into the crankcase through the
diaphram. This is not an Avanti-only problem.;)

Tom

GTtim
10-15-2006, 10:38 AM
I thought that the problem of the crankcase filling up with gasoline was more of a problem with an Avanti because the fuel tank is higher and gravity will bring the gas to the engine. With Larks and Hawks you'd have to have the car parked nose down on a slope, wouldn't you?

Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

John Kirchhoff
10-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Actually a leaking diaphram will leak more so when in use since there's going to be several pounds of pressure on the fuel side looking for a way to get out. When not in use, the static pressure of the fuel alone may not be enough to make it's way through a pin hole, but when under pressure it's a different story. Low oil pressure is a good sign of oil dilution with gasoline. The oil will be thinner than usual and if you smell it, it even has the familiar gasoline scent. On the bright side, if the diaphram is leaking that much, chances are the car won't start or will run very badly because of low fuel pressure. Don't worry, it's something that happens very infrequently. I don't want you having a nervous breakdown from worrying about worst case scenarios.

jpiatchek
10-15-2006, 06:09 PM
Gentleman--I just got finished checking the compression with a brand new gauge. All cylinders are between 122 low and one at 130. Most all are at 125. Putting oil in the plug holes increases compression about 10-15 lbs across the board. I might add this car has R2 heads that have been reworked by Studebaker Heaven about 10,000 miles ago and are supposed to be at 9:1 compression ratio. It does not have the high compression of the R1 heads. It supposedly has R2 lower compression pistons according to the bills and receipt I have. It is supposed to have a 5 angle valve job and chevy conversion valve train done by Studebaker Heaven, but this was all done about 10 years and 10,000 miles ago. With both PC valve hose disconnected from the car and PCV, there is some blow by coming from the big hose. I have not tried disconnecting the small hose from the PCV valve and test driving it yet as I had to get a new compression gauge and it check that first. A coupe of the plugs are light tan colored and the rest are a pale white color.Anyone have any further suggestions? Is 125 compression OK? The engine was not red hot in that I had to go get a new gauge cause my old one was inop. The engine was warm to the touch.

Roscomacaw
10-15-2006, 06:11 PM
I've read all the posts here and I have yet to see one thing mentioned. Since that larger hose from the breather pipe leads to the air cleaner, if there's as much blow-by as we're talking about here, there should be oil evident inside the air cleaner or dripping from it, given how an R1 air cleaner's constructed (assuming, of course, you have an R1 air cleaner). If there's NOT any evident, you'd wanna check (as silly as it may seem) to see that that length of hose that goes to the air cleaner isn't choked with something!
I've seen those damned Mud Daubers make nests in lots of hoses and apertures when something sits for a time.

The mileage isn't a guarantee that it can't be worn or broken in some way. I helped a friend who had what was a supposedly LOW-mileage rebuild on an R2 in an Avanti. #7 piston was busted around it's skirt and when you'd get on it a bit, oil would exude from that engine everywhere.[xx(] YET - it didn't run too bad in spite of it's problems.

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

jpiatchek
10-15-2006, 06:17 PM
One more thing, on this engine there is what appears to be a tiny oil line the plugs into the cap on top of the block in front of the manifold in front of the valley cover(I think where the old style oil filter mounted on older style engines) The line is about five inches long and has a fitting going into the head on the drivers side. The 289 engine in my other Stude(not R1) does not have this configuration. If I remember, there is a plug in the head and not a fitting on the cap in front of the valley cover. Is this normal on an R1. Thanks John

Roscomacaw
10-15-2006, 06:23 PM
That line's buying you nothing except maybe a loss in some of the oil pressure! That is, assuming it's actually open inside. The earlier engines that used that head tap point, they used a brass fitting that had a restricted orfice so that raw oil pressure didn't pressurize the oil filter and cause too much of a drop in pressure. I'd think you could safely eliminate that line. Sounds like someone was unsure of it's function and was afraid to eliminate it![B)]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

jpiatchek
10-15-2006, 06:25 PM
Reply to Mr. BIggs--The big hose is in fact connected to a R1 air cleaner. THe element inside is a K&N, but there is no evidence of oil dripping from it. It has a small discoloration in the filter, but the filter or the inside of the hose is not wet. Most of the oil is coming from the oil breather caps and leaking on the vaiue covers. After an 80 mile drive yeaterday, there was oil on the covers that I could see running down them. Enough that I had to wife off. It is also coming from what seems to be the distributor where is meets the block. Again, not drastic amounts, but noticeable after a good run.

John Kirchhoff
10-15-2006, 11:11 PM
Your compression readings sound great. I think the manual says something higher, but like I said, there's many other factors that can affect the actual reading. The reading are VERY even, lucky you! A 10-15 pound increase with oil added to the cylinders is also very normal. Sounds like the rings and valves are in great shape.

I know what Mr. Biggs is talking about. I had a 318 Chrysler industrial engine that went to using large amounts of oil with lots of blow by from the crankcase vent tube as well as the two valve cover vents/filler holes. When I took that guy apart, the skirts on 6 of 8 pistons came out in pieces. A few pieces were in the bottom of the oil pan, but most were held in place as long as the piston was in the cylinder but literally fell to pieces when removed. I'm not really sure what the cause was, I can't see over-reving because it had a belt drive govener but it did have a lot of hours.

You may want to get it warmed up and disconnect the crankcase breather and remove the oil filler caps. Run it at a higher rpm, not over-reving, but maybe 2000 rpm. Also try reving it up several times to increase cylinder pressures and note if lots of fumes are exiting the vent tube and or filler cap holes. Some blow by is normal but the fumes shouldn't actually BLOW out. On my Chrysler the filler holes were chuffing out fumes like a little locomotive smoke stack. I could actually feel the air on my face from 18-14 inches away. If you aren't getting much, a possibility could be the oil drain holes in the back of they cylinder heads could be gooed up from years of funky oil. However, I doubt both would be equally plugged or restricted. If anything, it makes me think excessive crankcase pressures are coming through the drain holes preventing the oil from draining back into the crankcase. It then piles up under the valve covers making it much easier for the blow by to force it out the filler holes. If this is the case, be careful about driving because you can starve the oil pump when all the oil's upstairs.

If you do get lots of blow by fumes, it might not be a bad idea to drop the oil pan, see if there's any metal chunks in the bottom and get a good strong light and peer up and look at the piston skirts. If they're oily, get a can of starting fluid to spray on them to clean the oil off. If you need to, you can often times swap the nozzels off of a can of carb cleaner so you can use that little red tube that always gets lost to better direct the spray. If worse comes to worse and a skirt or skirts are broken, you can remove the piston and rod with out pulling the engine but you will have to pull the intake manifold and head.

Good luck.

sbca96
10-16-2006, 01:08 AM
No offense to those that have posted, but that compression is pretty
low for an engine with only 10k on it. My '60 289, with 20k & 9.25:1
compression pulled over 180 psi in each cylinder COLD. 125 sounds as
if its an old tired motor. I would expect compression that low on a
stock 8:1 289 with dish pistons & 100k plus miles. I remember that a
259 I had years ago was 125 psi around, the engine had plenty of pep
and ran smooth, but blew oil out on the freeway. I added an extra
vent cap at the front to help it out. The R1 with its better vents is
going to hide blowby better. Sounds like there is a mechanical issue.

Its possible that they used chrome moly rings, and they never seated.
I used stock cast rings because everything I read pointed to the moly
rings not wearing into the Stude tough block. Maybe the valves are a
bit tight and you have compression leakage into the intake at higher
RPM thats causing the PCV system to stop working on the freeway.

Tom

Mike
10-16-2006, 03:31 AM
I would pull the vent stack on the side of the oil pan. Since the blow by isn't coming out of it, I suspect it's plugged.
Do you have the correct breather caps on the valve covers? They should have two small holes, (3/16"?), inside, where the clip that holds them on is. If you aren't using these restricted breathers, you might get oil dripping, since there aren't any baffles in the covers.
Mike M.

Mike
10-16-2006, 04:44 AM
That oil line sounds superfluous. Depending on how restricted it is, it could be spraying a lot of extra oil onto the timing gears. The gears are supposed to be oiled by the small hole in the oil pressure control valve, or the oil it releases.
Air flow in the crankcase ventilation system is supposed to be in the valve cover breathers; and out the oil pan stack. At low speeds, it goes into the carb base via the PCV valve. At higher speeds it goes into the air filter via the larger hose.
If excessive blow by was the problem, I would expect to see it at that large hose. There would be oil all over the air filter.
Mike M.

John Kirchhoff
10-16-2006, 11:06 AM
I agree the compression readings sound low compared to what the manual suggests. But the lowest being 3 pounds below and the highest being 5 pounds above average is very, very little variance. In my experience, I've never found that all cylinders wear that evenly. If the rings were worn or not seating, there should have been a much higher increase in compresion when oil was added. In my experience, oil may add 10 pounds to a good cylinder but 30-40 to the bad one immediately next to it. Also to consider a somewhat tired battery can make a big difference. I checked the compression on a high mileage bike once and charging the battery added 30 pounds to the readings and much relief to my worried mind. Component temperatures can also affect readings. Once had an engine with piston slap on one cylinder when cold. When cold, it would read 10-12# less than the other three but when warmed up well, all were higher and the loose one was within just a few pounds of the others. I did regular compression checks for 100,000 miles on that engine and readings would vary up and down each time I checked (10,000 miles apart), I assume from differences in cranking speed and engine temperature. However, there was a gradual downward trend in readings as the miles piled up.

It's really hard to equate worn or leaking compression rings to oil consumption. Leaking compression rings can hide the effects of a worn oil ring, while you can have adequately functioning compression rings but use lots of oil from a worn oil ring. A couple of times I've had the top three compression rings burned completely in two on a 5 ring diesel piston. Blow by was generous to say the least, but oil consumption was no more than usual.

Your comment on the moly rings was very accurate Tom. In addition, it's possible some of the compression rings could have been installed upside down. I've found the dot found on some rings can be either the top or bottom depending upon the manufacturer, so reading the instructions is a MUST! But if the blow by problem is a recent occurance, unseated or mis-installed rings shouldn't be the problem.

jpiatchek, is this a sudden, recent problem or something that's been nagging you for a long time? Sudden means something happened suddenly while gradually getting worse sounds like something that's worn and getting more worn or wasn't done right in the first place. Hang in there!

Roscomacaw
10-16-2006, 11:49 AM
Again, I'm with Mike here in that there ought to be some evidence of oil on the air filter. If you're pushing it out the breather caps and distributor, there should be some (oil) evident where that nipple on the air cleaner top cover sits next to the air filter element.
Also, I vote to do away with that useless oil line from the head to the block. It's dumping excess oil into the lifter valley area and maybe onto the timing gears as John suggests. Get a 1/8th inch male pipe plug and put it where that fitting is screwed into the head. Plug the hole in the little cover plate as well.:)



Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

John Kirchhoff
10-16-2006, 04:05 PM
Yep, I also agree with you guys about checking the air filter. That's why I mentioned reving the engine and checking for blow by fumes out of the crankcase vent and filler holes to actually get some idea of the volume of gas. Not much means it isn't blow by from the crankcase. That's also why I mentioned disconnecting the vent hose and plugging the vacuum side to see if that made any difference. If oil still escapes the valve covers it's doubtful it's blow by causing the problem.

Mr. Biggs, you mentioned oil being dumped into the lifter area. If that's what is happening, the action of the push rods could actually be lifting the oil from the valley up into the valve cover area. That's how the GM stud and rocker assembly gets oil up there or the same way your kids get their drinking straw full of soda with the old thumb over the hole trick. As the rocker arms become worn, they tend to lose a fair amount of oil which ends up in the valve cover area. All of this extra oil combined with even a normal amount of blow by could be making the valley and head drain holes inadequate for the job. The excess oil in the valley could also explain the oil around the distributor.

jpiatchek
10-16-2006, 05:12 PM
I just bought the vehicle recently, but the prevous owner said it did some of this while he owned it for the last 4 years, but not enough to concern him. Again, there is visible blowby coming from the large vent hose that goes to the breather, but very little evidence of of wetness.THere is visable blowby when the breather caps are removed when the engine is hot. The timing gear cover, oilpan and rear main show absolutely no evidence of leaking. He said he just had the valves adjusted recently by a competent mechanic. It has had the Chevy valve train update and the valves are a touch noisy. The previous owner said the noisiness was caused by the Chevy valve train conversion, again done by a reputable Studebaker performance shop. Could misadjusted valves cause a problem in lower compression? AGIN, VACUUM IS STEADY BETWEEN 17 OR 18 AT IDLE. THere does not seem to be evidence of smoking out the back, but after a good run there will be little specks of carbon on the bumper that smears a litle when I wipe it with a chamios. Lastly, The engine was only warm to the touch when I did the test, because I was gone for over an hour buying a new compression gauge after pulling the plugs. How much difference in compression reading would an almost cold engine have on the readings? Thanks for everyone's help on this. John

sbca96
10-16-2006, 08:16 PM
When you are logged in, you can delete your own posts.;)
You use the little trash can at the end, right above the post you want
to delete. It will ask you for your screen name & password.

Tom

jpiatchek
10-16-2006, 10:16 PM
Tomorrow night when the rain quits, I will disconnect the PCV and give the car a good run. If that doesn't help, I will disconnect the small oil line and cap it and see what happens. I suspect this may make a difference. It could be that the rockers are worn, because the receipts show they were replaced with good used ones in the early 90's, maybe 20-25,000 miles ago. However, I assume they were good and usable when they rebuilt the heads 10,000 miles ago or they would not have used them seeing all the money they spent on everything else. May try readjusting the valves. By the way, just stuck my finger into the big hose that goes to the airfilter and it was dry of any oily residue. Looked inside the breather tube while the engine was running and could see oil dripping down the rockers arm on the passenger side. Any chance changing oil from 10w40 to 20w50 would help? Won"t drive it much in the cold weather.

Mike
10-17-2006, 05:09 AM
Did you look inside the breather caps? Are they the restricted type I described? Sometimes the clip is turned so it's over the two holes. There are two little ridges to keep the clip positioned right.
A limited amount of air is supposed to go IN there. If a lot of air can come OUT, it would bring oil with it.
R3 & R4 engines got away with unrestricted breathers because there were so many of them,(five). Air flow through one of them would be lower velocity; and oil could drop out, back into the engine.
The only cut away side view of a Stude V8, that I could find, is in the 1951 SAE paper. The space below the oil filler tube, which is blocked off on full flow engines, opens into the timing gears, and looks like it's partitioned off from the tappet gallery. Early engines used the oil feed from the head to lube the fuel pump linkage through a 1/32" restriction. That oil fell onto the timing gears. Mike M.

jpiatchek
10-17-2006, 01:48 PM
Mike---The breathers are the standard chrome breathers that Stude International and others sell. The outside edges of the inside of the caps are filled with copper color mesh and have about a dozen holes around the diameter of the outer ridge of the cap. I assume when the mesh gets a little oil in them they start dripping. Is this the type you are speaking of? They are the only kind I am familiar with. John

Mike
10-17-2006, 03:00 PM
The R3 & R4 breathers are a different part # and don't have restrictions, although they look the same on the outside. You have to look inside, where the pipe on the valve cover goes, and the clip that keeps them on hides. On an R1 or R2 breather, air and oil from inside the valve cover would have to pass through two approximately 3/16" holes, to get to the mesh and all the holes around the rim. It's much easier to go back to the crankcase and out the stack to the suction at the PCV valve or the low pressure area at the air filter. The breather caps, at atmospheric pressure and with restricted flow, are supposed to be air inlets for the ventilation system. The R1 & R2 crankcase vent system is explained in the SAE Avanti paper, #630048. Air flow, in at the valve covers and out at the crankcase, is supposed to help return oil to the pan.
Vendors sometimes play fast and loose with part #'s. I've heard of unrestricted breathers substituted before.
Mike M.

jpiatchek
10-17-2006, 04:29 PM
Mike- Good description. I will check the breather caps when I get home tonight and see. As an alternative, I have found some Edelbrock caps that have resrictors built in so the oil can't pass, but it will still breath and flow air. This. in fact, may be where the problem lies. The mysterious oil line may be the cause of the distributor leaking. Won't get home til late tonight, but will examine the breather caps and if wrong, try the Edelbrock. If that works, I will get the correct caps. I know Studebaker International only in the last year even carried any chrome breather caps. I'm not sure it's not one size fits all. The Oil line will have to wait until I can get the correct size caps. O'Reilly Automotive did not have the sizes I need in stock. Thanks

Roscomacaw
10-17-2006, 05:24 PM
Mike is right about the oil line dumping onto the timing gears and NOT the valley as I'd indicated. Heh - I had to go out and look at one of the bare blocks I have here to set myself straight. It's a lesson I'll not forget, you can bet.
Thing is, I'd just wrestled a couple of blocks around yesterday morning (making room for the engine I just brought home) And I'd remembered sorta mindlessly running the strap I used thru the hole and back up thru the valley opening. DUH! It was the distrubutor hole I'd used - not that oil filler stack mounting. That filler hole DOES dump oil onto the cam gear and it shouldn't be a problem since that's where every V8 from '51 thru '62 dumped filtered oil after it was fed thru the element.[:I]


Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

jpiatchek
10-18-2006, 12:15 PM
Mike--My breather caps are chrome and at the bottom of the breather, beyond the metal clips, there are four small holes about the size of a Pea that air or oil can enter and then get to the mesh and drip out on the valve covers. Not a lot of area. It's also possible that I haven't been pushing them on hard enough and making good contact on the stack on the valve covers. I see no grooves or slots indicating it should fit a certain way. Will be doing some test runs at noon today since I didn't want to take it out in the rain last night.

GTtim
10-18-2006, 10:10 PM
I have heard that the oil fill caps should be quite snug on the valve cover fillers. Some that are loose and sloppy fitting will allow oil to drip and be blown around by the fan.


Tim K.
'64 R2 GT Hawk

jpiatchek
10-19-2006, 05:28 PM
Had a good run in the car yesterday. Boy it runs strong! I tried disconnecting the PCV line and plugging the carb and it did not seem to help. I tried the new Edelbrock breather caps and they seem to have stopped the oil drip on the valve covers. I'm 90% sure the other leak is coming from the distributor, but a faint possiblity it may be coming from the back of the valley cover since it is so close. Any good way to check for sure? I also think there may be a little slop in the rocker arms. Will try readjusting the valves, since they are a little noisy and maybe change to 20x50 oil since it doesn't go out much in the cold weather. I'm happy I stopped the oil drip on the covers. I will probably leave the small oil return line alone because I'm not convinced it will make a difference. John

sbca96
10-19-2006, 06:47 PM
Are you sure your "distributor" leak is not coming from the oil line
to the oil pressure gauge?? Thats a common leak area. The hose has
to come from UNDER the stainless box, and can get cut by it. If that
turns out to be it, order a new one, and slit a piece of vacuum hose,
then slide it over the bottom edge of the stainless to protect the new
hose from being damaged.

Tom

jpiatchek
10-20-2006, 10:13 PM
I checked the oil line today and there are no leaks or splits in the line. So far, no leaks at the breathers with the new breather caps. Cars still run good. Think I will make a few more tests and then forget about it

Mike
10-21-2006, 08:47 AM
I checked the oil breathers on my R2. The two restrictor holes are only 1/8" in diameter. If the breathers from SI have four holes, and they are larger; that's a significant increase in area. They could very well allow air to carry a little oil out to the mesh in the cap, where it will drip onto the valve cover. I wonder if they are old R3/R4 breathers, or just incorrectly made reproductions of the R1/R2 parts.
If you have earlier rocker shafts, or just rockers that are worn a little, the increased oil in the valve cover adds to the vent problem, and could be the real cause, itself.
Mike M.

jpiatchek
10-21-2006, 11:02 AM
Mike--I think you are correct. I believe the rockers were purchased used, but in good condition, in the late 80's and have not been updated. I have a set of very old chrome breathers from my other Stude and they have no restrictions at all. I have another Stude with chrome breathers that is stored across town that has brand new chrome breathers on it. I will have to check and look at the restrictions. Anyway, in the meantime, The Edelbrock breathers have more retriction in them and that seem to have solved that problem. John

Mike
10-21-2006, 01:35 PM
Don't forget, the two 1/8" holes can hide under the clip, if it's turned wrong. The embossed ridges are supposed to hold the clip in the right position.
What do you figure "710 OIL" was. Does SI sell it, yet?
Mike M.

sbca96
10-21-2006, 05:53 PM
Please post the part number for the Edelbrock breather cap. Also make
sure that the reason its not leaking "yet" is that enough oil hasnt
got up into the breather cap to leak out yet. Its possible that the
ones on the engine were so saturated with oil it didnt take much.

Tom

jpiatchek
10-21-2006, 11:41 PM
Tom--I hear what you are saying and you could be right, but I don't think so. It seems like the underside vent of the Edelbrock's are pretty dry. I will keep an eye on them. I will clean the stock breathers and it will probably take some time for the oil to build up again. Then I will use them for cruise-ins and shows. The part number for the new breather is Edelbrock #4405. I bought them at PepBoys, but I am sure they can be bought at most auto parts that carry Edelbrock. They were about $11 each and they fit good and look good. I have an Edelbrock carb and they look right at home. John

jpiatchek
10-21-2006, 11:48 PM
Mike--No embossed ridges on any of my breathers, just 710 or OIL on the outside, depending on what side of the car you are looking from.

sbca96
10-22-2006, 05:20 AM
From the Edelbrock website :

Valve Cover Breathers
Our push-on style valve cover breathers contain an effective filter which traps oil vapor and prevents engine compartment contamination. Inscribed breathers come with rubber grommets and match our chrome valve covers. Fits any 1-1/4" diameter valve cover hole.

Round Breather #4405

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/accessories/images/4405.jpg

Round Breather with 90 nipple #4410

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/accessories/images200/4410.jpg

Those look real nice! Will work well with my Edelbrock carb and the
air cleaner I have for it.;)

Tom

Mike
10-22-2006, 08:51 AM
The embossed ribs are visable in the picture of the breathers in the newest SI catalog, p104. They lift the clip so it doesn't block the holes, if it's rotated out of position, too. Do we have incorrectly made reproduction parts, listed under a Stude part#, that aren't even as pictured in the catalog? Heavens!
Maybe you could drill out the rivet that holds the clip; and make a disc with the correct holes, to fit inside. The R1/R2 ventilation system was carefully thought out. Stude engineering seems very proud of it, in the SAE paper.
Mike M.

sbca96
10-22-2006, 05:49 PM
My R1 has the totally WRONG breather caps, I dont even know where they
are from. I think maybe some cheap Chinese ones. They dont fit right
either, and look like .... um .. yuck.

Tom

jpiatchek
10-22-2006, 06:34 PM
Mike-Thanks for your persistence. I checked the breather caps on my other 289 Stude. I bought them about 1 year ago from SI. They are exactly as you stated. Two small holes and a ridge to position the clips straight. They have smaller holes than the Edelbrock and the 4 holes in the current caps in my R1. I'm sure they are the remedy to the problem. I will replace the caps on my R1 with these and put the R1's caps in question on the 289 and see if they leak on the other engine. If they do leak, I will buy two new ones from SI. They are pricey at $25.00 each, but that's ok. I have 3 sets of chrome breather caps for the Stude and they are all different. These new ones have a better design and will do the trick. Problem solved. Now to find the distributor leak. Will try the small oil lines and check out the valley cover more thoroughly. I hate to go to the trouble to replace the gasket on the valley cover unless i'm sure it is leaking. Probably take a couple of weeks until I get it replaced, if that seems to be the culprit, but I don't think so. Thanks

jpiatchek
10-28-2006, 11:41 PM
I JUST REMOVED THE SMALL 5 INCH OIL LINE THAT WENT FROM THE DRIVERS SIDE HEAD TO THE OIL RETURN BLOCKOFF WHERE THE OIL FILTER USED TO GO. I AM WONDERING IF THIS WAS A MISTAKE. MAYBE IT WAS PUT IN TO DRAIN OIL FROM THE ROCKER CAVITY MORE QUICKLY. I'M WONDERING IF IF MIGHT BE IMPEDING THE DRAINAGE OF OIL BACK INTO THE BLOCK AND MAKE MATTTERS WORSE. I GUESS I WILL FIND OUT WHEN I DRIVE IT TOMORROW. I BUGGERED ONE OF THE FITTINGS TRYNG TO GET IT OUT AND WILL NEED TO FIND A NEW ONE IF I MADE MATTERS WORSE. ANY THOUGHTS FROM ANYONE? THANKS JOHN

StudeRich
10-29-2006, 01:54 AM
John; remove ALL of the fittings in the front of the left head and install a 1/8" pipe plug from your local parts store or even a plumbing/hardware store directly in the hole in the head, you can do the same with the hole in the oil filler block-off plate. You do not need fittings!

I do not see how you possibly could hurt anything by doing that, since your car is probably the only car in the world that had that stupid line, all of our cars work great without it! It has nothing to do with drainback, having that line coming from the oil press. gallery and dumping it into the timing gears will only reduce your oil pressure and maybe the amount of oil going to left rockers.
Rich.:)

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

Roscomacaw
10-29-2006, 02:39 PM
I just wanna echo what Rich says: That line WAS NOT for head drainage. Whyever it's put there, it's wrong. All that line is buying you is loss of precious oil pressure.[8]

Further, it is indeed "OIL" on those caps. The OIL/7OI is just duplicate spellings of OIL so you can read it no matter how the caps situated. Since it IS where you put oil in, that's what it says on the cap![:I]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

jpiatchek
10-29-2006, 07:08 PM
I put a plug in both places and went for a good hard drive today and everything seems to be ok. The proper breather caps seems to have stopped the oil dripping from the breathers. I still do have oil leaking from what appears to be the distributor holddown. It could possibly be from the valley cover back by the distributor. Could oil leak from the back of the valley cover, or is that a real remote possibility?

N8N
10-29-2006, 08:54 PM
If the gasket under the distributor is missing and/or torn, it *will* leak. Also take another look at the rubber hose for the oil pressure gauge, that is another common cause of oil leakage in that area and if it goes completely, it will dump a lot of oil real fast.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel