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52-fan
02-29-2008, 10:27 AM
I have a 1947 M-5 that I bought in 1973 with a hole in the block. I disassembled it in 1975, moved, and never got back together. I have pondered restoring it with a Champion engine and overdrive (which I have had for 30 years) or building a rod of some sort. I have seen a few M-5s with V-8s, but I have never really talked to the builder about firewall mods and the like. I know that the Ms don't have much cab room stock. Does anyone have an opinion on the usefulness of such a truck after it was modified?
If I do build the truck, (after the Daytona and 52) I want something I can drive. Trailer queens are not my idea of fun. I know there are lots opinions out there. Let's have it!;)

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

Flashback
02-29-2008, 10:36 AM
I drove a 47 M5 for 12 years, for everyday trans. The engine was a
four cylinder mustang with auto. I installed a gm power steering box and an 57 olds rear end. All else was original. I had to do the brakes twice during this time but no other problems. Remember in a vehicle that was driven about 50 when new, if you are going to go fast and want luxury let tha t be your guide. I loved mine the way it was, but it was not fast and I had to respect the stopping distance. Good luck.

Tex in Alabama
53 C coupe

Tex E. Grier

Flashback
02-29-2008, 10:36 AM
I drove a 47 M5 for 12 years, for everyday trans. The engine was a
four cylinder mustang with auto. I installed a gm power steering box and an 57 olds rear end. All else was original. I had to do the brakes twice during this time but no other problems. Remember in a vehicle that was driven about 50 when new, if you are going to go fast and want luxury let tha t be your guide. I loved mine the way it was, but it was not fast and I had to respect the stopping distance. Good luck.

Tex in Alabama
53 C coupe

Tex E. Grier

52-fan
02-29-2008, 11:13 AM
So you're saying you used the stock front brakes with Olds rear brakes?
I saw an M-5 with a S-10 V6 installed once, but I hadn't considered a four cylinder. Any pictures of the install?

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 11:13 AM
So you're saying you used the stock front brakes with Olds rear brakes?
I saw an M-5 with a S-10 V6 installed once, but I hadn't considered a four cylinder. Any pictures of the install?

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

JRoberts
02-29-2008, 11:25 AM
Another thought would be to use the Champion six and if you are not planning on towing anything or doing any heavy hauling use a 3spd/od tranny out of a car. This might give you a more drivable combination. Also remember that there are some really cool hot rod parts for that engine through folks like Cathcart. You could also regear the rear end to make it a more pleasant driver as well, depending on what the gearing is now. The overdrive might be enough to overcome a lower rear end gear ration. Just some thoughts.

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

JRoberts
02-29-2008, 11:25 AM
Another thought would be to use the Champion six and if you are not planning on towing anything or doing any heavy hauling use a 3spd/od tranny out of a car. This might give you a more drivable combination. Also remember that there are some really cool hot rod parts for that engine through folks like Cathcart. You could also regear the rear end to make it a more pleasant driver as well, depending on what the gearing is now. The overdrive might be enough to overcome a lower rear end gear ration. Just some thoughts.

Joe Roberts
'61 R1 Champ
'65 Cruiser
Editor of "The Down Easterner"
Eastern North Carolina Chapter

52-fan
02-29-2008, 11:40 AM
My original thought was to build a nice little Champion engine and pretty it up with a dual intake and aluminum head. I got the old speed parts years ago before the prices went through the roof. A Cathcart modified engine would be super, but I don't have the coin right now.
I got a 3 speed trans with overdrive for a Champion powered truck from Bakertown Custom Garage when my brother and I were at the South Bend meet in 1978 and always figured that I would adapt the original T-90 top shifter if I went that route. The rearend is a 5:38, I believe, and might have to be changed even with overdrive.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 11:40 AM
My original thought was to build a nice little Champion engine and pretty it up with a dual intake and aluminum head. I got the old speed parts years ago before the prices went through the roof. A Cathcart modified engine would be super, but I don't have the coin right now.
I got a 3 speed trans with overdrive for a Champion powered truck from Bakertown Custom Garage when my brother and I were at the South Bend meet in 1978 and always figured that I would adapt the original T-90 top shifter if I went that route. The rearend is a 5:38, I believe, and might have to be changed even with overdrive.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

JBOYLE
02-29-2008, 11:58 AM
How about the old Ford straight Six?
There are several sizes... 223 ci, up to 272 (I believe).
They were current from mid-late 50s until 64 and powered Falcons, Fairlaines, full-size pickups and vans.
Size should not be a problem.

You should be able to find one with a 4-speed truck tranny attached.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

JBOYLE
02-29-2008, 11:58 AM
How about the old Ford straight Six?
There are several sizes... 223 ci, up to 272 (I believe).
They were current from mid-late 50s until 64 and powered Falcons, Fairlaines, full-size pickups and vans.
Size should not be a problem.

You should be able to find one with a 4-speed truck tranny attached.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

Flashback
02-29-2008, 11:59 AM
You have a great idea on what you want to do. Yes I used the original
front brakes with the olds rear. The reason for the odd combination was I had the stuff on hand. The Champion engine you are talking about would be great even with the original rear end. The O.D. would make the low gears go away, and you would have the best of both worlds. It would have enough gear to haul reasonable loads out of O.D. and at the same time run good on the highway in O.D. I think you would have a fun vehicle. No I don't have pictures, but the 2.3 ford engine with auto was too easy to install. It looked at home. NO CUTTING.

Tex in Al.
53 C coupe

Tex E. Grier

Flashback
02-29-2008, 11:59 AM
You have a great idea on what you want to do. Yes I used the original
front brakes with the olds rear. The reason for the odd combination was I had the stuff on hand. The Champion engine you are talking about would be great even with the original rear end. The O.D. would make the low gears go away, and you would have the best of both worlds. It would have enough gear to haul reasonable loads out of O.D. and at the same time run good on the highway in O.D. I think you would have a fun vehicle. No I don't have pictures, but the 2.3 ford engine with auto was too easy to install. It looked at home. NO CUTTING.

Tex in Al.
53 C coupe

Tex E. Grier

Bill Elbert
02-29-2008, 12:10 PM
My first suggestion would be to search the Studebaker Truck Talk site where this issue has been discussed several time. I continually use the search feature to research much needed info for my 5 M-series. You rearend ratio is probably a 4.88 Dana 41. There are a few options for the rearend ratio beside doing the OD Transmission. I personaly like mine all original, but I life in the tulies and traffic is not much of an issue.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/23885/

Bill Elbert
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/337006150_f69e452789_m.jpg
59 4E11
58 Champion
57 3E11
48 M16
46 M15
41 M5

Bill Elbert
02-29-2008, 12:10 PM
My first suggestion would be to search the Studebaker Truck Talk site where this issue has been discussed several time. I continually use the search feature to research much needed info for my 5 M-series. You rearend ratio is probably a 4.88 Dana 41. There are a few options for the rearend ratio beside doing the OD Transmission. I personaly like mine all original, but I life in the tulies and traffic is not much of an issue.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/23885/

Bill Elbert
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/337006150_f69e452789_m.jpg
59 4E11
58 Champion
57 3E11
48 M16
46 M15
41 M5

52-fan
02-29-2008, 12:45 PM
My ratio is a 5 something. I remember that much for sure. It has been over 30 years since I looked, but the ratio tag was still on it and I'm sure it still is. Several years ago I saw an M for sale that had a higher geared rearend out of a 49 Commander in it. As I recall, the width was right and the truck wheels still fit. The PO didn't even remove the car spring pads. He just welded in new ones to match the truck springs. Of course, finding a donor Commander might be harder than using a later rearend if needed.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 12:45 PM
My ratio is a 5 something. I remember that much for sure. It has been over 30 years since I looked, but the ratio tag was still on it and I'm sure it still is. Several years ago I saw an M for sale that had a higher geared rearend out of a 49 Commander in it. As I recall, the width was right and the truck wheels still fit. The PO didn't even remove the car spring pads. He just welded in new ones to match the truck springs. Of course, finding a donor Commander might be harder than using a later rearend if needed.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

studeefrek
02-29-2008, 01:21 PM
I have a 50 commander rear end still in parts car and several tranys in southern alabama and a 50 champion engin compleat bernies@centurytel.net

studeefrek
02-29-2008, 01:21 PM
I have a 50 commander rear end still in parts car and several tranys in southern alabama and a 50 champion engin compleat bernies@centurytel.net

gordr
02-29-2008, 01:25 PM
Gary Ash has an M5 with overdrive, and he posts here frequently. I'm sure he can tell what it's driving qualities are like.

If you have the dual manifold and aluminum head on hand now, then all you need do to complete the look is make (or have made) a split exhaust manifold, and run dual pipes. A friend has this in a '53 Champion coupe, and it is really trip to see and hear it. Not super fast. but the cool factor can't be beat. I'd suggest using a passenger car T86 O/D tranny which should bolt up to the M5 bellhousing, but the input shaft will need to be shortened. And use a model 44 rear axle with either 4.10 or 4.27 gears. It will get out of the hole OK, and still be able to cruise the Interstate at 65 or better.

And I think you could a find a Turner brake kit to work, giving you good disc brakes.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

gordr
02-29-2008, 01:25 PM
Gary Ash has an M5 with overdrive, and he posts here frequently. I'm sure he can tell what it's driving qualities are like.

If you have the dual manifold and aluminum head on hand now, then all you need do to complete the look is make (or have made) a split exhaust manifold, and run dual pipes. A friend has this in a '53 Champion coupe, and it is really trip to see and hear it. Not super fast. but the cool factor can't be beat. I'd suggest using a passenger car T86 O/D tranny which should bolt up to the M5 bellhousing, but the input shaft will need to be shortened. And use a model 44 rear axle with either 4.10 or 4.27 gears. It will get out of the hole OK, and still be able to cruise the Interstate at 65 or better.

And I think you could a find a Turner brake kit to work, giving you good disc brakes.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Dan White
02-29-2008, 02:17 PM
If you really want to be different why not put either a Packard 8 or a Hudson Hornet 6 in your M5. The Hudson can be had with a hydramatic and would look pretty cool. Dare to be different!

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Dan White
02-29-2008, 02:17 PM
If you really want to be different why not put either a Packard 8 or a Hudson Hornet 6 in your M5. The Hudson can be had with a hydramatic and would look pretty cool. Dare to be different!

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

52-fan
02-29-2008, 02:17 PM
Is there an advantage to using a passenger car T-86 as opposed to the truck version I already have?
As far as the split manifold, one of the men I work with is an old time mechanic did many of these in "the day". I suspect he would be happy to weld up a manifold for me if I got it prepped.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 02:17 PM
Is there an advantage to using a passenger car T-86 as opposed to the truck version I already have?
As far as the split manifold, one of the men I work with is an old time mechanic did many of these in "the day". I suspect he would be happy to weld up a manifold for me if I got it prepped.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Dan,
The Packard and Hudson engines would no doubt be unusual, but I don't have one nor do I know anything about them. Also, wouldn't a Packard 8 be too long? I have wondered about a Commander six just for the extra displacement, but I have no speed goodies for one and don't think it will fit without losing leg room in the cab.
I'm still open to ideas as this is just a planning session for a future project at this time.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 02:24 PM
Dan,
The Packard and Hudson engines would no doubt be unusual, but I don't have one nor do I know anything about them. Also, wouldn't a Packard 8 be too long? I have wondered about a Commander six just for the extra displacement, but I have no speed goodies for one and don't think it will fit without losing leg room in the cab.
I'm still open to ideas as this is just a planning session for a future project at this time.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

gordr
02-29-2008, 02:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by 52-fan

Dan,
The Packard and Hudson engines would no doubt be unusual, but I don't have one nor do I know anything about them. Also, wouldn't a Packard 8 be too long? I have wondered about a Commander six just for the extra displacement, but I have no speed goodies for one and don't think it will fit without losing leg room in the cab.
I'm still open to ideas as this is just a planning session for a future project at this time.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas


I think either the Packard 8 or Hudson 6 would be way too long for the engine compartment. M16 trucks used the Commander 6, and they required a firewall with an indentation it to accommodate the longer engine.

If you have the truck T86 or T90 with overdrive, use it. Both it and the car one are 1:1 in 3rd. Difference is in gear spread and in type of gears. Trucks used straight-cut gears, which are noisy; cars used helical gears which are quieter. Moot point, rolling down the Interstate in 3rd over, but quite a difference in traffic driving.

I think even the smallest Ford six is long enough that you'd need to scoop the firewall as for the Commander engine.

If "dare to be different" turns your crank, how about a 4 cylinder Nissan Diesel with 5 speed, as used in some of their trucks in the '80s? Should be no space issues, and the fuel economy would be fantastic.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

gordr
02-29-2008, 02:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by 52-fan

Dan,
The Packard and Hudson engines would no doubt be unusual, but I don't have one nor do I know anything about them. Also, wouldn't a Packard 8 be too long? I have wondered about a Commander six just for the extra displacement, but I have no speed goodies for one and don't think it will fit without losing leg room in the cab.
I'm still open to ideas as this is just a planning session for a future project at this time.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas


I think either the Packard 8 or Hudson 6 would be way too long for the engine compartment. M16 trucks used the Commander 6, and they required a firewall with an indentation it to accommodate the longer engine.

If you have the truck T86 or T90 with overdrive, use it. Both it and the car one are 1:1 in 3rd. Difference is in gear spread and in type of gears. Trucks used straight-cut gears, which are noisy; cars used helical gears which are quieter. Moot point, rolling down the Interstate in 3rd over, but quite a difference in traffic driving.

I think even the smallest Ford six is long enough that you'd need to scoop the firewall as for the Commander engine.

If "dare to be different" turns your crank, how about a 4 cylinder Nissan Diesel with 5 speed, as used in some of their trucks in the '80s? Should be no space issues, and the fuel economy would be fantastic.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

52-fan
02-29-2008, 03:10 PM
Boy, a Nissan diesel would be different all right. Talk about something I know nothing about! I really lean toward either a Champion engine or a V-8 of some kind (no Chevies need apply). I know an SDC member has an M-5 with a 259 in it, but I think the firewall suffered.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 03:10 PM
Boy, a Nissan diesel would be different all right. Talk about something I know nothing about! I really lean toward either a Champion engine or a V-8 of some kind (no Chevies need apply). I know an SDC member has an M-5 with a 259 in it, but I think the firewall suffered.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

Flashback
02-29-2008, 03:37 PM
kEEP IN MIND YOUR TRUCK AND CAR HAVE A DIFFERENT LUG PATTERN Course we all have a little hot rodder, in us, right? So drilling and making fit is not to far out there. I still like your stude Idea for the drivetrain.

Tex in Al.
53 C

Tex E. Grier

Flashback
02-29-2008, 03:37 PM
kEEP IN MIND YOUR TRUCK AND CAR HAVE A DIFFERENT LUG PATTERN Course we all have a little hot rodder, in us, right? So drilling and making fit is not to far out there. I still like your stude Idea for the drivetrain.

Tex in Al.
53 C

Tex E. Grier

52-fan
02-29-2008, 03:54 PM
The wheel bolt pattern thing is why some people have used the late 40s to 1950 Commander rear end. I am told it has the truck bolt pattern. If I have to go to a different pattern I'm sure I could adapt something that would look and work well.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 03:54 PM
The wheel bolt pattern thing is why some people have used the late 40s to 1950 Commander rear end. I am told it has the truck bolt pattern. If I have to go to a different pattern I'm sure I could adapt something that would look and work well.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

jjones
02-29-2008, 05:04 PM
I have an M-5 with a 259 in it. It also has a Chevy TH 350 transmission, GM rearend, Mustang II front suspension with disk brakes, Corvette brake booster and master cylinder, and air conditioning. It will run 80 mph on the freeway all day long and handle city traffic too. I drive it almost daily and really enjoy it. I did have to move a portion of the firewall back 4 inches but it was a relatively easy job and has little affect on leg room.

On the other hand, if I do it again, I will go the Cathcart hot rod 6-banger route with a car overdrive transmission and rearend. I would also update with Turner front brakes (with the correct bolt pattern to match the rearend) and some type of better steering--Flaming River makes a rack steering for I-beam axles that looks pretty good and takes out the bump steer, supposedly. Basically, a stock truck updated for safety and driveability.

Jeff

jjones
02-29-2008, 05:04 PM
I have an M-5 with a 259 in it. It also has a Chevy TH 350 transmission, GM rearend, Mustang II front suspension with disk brakes, Corvette brake booster and master cylinder, and air conditioning. It will run 80 mph on the freeway all day long and handle city traffic too. I drive it almost daily and really enjoy it. I did have to move a portion of the firewall back 4 inches but it was a relatively easy job and has little affect on leg room.

On the other hand, if I do it again, I will go the Cathcart hot rod 6-banger route with a car overdrive transmission and rearend. I would also update with Turner front brakes (with the correct bolt pattern to match the rearend) and some type of better steering--Flaming River makes a rack steering for I-beam axles that looks pretty good and takes out the bump steer, supposedly. Basically, a stock truck updated for safety and driveability.

Jeff

bams50
02-29-2008, 06:13 PM
We're sitting at the STF dinner at York, and Gary Ash said to go stock!! He'll post some pics later[^]

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"With your Lark you're on your own, free as a bird, alive as a Lark. You've suddenly discovered that parking is a pleasure, traffic is a breeze, turning's no trick at all, and happiness is a thing called Larking!"

bams50
02-29-2008, 06:13 PM
We're sitting at the STF dinner at York, and Gary Ash said to go stock!! He'll post some pics later[^]

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"With your Lark you're on your own, free as a bird, alive as a Lark. You've suddenly discovered that parking is a pleasure, traffic is a breeze, turning's no trick at all, and happiness is a thing called Larking!"

Jessie J.
02-29-2008, 06:55 PM
I also own an M-5 that I've held unto for decades, always with the intention of doing a swap, and have collected the parts for several different possible drivetrains, (it is still 100% stock and original) I have everything from a Tri-Power equipped 390 Caddy, late 425-500 big-block Cads, a Mopar 360 with either an automatic, 4 speed, or o/d 4 speed tranny, 3 Studebaker V-8s, and an OHV Studebaker 6.
Over the years I have been able to personally examine several re-powered M-5s. Most larger V-8 swaps, including the Studebaker V-8s, require moving the firewall back by an inch or two, however this is only the vertical portion above the foot-rest area so doing so does not intrude significantly upon interior space, and some smaller sized V-8s, Chevy, Buick 215, (and maybe the Ford 289-302) will fit without moving the firewall. Obviously smaller engines like 4cyls. or V-6s will generally fit within the stock confines easier.
The engine choice is mostly a factor of what the intended use of the truck will be, and what you want. No choice will ever be perfect for every use, or be pleasing to everyone.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the simpler expedient of mounting a modern 5 speed behind a Studebaker 6 to provide an overdrive gear combined with the shifting ease of a modern all synchromesh transmission. Cathcart has an adapter available to adapt the cheap and readily available S-10 B-W 5 speed to the Champion 6s.

If you wanted to keep it "Studebaker", A "late" OHV Studebaker 6 fitted with a modern 5 speed would make for a really neat (and inexpensive) swap, that would likely run rings around the earlier flathead 6. With a little welding and fabrication, two or three small carbs could be adapted, and the exhaust manifold split for dual exhausts. Same basic block as the older Flathead, so it would easily fit within the same space, however the indent in the center of the firewall might need to be modified and extended higher to provide clearance for the higher OHV cyl. head (M-15 firewalls already have a larger indent)
A peculiarity of the Champion 6 is that it is basically three two cylinder engines, each two cylinders having siamesed bores making for an extremely short, and compact straight 6 cylinder configuration, most other manufactures "straight" 6 cyl. engines not employing similar design practice, are considerably longer.

Jessie J.
02-29-2008, 06:55 PM
I also own an M-5 that I've held unto for decades, always with the intention of doing a swap, and have collected the parts for several different possible drivetrains, (it is still 100% stock and original) I have everything from a Tri-Power equipped 390 Caddy, late 425-500 big-block Cads, a Mopar 360 with either an automatic, 4 speed, or o/d 4 speed tranny, 3 Studebaker V-8s, and an OHV Studebaker 6.
Over the years I have been able to personally examine several re-powered M-5s. Most larger V-8 swaps, including the Studebaker V-8s, require moving the firewall back by an inch or two, however this is only the vertical portion above the foot-rest area so doing so does not intrude significantly upon interior space, and some smaller sized V-8s, Chevy, Buick 215, (and maybe the Ford 289-302) will fit without moving the firewall. Obviously smaller engines like 4cyls. or V-6s will generally fit within the stock confines easier.
The engine choice is mostly a factor of what the intended use of the truck will be, and what you want. No choice will ever be perfect for every use, or be pleasing to everyone.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the simpler expedient of mounting a modern 5 speed behind a Studebaker 6 to provide an overdrive gear combined with the shifting ease of a modern all synchromesh transmission. Cathcart has an adapter available to adapt the cheap and readily available S-10 B-W 5 speed to the Champion 6s.

If you wanted to keep it "Studebaker", A "late" OHV Studebaker 6 fitted with a modern 5 speed would make for a really neat (and inexpensive) swap, that would likely run rings around the earlier flathead 6. With a little welding and fabrication, two or three small carbs could be adapted, and the exhaust manifold split for dual exhausts. Same basic block as the older Flathead, so it would easily fit within the same space, however the indent in the center of the firewall might need to be modified and extended higher to provide clearance for the higher OHV cyl. head (M-15 firewalls already have a larger indent)
A peculiarity of the Champion 6 is that it is basically three two cylinder engines, each two cylinders having siamesed bores making for an extremely short, and compact straight 6 cylinder configuration, most other manufactures "straight" 6 cyl. engines not employing similar design practice, are considerably longer.

52-fan
02-29-2008, 08:29 PM
Wow,[:0] I never expected such a huge response to the question. The interesting thing is that most of you come back to the same thing, the Champion engine, which is what I planned to do years ago. I guess if I was on a rodding site not many would support the Flathead six idea, but although I still read rod magazines I am SDC at heart. The T-5 transmission swap is intriguing, but I have the other parts so who knows what will happen.[?]

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
02-29-2008, 08:29 PM
Wow,[:0] I never expected such a huge response to the question. The interesting thing is that most of you come back to the same thing, the Champion engine, which is what I planned to do years ago. I guess if I was on a rodding site not many would support the Flathead six idea, but although I still read rod magazines I am SDC at heart. The T-5 transmission swap is intriguing, but I have the other parts so who knows what will happen.[?]

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
03-01-2008, 08:51 AM
Since we touched on the subject, has anyone on the forum had any actual experience putting a T-5 5 speed transmission behind a Stude Champion engine? I have seen info on V-8 swaps.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
03-01-2008, 08:51 AM
Since we touched on the subject, has anyone on the forum had any actual experience putting a T-5 5 speed transmission behind a Stude Champion engine? I have seen info on V-8 swaps.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

Transtar60
03-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Bill Cathcart has instructions/information/kit?
Check TURNING WHEELS or www.studebakervendors.com for his comtact information.

Another suggestion for an alternative drivetrain.
Find a 2wd Cherokee with 4.0 six and 5spd.

Its a little longer than a OHV or Champ flathead but HESCO sells a stroker kit, so you could have a 4.7(289cid)and a six cylinder at the same time.:D

http://racingstudebakers.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10056/5E13%20Pic%203.JPG
3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

Transtar60
03-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Bill Cathcart has instructions/information/kit?
Check TURNING WHEELS or www.studebakervendors.com for his comtact information.

Another suggestion for an alternative drivetrain.
Find a 2wd Cherokee with 4.0 six and 5spd.

Its a little longer than a OHV or Champ flathead but HESCO sells a stroker kit, so you could have a 4.7(289cid)and a six cylinder at the same time.:D

http://racingstudebakers.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10056/5E13%20Pic%203.JPG
3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

52-fan
03-01-2008, 04:14 PM
A 289 six sounds interesting ;). Unfortunately, a stroker kit sounds like $$$[:0].

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
03-01-2008, 04:14 PM
A 289 six sounds interesting ;). Unfortunately, a stroker kit sounds like $$$[:0].

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

Jessie J.
03-01-2008, 05:14 PM
Yep, I also like my Jeeps, I have a Cherokee 4.0 2 WD Pickup with a 5 speed, and a Cherokee Sport for my daily driver, so was able to just step out to the driveway and do some quick measuring. The 4.0 measures in at about 34" long from rear of cyl.head to front of the fan. My M-5 has an engine space of about 27" in length when measured from the radiator to the back of the stock firewall recess. (The Champ 6 is approximately 26" long)
Allowing around 2" for fan clearance, the 4.0 will require around 36" of engine compartment length, thus the M-5 fire-wall would need its recess deepened by around another 9"-10" to accommodate the 4.0, this would move the center portion of the firewall almost back to the stock dashboard location. This would very much intrude upon the M-5s already limited interior space, and create tight foot-wells similar to a Mini-van. You might be able to "fudge" a couple of inches by moving the radiator ahead, but there is very little room to play with under an M-5s pointy hood.
So this would not really be a very practical swap for the little M-5, most other modern 6 cyls. that likewise employ 7 main bearing designs, are of a similar length. This leaves the most practical and easiest swaps being the latter Stude OHV-6, various 4 bangers, V-6s, and the small V-8s, and even a large American V-8 while it might require moving the firewall back by 2"-4", would still likely be an easier and more satisfactory swap than what would be provided by any modern large displacement "straight" 6.
Some foreign produced straight 6s might be an exception, but in my case at least, I'd rather burn the thing to the ground, than even consider doing such a thing to a Studebaker.

Jessie J.
03-01-2008, 05:14 PM
Yep, I also like my Jeeps, I have a Cherokee 4.0 2 WD Pickup with a 5 speed, and a Cherokee Sport for my daily driver, so was able to just step out to the driveway and do some quick measuring. The 4.0 measures in at about 34" long from rear of cyl.head to front of the fan. My M-5 has an engine space of about 27" in length when measured from the radiator to the back of the stock firewall recess. (The Champ 6 is approximately 26" long)
Allowing around 2" for fan clearance, the 4.0 will require around 36" of engine compartment length, thus the M-5 fire-wall would need its recess deepened by around another 9"-10" to accommodate the 4.0, this would move the center portion of the firewall almost back to the stock dashboard location. This would very much intrude upon the M-5s already limited interior space, and create tight foot-wells similar to a Mini-van. You might be able to "fudge" a couple of inches by moving the radiator ahead, but there is very little room to play with under an M-5s pointy hood.
So this would not really be a very practical swap for the little M-5, most other modern 6 cyls. that likewise employ 7 main bearing designs, are of a similar length. This leaves the most practical and easiest swaps being the latter Stude OHV-6, various 4 bangers, V-6s, and the small V-8s, and even a large American V-8 while it might require moving the firewall back by 2"-4", would still likely be an easier and more satisfactory swap than what would be provided by any modern large displacement "straight" 6.
Some foreign produced straight 6s might be an exception, but in my case at least, I'd rather burn the thing to the ground, than even consider doing such a thing to a Studebaker.

garyash
03-01-2008, 10:02 PM
I kept the stock Champ 6 in my M5, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to. I'm in favor of any project that actually gets finished, as opposed to impossible dreams that destroy decent cars and never get done.

Now, if you want to start with a Champ 6 block, add some goodies and a T5 transmission, I've never seen anything that approached a car being built by Dave Strand (whom I've never met). I did grab a photo of his car from a previous post and was very impressed. Anyone have info on the finished car and the results?

Here's the engine and chassis. No drooling! This, I like.
http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/champ6_dave_strand_t5dual.jpg

[img=left]http://www.studegarage.com/images/gary_ash_m5_sm.jpg[/img=left] Gary Ash
Dartmouth, Mass.
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
web site at http://www.studegarage.com

garyash
03-01-2008, 10:02 PM
I kept the stock Champ 6 in my M5, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to. I'm in favor of any project that actually gets finished, as opposed to impossible dreams that destroy decent cars and never get done.

Now, if you want to start with a Champ 6 block, add some goodies and a T5 transmission, I've never seen anything that approached a car being built by Dave Strand (whom I've never met). I did grab a photo of his car from a previous post and was very impressed. Anyone have info on the finished car and the results?

Here's the engine and chassis. No drooling! This, I like.
http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/champ6_dave_strand_t5dual.jpg

[img=left]http://www.studegarage.com/images/gary_ash_m5_sm.jpg[/img=left] Gary Ash
Dartmouth, Mass.
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
web site at http://www.studegarage.com

Doug M
03-01-2008, 10:12 PM
I have a 46 M5 I am installing on 87 dodge dakota running gear 3.8 V6 A/T seams to fit nicely. Doug M

Doug M
03-01-2008, 10:12 PM
I have a 46 M5 I am installing on 87 dodge dakota running gear 3.8 V6 A/T seams to fit nicely. Doug M

52-fan
03-02-2008, 08:08 AM
Gary, I was hoping you would join this discussion. I have seen the build photos on your truck and it's impressive. Any experience to share about driving a truck like yours on the highway?
BTW I have drooled over that yellow Champion engine myself.[:p] I had the picture as my wallpaper on my computer at work for a while.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
03-02-2008, 08:08 AM
Gary, I was hoping you would join this discussion. I have seen the build photos on your truck and it's impressive. Any experience to share about driving a truck like yours on the highway?
BTW I have drooled over that yellow Champion engine myself.[:p] I had the picture as my wallpaper on my computer at work for a while.

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

garyash
03-02-2008, 05:53 PM
Driving an M5 - I'm not sure how representative my truck is of the fleet, but here are some key points:
*New springs all around with heavy duty rears (I should have used std. rate springs)
*6.50-16 8-ply rated bias-ply tires. I went for big diameter, but boy are they stiff.
*stock rear with 4.82 ratio
*Overdrive - absolutely needed for highway use, gives net 3.37 ratio.
*Stock Champ 6 (except for the '60 Lark head with 8:1 compression)
*'63 truck brakes for stopping - they work well.

It rides like a truck - duh! I'm glad I put in seat belts or we'd hit the roof on every tar strip and pot hole. It would be a smooth ride with 500 lbs in the bed, but that's not going to happen. Actually, I like that it sits very high. Softer springs and radial car tires might be a huge difference for comfort, though. With the overdrive, it cruises at 60-65 on the highway (level and down hill, maybe 55 up hill). With overdrive (0.7 ratio) and 31" tires, it works out to 2200 rpm at 60 mph. I've had it over 70 but it's very busy and I'm not comfortable fighting it at that speed. However, we have driven 100-150 miles to meets with no problem.

Adding a lot of power wouldn't change the ride, so if you go the V8 route, then add modern shocks and use radial tires on 15" wheels. The rpms will go up a little with smaller diameter tires. One day, I had my wife turn the steering wheel while I was under the truck [no, it wasn't moving!] and I could see the frame flex by the steering box. That tells me that the frame should be stiffened if you go to fancy tires and wide wheels. I see why people swap in other front suspensions in street rods.

With old trucks, you have to set reasonable expectations. Stay near stock and cruise around town and short trips with ease. If you want a long-distance, comfortable cruiser, big changes are needed. It's all a trade-off of how many years of your life you want to spend building something and how much money you want to spend.

garyash
03-02-2008, 05:53 PM
Driving an M5 - I'm not sure how representative my truck is of the fleet, but here are some key points:
*New springs all around with heavy duty rears (I should have used std. rate springs)
*6.50-16 8-ply rated bias-ply tires. I went for big diameter, but boy are they stiff.
*stock rear with 4.82 ratio
*Overdrive - absolutely needed for highway use, gives net 3.37 ratio.
*Stock Champ 6 (except for the '60 Lark head with 8:1 compression)
*'63 truck brakes for stopping - they work well.

It rides like a truck - duh! I'm glad I put in seat belts or we'd hit the roof on every tar strip and pot hole. It would be a smooth ride with 500 lbs in the bed, but that's not going to happen. Actually, I like that it sits very high. Softer springs and radial car tires might be a huge difference for comfort, though. With the overdrive, it cruises at 60-65 on the highway (level and down hill, maybe 55 up hill). With overdrive (0.7 ratio) and 31" tires, it works out to 2200 rpm at 60 mph. I've had it over 70 but it's very busy and I'm not comfortable fighting it at that speed. However, we have driven 100-150 miles to meets with no problem.

Adding a lot of power wouldn't change the ride, so if you go the V8 route, then add modern shocks and use radial tires on 15" wheels. The rpms will go up a little with smaller diameter tires. One day, I had my wife turn the steering wheel while I was under the truck [no, it wasn't moving!] and I could see the frame flex by the steering box. That tells me that the frame should be stiffened if you go to fancy tires and wide wheels. I see why people swap in other front suspensions in street rods.

With old trucks, you have to set reasonable expectations. Stay near stock and cruise around town and short trips with ease. If you want a long-distance, comfortable cruiser, big changes are needed. It's all a trade-off of how many years of your life you want to spend building something and how much money you want to spend.

52-fan
03-02-2008, 08:07 PM
Thanks, that's some of the best real world info I've seen. Personally, I don't mind if a truck rides "like a truck". I probably would drive a car on any trip over a couple hundred miles anyway.:)

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
03-02-2008, 08:07 PM
Thanks, that's some of the best real world info I've seen. Personally, I don't mind if a truck rides "like a truck". I probably would drive a car on any trip over a couple hundred miles anyway.:)

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

phipfox
03-02-2008, 11:08 PM
lots of nice ideas here. two ford possibilities a 3.8 (232) might fit in that tight spot and nearly bullet proof. Mine went 320k just reg maint and minor repair then two more owners afterwards. Less plentiful would be the ford turbo 4... zoom zoom.

phipfox
03-02-2008, 11:08 PM
lots of nice ideas here. two ford possibilities a 3.8 (232) might fit in that tight spot and nearly bullet proof. Mine went 320k just reg maint and minor repair then two more owners afterwards. Less plentiful would be the ford turbo 4... zoom zoom.

m5pickup
03-04-2008, 03:10 PM
52-fan:
I have an M5 with a Cathcart-built Champ Six with his "Stage 4" mods of ported and polished intake-exhaust ports, 1 1/2 inch oversized stainless steel intake valves, 3/4 race cam, Offy dual carb intake manifold, dual exhaust headers and a finned aluminum head. The tranny is stock overdrive converted to a floor shift; brakes are also stock as are the tires. I'm 6'0", 230 lbs, and feel reasonably comfortable in the stock interior with a lap belt.

I love driving the truck, and do so comfortably and regularly within the neighborhood and rural roads, but I wouldn't suggest an M5 with a 6-banger as a daily driver, at least not if your routine includes parkways or expressways. The M5 drives well up to about 65, but unless you are in the country, the surrounding drivers that weave, pass without leaving spaces between cars, exit three lanes across at the exit sign, etc, make it a death defying experience. The truck will go faster, but with the stock brakes and bia-ply tires I have no plans to push it past 65.

Were I to consider the M5 as a daily driver, I would add modern seats rather than the M5 bench, a shoulder belt in addition to a lap belt, radials, newer brakes and some frame braces. I really like M5 Guru Gary Ash's suggestion of a modern transmission too.

Attached are pics of the truck and the engine. Credit Bill Cathcart for fine job on Champ Six and Westmoreland Studebaker for the frame-off restoration (term used loosely as the truck isn't fully stock.)

Regards-
John Stine
'46 M5 Pickup
'63 Lark Sedan

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p138/johncstine/M5%20December%202007/M5atBlairsville.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p138/johncstine/M5%20Judged%20at%20South%20Bend/SouthBend-DayThree074.jpg

m5pickup
03-04-2008, 03:10 PM
52-fan:
I have an M5 with a Cathcart-built Champ Six with his "Stage 4" mods of ported and polished intake-exhaust ports, 1 1/2 inch oversized stainless steel intake valves, 3/4 race cam, Offy dual carb intake manifold, dual exhaust headers and a finned aluminum head. The tranny is stock overdrive converted to a floor shift; brakes are also stock as are the tires. I'm 6'0", 230 lbs, and feel reasonably comfortable in the stock interior with a lap belt.

I love driving the truck, and do so comfortably and regularly within the neighborhood and rural roads, but I wouldn't suggest an M5 with a 6-banger as a daily driver, at least not if your routine includes parkways or expressways. The M5 drives well up to about 65, but unless you are in the country, the surrounding drivers that weave, pass without leaving spaces between cars, exit three lanes across at the exit sign, etc, make it a death defying experience. The truck will go faster, but with the stock brakes and bia-ply tires I have no plans to push it past 65.

Were I to consider the M5 as a daily driver, I would add modern seats rather than the M5 bench, a shoulder belt in addition to a lap belt, radials, newer brakes and some frame braces. I really like M5 Guru Gary Ash's suggestion of a modern transmission too.

Attached are pics of the truck and the engine. Credit Bill Cathcart for fine job on Champ Six and Westmoreland Studebaker for the frame-off restoration (term used loosely as the truck isn't fully stock.)

Regards-
John Stine
'46 M5 Pickup
'63 Lark Sedan

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p138/johncstine/M5%20December%202007/M5atBlairsville.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p138/johncstine/M5%20Judged%20at%20South%20Bend/SouthBend-DayThree074.jpg

Jessie J.
03-04-2008, 03:41 PM
Nice Pick-'em-Up you got there John!
Has anyone here seen a M-5 fitted with a latter Stude OHV-6? I have been thinking about doing this swap for a long time, and already have a 'late OHV-6 engine and several trannies to work with, seems like this would have been so easy that there would have been a few done over the years.
My 6 is in my '62 Lark, and it really performs quite well, much stronger than the flathead in the M-5. (I have all the V-8 parts to also convert the Lark over) I also could put one of my 259s or 289 into the M, but it appears that the 6 would practically bolt right in.

Jessie J.
03-04-2008, 03:41 PM
Nice Pick-'em-Up you got there John!
Has anyone here seen a M-5 fitted with a latter Stude OHV-6? I have been thinking about doing this swap for a long time, and already have a 'late OHV-6 engine and several trannies to work with, seems like this would have been so easy that there would have been a few done over the years.
My 6 is in my '62 Lark, and it really performs quite well, much stronger than the flathead in the M-5. (I have all the V-8 parts to also convert the Lark over) I also could put one of my 259s or 289 into the M, but it appears that the 6 would practically bolt right in.

52-fan
03-04-2008, 06:23 PM
I totally agree,nice truck! I bet lots of people do double takes when they look under the hood.[:0]

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas

52-fan
03-04-2008, 06:23 PM
I totally agree,nice truck! I bet lots of people do double takes when they look under the hood.[:0]

1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, 1947 M5. Searcy,Arkansas