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345 DeSoto
12-05-2018, 12:37 PM
I'm looking for a used steel camshaft to fit a '56 289 engine. Lobe condition not important, but the rest of the shaft needs to be very serviceable.

PackardV8
12-05-2018, 12:52 PM
I'm looking for a used 289 camshaft to fit a '56 engine. Lobe condition not important, but the rest of the shaft needs to be very serviceable.

Is this for a project involving welding? If so, you might be interested to learn some early '51-52 cams were steel. They usually can be identified by the copper plating between the lobes.

All the later cams, '53-64 were cast iron and are similar. The very few R-series will have different casting numbers.

jack vines

345 DeSoto
12-05-2018, 12:59 PM
Thanks, Jack...going to do a Hydraulic Roller.

PackardV8
12-05-2018, 01:34 PM
Thanks, Jack...going to do a Hydraulic Roller.

Interesting project. Who have you found to do the welding and grinding? My local cam grinder won't do welding any longer and Iskenderian stopped doing welded cams at least fifteen years ago.

jack vines

Colgate Studebaker
12-05-2018, 08:44 PM
Tony, are you having a cam welded as Jack says or are you having one custom ground? There are a few others of us that would like to acquire a hydraulic roller for our projects, so if you have a grinder willing to make them, maybe some of us others would send him some business. Do you have any info that might assist us? Thanks, Bill.

RadioRoy
12-05-2018, 08:52 PM
The camshafts are the same from 289 to 259, not counting the later "super" engines.

PackardV8
12-05-2018, 11:45 PM
Tony, are you having a cam welded as Jack says or are you having one custom ground? There are a few others of us that would like to acquire a hydraulic roller for our projects, so if you have a grinder willing to make them, maybe some of us others would send him some business. Do you have any info that might assist us? Thanks, Bill.

While this is not an exact representation of the difference between a flat tappet and a roller lobe profile, it illustrates why it's not possible to grind a performance roller profile on a Studebaker flat tappet cam core; can't grind air.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Images/Tech/Cams/FlatVsRollerChart.gif

jack vines

doofus
12-06-2018, 06:48 AM
I have several core's but when selecting a core last year i found all 6 cams had .oo1 gone off journals. i quit miking them and just picked one at random. PM me andlets talk "Turkey". Luck Doofus

345 DeSoto
12-06-2018, 08:06 AM
JACK - Adding weld would add as many thousands to the lift on the lobes, as needed. Lobe lift would only be limited by the bearing diameter of the cam. A few thousands extra lift, and more beneficial duration would do wonders. Looking to add low end TQ, rather than high end HP.

PackardV8
12-06-2018, 10:15 AM
JACK - Adding weld would add as many thousands to the lift on the lobes, as needed. Lobe lift would only be limited by the bearing diameter of the cam. A few thousands extra lift, and more beneficial duration would do wonders. Looking to add low end TQ, rather than high end HP.

For true;, but share with us the cam grinder you have found who guarantees he can successfully build up that much weld on sixteen lobes, then straighten the resultant warpage and guarantee the weld won't begin to fatigue and flake off at the thin transition? My grinder won't do welds and Iskenderian quit doing their hardface overlay welded cams more than fifteen years ago.

jack vines

Colgate Studebaker
12-06-2018, 01:35 PM
Thanks for the graph Jack, I was inquiring if Tony in deed had a grinder that could weld up a flat tappet cam and regrind it as a roller. Secondly I was asking if he has a grinder that could grind rollers from solid material or some other manufacturers core. Sort of like Mike Van Veghten did a few years back. I sure wish there were more guys willing to cough up the cash to have Mike make another run. Bill

Alan
12-06-2018, 01:58 PM
If he is going to have it welded up for a hydraulic roller, he needs a 51-53 steel billet cam, not the later cast iron cam.

345 DeSoto
12-06-2018, 02:54 PM
"For true;, but share with us the cam grinder you have found who guarantees he can successfully build up that much weld on sixteen lobes, then straighten the resultant warpage and guarantee the weld won't begin to fatigue and flake off at the thin transition? My grinder won't do welds and Iskenderian quit doing their hardface overlay welded cams more than fifteen years ago."

Jack Vines - Donny Johansson is my go to Cam guy. Been on the phone with him for the last week now. Four ways to go...his billet Studebaker steel cam welded lobes, then reground. New billet 9310 steel, custom ground. Tool steel 6065 steel, custom ground. Minimum 10 cam order custom ground...

345 DeSoto
12-06-2018, 02:58 PM
If there WERE 10 people who would spring for a new Hydraulic Roller they'd be somewhat cheaper...but they wouldn't be $100 cams. Mine will be more or less the same Studebaker cam, but with more lift and duration, a bit more punch and much better low end TQ...still entirely streetable. Specs are still being worked on.

wittsend
12-06-2018, 04:42 PM
For years now Ford has used a modular cam. Basically the lobes slide on a common serrated shaft. After placement a ball is pulled through the center of the shaft locking the lobes. I'm wondering if cam manufactures consider this the future. A common shaft (of different lengths - as needed) could be used. The journals and lobes (distributor gear, if needed) can just be properly spaced and then "fixed." There probably isn't too much difference in base circles that a common lobe might work for a fair number of engines.

So, one shaft (cut to length as needed), lobes that fit a variety of engines and only the journals and spacing would be different. Reground or welded and reground cams might be a thing of the past. If Ford is doing this for production engines it should be cost effective. The question is, will the primarily elderly Studebaker crowd live to see the day???

Alan
12-06-2018, 04:56 PM
Who are you calling old. I am 75 years young and as the Old Lady says I refuse to grow up.

345 DeSoto
12-06-2018, 07:23 PM
ALAN - Welcome to the "75 Club"...

Mike Van Veghten
12-06-2018, 07:50 PM
Yes, Don Johansen (correct spelling) is the guy that ground the roller cams that I had made. Another guy did the billet machining, and would probably be the guy doing any other cams that Don may do.
He uses the original Howard Cams patterns and actually does the grinding on the old...Howard Cams machinery.
Any cams today would be of the same material that's used to build the Top Fuel Nitro cams, as the guy doing the initial machining has his machines set up for that and it's hard (and more money !) to changing his mind..! Although, there really is no need to, it's actually a better material than the original cams that I had made..!

Mike

Jerry Forrester
12-06-2018, 08:34 PM
ALAN - Welcome to the "75 Club"...
I'm a card carrying member. Guess next Feb. I'll have to join another club.

PackardV8
12-06-2018, 09:12 PM
For years now Ford has used a modular cam. Basically the lobes slide on a common serrated shaft. After placement a ball is pulled through the center of the shaft locking the lobes. I'm wondering if cam manufactures consider this the future. A common shaft (of different lengths - as needed) could be used. The journals and lobes (distributor gear, if needed) can just be properly spaced and then "fixed." There probably isn't too much difference in base circles that a common lobe might work for a fair number of engines.

So, one shaft (cut to length as needed), lobes that fit a variety of engines and only the journals and spacing would be different. Reground or welded and reground cams might be a thing of the past. If Ford is doing this for production engines it should be cost effective. The question is, will the primarily elderly Studebaker crowd live to see the day???

Yes, mostly agree. After all the millions in tooling expenses are amortized, the next several hundred thousand cams are very inexpensive. The lobes and bearing journals are forged powdered metal, very close to the final shape desired. Powdered metal forging technology is not found in most small cam grinder shops. There are serrations on the inside bore of the camshaft lobes that will lock the lobes and bearing journals in place on the hollow tube that forms the shaft.

When all the lobes are placed on the tube shaft and held in alignment in a precision jig, a ball is drawn through the tube, which locks the lobes in place. At this point, the lobes receive grinding to finish the shape, the journals are ground and polished. The precision jig to hold the lobes in alignment is very expensive and can only be used for one cam grind and LCA. Finally, this method of camshaft production is patented and thus proprietary.


If there WERE 10 people who would spring for a new Hydraulic Roller they'd be somewhat cheaper...but they wouldn't be $100 cams. Mike will have to confirm his most recent quote for another production run, but IIRC, the cams were going to be $600 each plus providing the back end gear and bearing from a Stude cam core. Then, there are the necessary valve springs, R3 valves, the hydraulic rollers and the custom pushrods. Figure a minimum of $1500 to do it correctly.

FWIW, a cam isn't a magic wand. For it to produce more power, it requires a high rise intake manifold which doesn't fit under C/K/Avanti hoods and carburetor feeding custom ported heads. Unless one has spent the $2500 on heads and intake, the cam mostly just makes nicer noise.

jack vines

Mike Van Veghten
12-07-2018, 12:15 AM
Jack wrote -
FWIW, a cam isn't a magic wand. For it to produce more power, it requires a high rise intake manifold which doesn't fit under C/K/Avanti hoods and carburetor feeding custom ported heads. Unless one has spent the $2500 on heads and intake, the cam mostly just makes nicer noise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack speaks 100% the truth here.
Stock intake manifolds and a .600" lift cam is useless for making power. A stock manifold and heads (even mildly ported) and a .600" lift cam is useless for making power.
I've stated this before. A powerful engine is a...COMBINATION...of carefully thought out parts.

That is, an intake manifold, a set of (expensive) cylinder heads, a high performance/race camshaft, proper compression ratio for the cam, well designed headers, transmission gear ratios, and the rear axle gear ratio (that all go hand in hand with the weight and final use of the car)...NEEDS...to be well thought out...AS A WHOLE, not just a part or two.
Another thing that comes with high lift cams...is regular valve spring maintenance. More than you might like..!

As Jack says, your money, your cars, just think about the car as a whole. Not just a big cam, not just as a 2-1/2" exhaust system. Otherwise, you'll quickly grow to hate it, and return the cam to an OEM stock or R1 cam shaft.

In any case, I'm sure Don will be glad to help. Another "but" here, unless he's cut new patterns, I don't think he has any patterns for a hydraulic lifter. A hydraulic lifter on a solid lobe profile, will tear up both the lifter and the cam in short order.

Another but...if you all go ahead with the cam builds, I may put money in for a baby cam for my street engine.

Mike

Colgate Studebaker
12-07-2018, 06:08 AM
So once again guys, how many of us are willing to step up and have Mike put together another run of "special" hydraulic roller cams? I'll take 2, Tony would add another, Mike himself would add another also. Are there 6 more out there that want a roller cam? Bill

345 DeSoto
12-07-2018, 08:08 AM
Maybe we SHOULD start getting a List together here...4 of us so far...

PackardV8
12-07-2018, 10:37 AM
Over on the "Roller Rocker" thread, which for some reason is still on the General page, Jeff Rice says,


Roller cams are available now. All new. All one piece. Not welded.

I've been meaning to ask him, "Who, what, when, where, how much?"

jack vines

Mike Van Veghten
12-07-2018, 10:52 AM
Hey Jack -

Which roller rocker thread. Just looked, didn't see his comment.

Again, all new cams from Don will be one piece.
If I end up helping on any new cams, I'll help with the lobe "offset" too..!

Mike