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Cowtown Commander
11-26-2018, 05:31 PM
sad news from Detroit with GM announcing plant closings and personnel layoffs. I hate to see our North American industrial base disappear and the hardships for the workers. Who would have thought when Studebaker announced the closure of the South Bend plant that I would see similar actions at GM 55 years later.

BobPalma
11-26-2018, 05:49 PM
;) Many parallels with Studebaker's December 1963 South Bend plant closing, not the least of which is the stock price going UP :woot: when the announcement was made:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/personal-finance/susan-tompor/2018/11/26/gm-stock-price-layoffs/2114600002/

As the owner of a current-model Ford Escape, I can understand the move away from conventional passenger cars, but our Escape gets a consistent 30 MPG+ under all conditions. Abandoning passenger car production because consumers are buying barely 20 MPG big SUVs and trucks seems like a fool's mission; I mean, sooner or later, gas prices are going to go back up. :eek: :cool: BP

BobPalma
11-26-2018, 05:55 PM
;) The more things change, the more they stay the same.

William Faulkner was right:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2018/11/26/gm-detroit-hamtramck-plant-closing/2114067002/

(Human beings have the uncanny ability to consistently do two things at once: Be short-sighted and refuse to learn from history. :mad:) Such a talent! :cool: BP

BobPalma
11-26-2018, 05:59 PM
sad news from Detroit with GM announcing plant closings and personnel layoffs. I hate to see our North American industrial base disappear and the hardships for the workers. Who would have thought when Studebaker announced the closure of the South Bend plant that I would see similar actions at GM 55 years later.

;) No sweat, George; GM President Mary Barra was paid $22,500,000 last year. Surely she'll be able to figure this out. :D BP

Cowtown Commander
11-26-2018, 06:08 PM
One of the things that has changed is the amount of automation and robots used to make todays autos. This greatly reduces manual labor but makes it very difficult to make changes or alter production. When all only one vehicle type is made at a plant and that type isn't selling then the whole plant is obsolete.

8E45E
11-26-2018, 06:11 PM
;) No sweat, George; GM President Mary Barra was paid $22,500,000 last year. Surely she'll be able to figure this out. :D BP

By closing down the Oshawa plant.

Craig

R_David
11-26-2018, 06:22 PM
I think this is just a blip, the real bad layoffs for GM happened in 2009 when they laid off 47,000 employees. :eek:

BobPalma
11-26-2018, 06:25 PM
One of the things that has changed is the amount of automation and robots used to make todays autos. This greatly reduces manual labor but makes it very difficult to make changes or alter production. When all only one vehicle type is made at a plant and that type isn't selling then the whole plant is obsolete.

:) Your Arlington TX GM assembly plant survived the cuts, George, didn't it? Don't they just build SUVs? :cool: BP

8E45E
11-26-2018, 06:28 PM
I think this is just a blip, the real bad layoffs for GM happened in 2009 when they laid off 47,000 employees. :eek:

GM Unplugged: http://www.autonews.com/article/20181126/OEM01/181129783/gm-detroit-plant-closing

(I won't say the V-word here as mere mention of it automatically locks the thread on this Forum!!)

Craig

jclary
11-26-2018, 06:56 PM
No surprise to me...but collective bargaining between arrogant management and a group of slackard entitlement preaching thugs proves that flashy promotions, mediocre products, and poor service is never as profitable as a good product at a fair price. I purchased two brand new GM vehicles in 1983 and once I finally unloaded those pieces of crap...I never returned. Oddly enough...when it came to vehicles...I found new roads!

What I really feel bad about is the assembly line workers, the nearby restaurants, shops and community businesses that will also be affected. Such events go much deeper than the initial numbers announced. These shutdowns reverberate way beyond the walls of any manufacturing facility. Suppliers, truck drivers, grocery stores, schools, family medical practices, churches, and charities will have to scramble to deal with the economic impact.

The announcement includes the statement "GM is preparing for the industry’s ultimate shift toward ride sharing,":rolleyes: but from my observation, there's been tons of GM stuff sharing rides on tow trucks for years!:oops:

Hmnn...I wonder if there's a copyright on the word Avanti??? I wonder if there'll be a newly restructured GM facility headquartered in Hamilton?:confused:;)

mike cenit
11-26-2018, 07:02 PM
Clearly the market has moved away from light 4 door sedans, actually I'm not sure it ever was a true market, but a market forced on Americans by the 70's gas lines.
The big SUV and Pick Up customer is really the old big Roadmaster, and New Yorker customer of today. I think the American customer prefers heavier machines. GM, Ford
and Chrysler are kind of lucky that the Asians went after the light 4 door market and haven't figured out the full side pick up market yet to make a difference.
If the Big 3 are looking for a product to fill those light sedan production lines I'd look to fairly prices small pick ups. Also just look at what Jeep is doing with their Wrangler, it truly has become a "classless" car, you can
go anywhere in it, the Mall, the Country Club, any class, rich, middle class, off the roader, student can drive it any were and be "accepted" it's the Beetle of our time.
If Studebaker was here today I believe they'd be heavy into the "Transtar" business, and speciality car (Hawk/Avanti) business, like Ford is heading.

StudeRich
11-26-2018, 07:11 PM
Apparently the Pricey "Muscle Cars": Mustang, Challenger and Camaro are still surviving, along with the Pickups and SUV's. :ohmy:

It won't be long before ALL of them will be traded in on Used Hyundai Sedan's and New Electrics!

I will be driving my soon to be, PROPANE Studebaker and laughing all the way to the Bank! :lol:

sweetolbob
11-26-2018, 07:21 PM
My wife is most comfortable driving smaller cars. Her previous ride was a 2006 Prius.Last spring she wanted to look for a newer vehicle so we cruised all the usual suspects from big three to Japanese to Korean to German. Her choice was a Toyota Corolla which she happily drives.

During the search, Ford had announced they were exiting the small car business. There was no doubt in my mind why they were doing it. The Toyota's, Honda's etc had many more features for a given price point compared to the big three offerings. At the time I mentioned I now understood why Ford left the business and said I thought GM and FCA would be following soon.

I don't know how many Corollas would need to be sold to make the same profit as one Silverado but I'll bet it's a fair number.

​Bob​

mike cenit
11-26-2018, 08:00 PM
Bob;

No doubt Toyota and Honda have really "nailed" it and are the value and target of the class, question is if the market will hold in that class. By the way, The company I'm with is
demolishing a former GM (Saginaw Gear) plant in Saginaw........got to tell ya in was pretty cold in Saginaw today, I'm sure Bay City was also. If we really knew the net on those Pick Up's
and SUV's we'd be amazed how and why these company's stayed in the small car business. I'm sure if it wasn't for the fuel averaging they wouldn't have.

8E45E
11-26-2018, 08:07 PM
What I really feel bad about is the assembly line workers, the nearby restaurants, shops and community businesses that will also be affected. Such events go much deeper than the initial numbers announced. These shutdowns reverberate way beyond the walls of any manufacturing facility. Suppliers, truck drivers, grocery stores, schools, family medical practices, churches, and charities will have to scramble to deal with the economic impact.

That is exactly why the governments in US and Canada bailed them out in 2009~because of the domino effect it would have had on the nation.

Craig

8E45E
11-26-2018, 08:13 PM
Clearly the market has moved away from light 4 door sedans, actually I'm not sure it ever was a true market, but a market forced on Americans by the 70's gas lines.

Oh absolutely it was. Four door sedans were THE bread-and-butter car for decades as company cars for salesmen, taxi drivers, rental cars, etc. In the 1960's, my dad almost always had a low trim level full size four door sedan for a company car.

Craig

Stude Shoo-wop!
11-26-2018, 08:18 PM
Apparently the Pricey "Muscle Cars": Mustang, Challenger and Camaro are still surviving, along with the Pickups and SUV's. :ohmy:

It won't be long before ALL of them will be traded in on Used Hyundai Sedan's and New Electrics!

I will be driving my soon to be, PROPANE Studebaker and laughing all the way to the Bank! :lol:

I agree that what is happening concerning the weathered industrial giant that we all know as GM is to be expected and probably necessary in the long run. However, the phrase PROPANE STUDEBAKER caught my attention like a bee to a flower. Care to shed some light on that subject?

thunderations
11-26-2018, 08:26 PM
As I remember, the 2009 GM bailout never got totally repaid. The remaining billions were simply written off and the taxpayers got hoodwinked again. GM said it was hurting their image by being called "Government Motors Corporation" by the general public.
Now after 9 years to fix their problem with free money, they fail again. Money well spent, huh?

That is exactly why the governments in US and Canada bailed them out in 2009~because of the domino effect it would have had on the nation.

Craig

sweetolbob
11-26-2018, 08:27 PM
Mike

I assume the demolition must be in the complex at M-46 and I-75? I know a lot of folks that worked there at one time

As far a temps and snow, pretty close to where you are working. Warm here though,as I'm stuck in the house for another week or so. Your point about sustaining the market for small cars is appropriate.

Bob

8E45E
11-26-2018, 08:38 PM
As I remember, the 2009 GM bailout never got totally repaid. The remaining billions were simply written off and the taxpayers got hoodwinked again. GM said it was hurting their image by being called "Government Motors Corporation" by the general public.
Now after 9 years to fix their problem with free money, they fail again. Money well spent, huh?

The solution would have been a 10 billion dollar fine for faulty ignition switches.

Craig

mike cenit
11-26-2018, 09:02 PM
Bob

It's the plant on E Genesee and Cumberland, it may have been part of the old GM "Gun Plant" complex build in 1942, later Saginaw Gear, then Delphi and the past 10 years operated by TRW. I think the plant your talking about is the old Saginaw
Gear main plant, today that plant is Chinese operated and is called Nextgear, or something like that.

The plant were working on is about 1 M sf , a tough old bird, it's not real happy coming down, we had hoped to get it down before winter, but as they say, sometimes the plans didn't meet the schedule.

Stu Chapman
11-26-2018, 09:06 PM
As the last senior management survivor of the 1963-1966 era of Studebaker, I believe I can offer some really interesting comparisons between Studebaker of the 60s and GM of today.

First of all, Studebaker president Byers Burlingame picked December 9 to say Merry Christmas to thousands of employees. GM president Mary Bara must have turned back the clock and issued her Merry Christmas greeting to even more thousands of employees. How original!

In Canada, Ms Bara decided to close what GM recently claimed its Oshawa plant was its most profitable manufacturing and best quality facility.. Go figure. Of course we know that Byers Burlingame lied through his teeth when he said "we are going to Canada to live, not to die. Yeh, right. Seems to me the higher the level of nome these CEOS earn, the less their empathetic public relations ability declined.

Are you ready for this? GM in Canada stated today that the steel and aluminum tariffs recently imposed have created significantly further financial difficulties. Since I don't wish to breach SDC's no politics rule on Forum posts, I will not repeat what the perpetrator of this action said in response.

As you all know now, Studebaker's move to Canada was only an attempt to minimize conti successfully predictngent liabilities created by a very inept management team. Is I not possible that GM also employs similar people who cannot predict consumer preferences. Or just maybe the mighty dollar is more important in closing 5 North American plants while continuing manufacturing operations in a country known for paying employees at a fraction of pay to North American employees.

At least at Studebaker, in Canada we ceased operations in a season that didn't ruin Christmas, followed by ensuring that all employees found satisfactory employment elsewhere. Is it possible that GM might consider the same?

In conclusion what has happened today brings back untold memories of my years at Studebaker.

Stu Chapman

StudeRich
11-26-2018, 09:21 PM
/Cut/However, the phrase PROPANE STUDEBAKER caught my attention like a bee to a flower. Care to shed some light on that subject?

Ford actually built Ranger Pickups and Crown Vic's in the '80's with Factory straight Propane setups and they ran totally Clean inside AND in the Air.

These Conversions have been around since the late 1940's and 50's and probably earlier, Many Fleets of Trucks, Buses etc. owned by Corp's. and Municipalities run them and have their own Large Tanks and pumps at their Garages.

They adapt very well to High Compression as the Octane rating is Higher than Premium Auto. fuel closer to Race Gas and Aircraft Fuel.

No more worries about the Poor Performance Gasoline with Corn Oil eating the system, and also not harming the Carbon footprint. Oil changes are close to never needed, except maybe as some Detergents wear out in 2 or 3 Years.

Of course Propane fits better in a Truck due to the size and weight of heavier, larger Tanks, in Rural areas it is ideal because of more Fueling Stations also near RV Parks, RV Dealers etc.

But many Cars have the Tank over the rear Axle.

Dual Fuel switchable Kits are available, but straight Propane Injectors work the Best.

All indoor Commercial Vehicles run on Propane like small Trucks, Forklifts, Generators and other stationary Engines.
Propane has more BTU's than Natural Gas, so produces more Power and Fuel Mileage.

I drove a Maxie Van 1981 Ford E-350 Commuter Van for Northrop Corp. (Aircraft Div.) from Hawthorne Calif. to Palmdale and Lancaster, Calif. everyday for about a year and loved it.
It was one of a Fleet of about 12-14, 12 Passenger Commuter Van Conversions all the same, with 3 Rear mounted Tanks Manifolded together under the floor.

With only the 400 cid small block V8 engine before they went to the 460, it ran better than GREAT!

studegary
11-26-2018, 09:38 PM
I always thought that it was strange that a Chevy Volt is a hybrid and a Chevy Bolt is all electric.

Cowtown Commander
11-26-2018, 09:47 PM
The local news interviewed the union officers and they indicated that the Arlington TX plant would be unaffected with the exception that there maybe workers coming from closed plants to work here. Arlington opened in 1954 as an assembly plant and in the mid 90s was one of 3 plants producing Tahoe/Suburban (and the GMC, Cadillac variants). GM indicated that they were going to close 2 of the plants. Janesville and Willow Run were closed and Arlington has been going through expansions to meet the increased demand. With gas under $2 the demand for Arlington plant products is very strong but one wonders what will happen if the market shifts. If the gas price were to dramatically change GM and Ford may find that they don't have a product to offer and nowhere to produce it.

mike cenit
11-26-2018, 10:19 PM
Stu;

Being in manufacturing most of my working years (not auto's) I can tell you there comes a time in most companies when management decides it would rather sell a product
than manufacture it. Example Buick would rather sell that little crossover they buy from the Chinese and sell, then make it. Somebody in post war years figured out companies may be
better off being a marketing company than a manufacturing company.

Studebaker is a prime example, they may have made money with the move to Canada, but it
would never be enough, there were years where the money they would have to invest in Hamilton just to keep the doors open in their minds would
be better returned by buying Federal Reserve Notes. Even 55 years ago they talked to VW and/or Toyota about a off shore line of cars.

It's usually the management that's not true to the founders and management that made a company a success and cause the downfall. A good example, Stu is when you were with Studebaker all these car companies had
"sales bank"s, these were cars built for inventory and usually stored all over Detroit, sometimes for months and never sold until they were deeply discounted. Car companies liked to tell
Wall Street these were a ready stock of cars to help dealers sell more, in truth these cars were built for the benefit of management. For years management at these auto companies were paid
on production, bonuses weren't paid on sales but production, so they would keep making cars and store them is the 'sales bank" and bonus money was paid. It was typical of auto company management "kick
it down the road", and let the "next guy worry", "I got mine".

In the end everything has a life even companies, go back to the top 500 companies in 1930 and there is likely not 10 percent still in business, no RCA, no Railway Express, no NY Central, no TWA, no Woolworth, no Packard, and yes no Studebaker.
We're living through the undoing of General Motors, truth is their so big it may take them 50 years to close their doors, but close the doors they will.

ddub
11-26-2018, 10:47 PM
And isn't GM about the age Studebaker was when it left the auto market?

wittsend
11-27-2018, 12:06 AM
Are they abandoning MANUFACTURING in the USA of these "Sedans" but most likely importing from associated companies in Europe and Asia? It seems odd they would completely abandon this segment of the market.

57pack
11-27-2018, 06:44 AM
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about the parallels of Studebaker 1963 and GM 2018.
I remember sitting in front of our old Zenith television that evening watching the news. 55 years later, sitting in front of our newer Samsung, watching GM begin to circle the drain.

mike cenit
11-27-2018, 07:45 AM
I'm sure it is political or partly political, every thing these days seem political from Peanuts cartoons to the NFL. The Christmas season announcements seem to be more common than not, this GM
announcement seems to be their usual pre contract ploy. They'll pull back, maybe 1 or 2 plants, the Canadian Oshawa plant seems in real danger. The one in Detroit is too new, too good and too political,
Lordstown in Ohio got a bad start right from the begining, it was built for the Vega, enough said.

BobPalma
11-27-2018, 08:15 AM
As the last senior management survivor of the 1963-1966 era of Studebaker, I believe I can offer some really interesting comparisons between Studebaker of the 60s and GM of today.

First of all, Studebaker president Byers Burlingame picked December 9 to say Merry Christmas to thousands of employees. GM president Mary Bara must have turned back the clock and issued her Merry Christmas greeting to even more thousands of employees. How original!

In Canada, Ms Bara decided to close what GM recently claimed its Oshawa plant was its most profitable manufacturing and best quality facility.. Go figure. Of course we know that Byers Burlingame lied through his teeth when he said "we are going to Canada to live, not to die. Yeah, right. Seems to me the higher the level of nome these CEOS earn, the less their empathetic public relations ability declined.

Are you ready for this? GM in Canada stated today that the steel and aluminum tariffs recently imposed have created significantly further financial difficulties. Since I don't wish to breach SDC's no politics rule on Forum posts, I will not repeat what the perpetrator of this action said in response.

As you all know now, Studebaker's move to Canada was only an attempt to minimize conti successfully predictngent liabilities created by a very inept management team. Is I not possible that GM also employs similar people who cannot predict consumer preferences. Or just maybe the mighty dollar is more important in closing 5 North American plants while continuing manufacturing operations in a country known for paying employees at a fraction of pay to North American employees.

At least at Studebaker, in Canada we ceased operations in a season that didn't ruin Christmas, followed by ensuring that all employees found satisfactory employment elsewhere. Is it possible that GM might consider the same?

In conclusion what has happened today brings back untold memories of my years at Studebaker.

Stu Chapman

:!: Your remarks and observations are greatly appreciated, Stu; thanks for tendering them. There is no substitute for having been there; we are fortunate to have your continued input and sharp memory.

An observation and question: Do you have any idea about how much Byers Burlingame was paid in calendar year 1963? I'd like to run it through an inflation calculator and see how it compares with the obscene $22,500,000 Mary Barra was paid last year.

(I also appreciate your Post #18, Thunderations; spot-on....in my never so humble opinion, of course.;))

Meanwhile, the sedan market isn't going away. It will simply be served by Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. After all,. how many gazillion Toyota Camrys has the public bought in the last 25 years...and continues buying today? :cool:BP

8E45E
11-27-2018, 08:20 AM
Meanwhile, the sedan market isn't going away. It will simply be served by Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. After all,. how many gazillion Toyota Camrys has the public bought in the last 25 years...and continues buying today?

I don't know about your area, but there are sure a LOT of Mercedes Benz C-class sedans running around here. And BMW 3-series sedans as well.

Craig

BobPalma
11-27-2018, 08:30 AM
I don't know about your area, but there are sure a LOT of Mercedes Benz C-class sedans running around here. And BMW 3-series sedans as well. Craig

:) True, Craig. There simply aren't as many BMW and M-B dealerships in central Indiana, so their market penetration here isn't what it might be in your market. :cool: BP

BobPalma
11-27-2018, 08:31 AM
;) 'Gotta love Quartz' "translation" of the GM announcement:

https://qz.com/work/1475097/gm-layoffs-general-motors-press-release-translated/

'Love it! :lol: :cool: BP

Greenstude
11-27-2018, 09:21 AM
Lounsbury's, the Chevrolet- (formerly) Oldsmobile dealer in our city is a large, successful business, and one of the oldest GM dealers in Canada. Very soon after GM discontinued Oldsmobile, Lounsbury's formed a subsidiary company to start a successful BMW and Mini franchise. More recently, Lounsbury's bought and greatly expanded the Volkswagen and Audi dealerships, again with good results. Is it a message when even dealers aren't brand loyal?

WinM1895
11-27-2018, 09:39 AM
Ford actually built Ranger Pickups and Crown Vic's in the '80's with Factory straight Propane setups and they ran totally Clean inside AND in the Air.

With only the 400 cid small block V8 engine before they went to the 460, :confused: it ran better than GREAT!
In the mid 1980's, Ford offered two different diesels in Rangers, neither sold worth a hoot.

There's no parts catalog reference for any 1980's/90's FoMoCo vehicle with propane. These would have been aftermarket conversions.

When the completely new body on frame construction Econoline was introduced in 1975, three engines were available: 300 I-6, 351W, 460 (E250/350 only). 302 reintroduced in 1979 in E100/250.

1980/82 Econolines were available with the 351M/400, but both were cancelled at the end of the 1982 model run.

Good riddance, both these engines were turds, the heads were very prone to cracking.

Ford is exiting the small car market.
Ford is almost exiting the passenger car market, cancelling the Fiesta, Fusion and Taurus. I wouldn't call the Taurus a small car.

Ford is retaining the Focus, why I don't know, the Fusion has outsold it since 2006.

ddub: GM founded in 1908 by William C. 'Billy' Durant.

BobPalma
11-27-2018, 09:45 AM
;) Well, you learn something new every day. According to GM's verbose official BS in this dispatch, Studebaker didn't close South Bend Assembly in December 1963, they simply "didn't allocate any production to it" in 1964! :lol:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181126/VIDEO/311269992/autonews-now-gm-to-shutter-plants-kill-cars-cut-employees?cciid=email-autonews-annow

Ah, the great Mother Tongue! :cool: BP

studegary
11-27-2018, 10:22 AM
:) True, Craig. There simply aren't as many BMW and M-B dealerships in central Indiana, so their market penetration here isn't what it might be in your market. :cool: BP

Within three miles of our home there are Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz and Acura dealerships. From three to ten miles there are Mazda, BMW, Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler, Ram, Kia, Hyundai, Genesis, Ford, Chevrolet, Honda, Volvo, Mini, Buick, Cadillac, GMC and perhaps something that did not come to mind now. With that big assortment, I tend to mostly see Honda, M-B, Acura (in that order) followed by Toyota and Hyundai. The only Chevrolet in this neighborhood/area is a Corvette a couple of blocks away

EDIT: I forgot VW and Subaru.

studegary
11-27-2018, 10:37 AM
Lounsbury's, the Chevrolet- (formerly) Oldsmobile dealer in our city is a large, successful business, and one of the oldest GM dealers in Canada. Very soon after GM discontinued Oldsmobile, Lounsbury's formed a subsidiary company to start a successful BMW and Mini franchise. More recently, Lounsbury's bought and greatly expanded the Volkswagen and Audi dealerships, again with good results. Is it a message when even dealers aren't brand loyal?

Most of the large dealership organizations own three to 12 brands.

T.J. lavallee
11-27-2018, 10:40 AM
Hasn't automobile design always tried to follow the fashion of the times? The Roaring Twenties, Deco Art, the Space Age and now the Identity and Technology Age? Folks have always been driven to be seen in the latest new products and that most certainly includes the automobile. Bigger is better was the American motto and our vehicles identified us as uniquely American. We can't buy a traditional American family "boat" anymore due to downsizing so the next "big" thing is the SUV. That's what separates us from other society's. We're affluent enough to afford them. Take that the rest of the world!

thunderations
11-27-2018, 10:42 AM
I may be barking up a wrong tree, but I see what I see.
We travel in the summer in a diesel pusher motorhome and stay at many different RV parks. I always marvel at the towed vehicles, (towds) behind the many motorhomes. Almost all are either 4 Wheel drive with transfer cases that can be shifted into neutral or manufacturers from foreign lands that have built vehicles that will tolerate "4 down towable" conditions. Many of these need special attention and procedures to allow towing. Often it's below 65 MPH, (check the speed limits on Interstates), no more then a few hours without stopping and starting the vehicle for 10 or 15 minutes and shifting it through the gears before proceeding.
The US and Canada probably has the highest percentage of Motorhomes in the world, yet none of the manufacturers build a simple 2 wheel drive vehicle with automatic transmission that can be easily towed with all 4 wheels on the ground.
The only 2 wheel drive, automatic GM product that can be towed is the Equinox, built by Mitsubishi. The other often seen towd is the Honda CRV. Ford has had several automatic vehicles that could be towed 4 down in the past but have discontinued them and the only one left is the Fusion hybrid that is going to be discontinued.
If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle, there is a conversion to add a U-Joint disconnect that is in the 2 thousand to 3 thousand dollar range and probably voids any factory warranties.
I don't need a 40 to 50 thousand dollar, 6000 pound, 4 wheel drive SUV or Truck to tow behind my motorhome.
I think that there is a huge market for a lightweight, 4 door SUV or sedan/station wagon that fit the requirements of RV'ers.
Seems like the engineers can design mechanical things that can neartly drive themselves, back themselves into parking places, stop themselves and warn about lane changes, yet somehow can't make a transmission that can be put into neutral and towed.
Why can't a $22,500,000 employee somehow listen to the people that use vehicle instead of just doing the same thing year after year and expecting a different result?
OK, back to your regularly scheduled programing. This was just an observation based on actual happenings and conversations on the subject.

studegary
11-27-2018, 10:46 AM
;) Many parallels with Studebaker's December 1963 South Bend plant closing, not the least of which is the stock price going UP :woot: when the announcement was made:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/personal-finance/susan-tompor/2018/11/26/gm-stock-price-layoffs/2114600002/

As the owner of a current-model Ford Escape, I can understand the move away from conventional passenger cars, but our Escape gets a consistent 30 MPG+ under all conditions. Abandoning passenger car production because consumers are buying barely 20 MPG big SUVs and trucks seems like a fool's mission; I mean, sooner or later, gas prices are going to go back up. :eek: :cool: BP

Gasoline prices do have an effect on large SUVs and trucks. I do not believe that gas prices are what is driving the major increase in small SUVs and Crossovers. Many of these are sold to baby boomers and those older than them. They find them easier to see out of and particularly easier to get into and out of with the vehicle's higher roof and seat height.

For example, Cathy can not get out of our Acura coupe, but she can get out of our PT Cruiser, that is a similar configuration to a new small crossover. Also, I can get a standard size wheelchair into the hatch area of the PT Cruiser without even folding the rear seats. My only problem with that is that the wheelchair seems to be gaining weight as time goes on :).

Bo Markham
11-27-2018, 10:47 AM
GM... Good Riddance, RIP....... Now, back to Studebakers..........................

studegary
11-27-2018, 10:51 AM
I may be barking up a wrong tree, but I see what I see.
We travel in the summer in a diesel pusher motorhome and stay at many different RV parks. I always marvel at the towed vehicles, (towds) behind the many motorhomes. Almost all are either 4 Wheel drive with transfer cases that can be shifted into neutral or manufacturers from foreign lands that have built vehicles that will tolerate "4 down towable" conditions. Many of these need special attention and procedures to allow towing. Often it's below 65 MPH, (check the speed limits on Interstates), no more then a few hours without stopping and starting the vehicle for 10 or 15 minutes and shifting it through the gears before proceeding.
The US and Canada probably has the highest percentage of Motorhomes in the world, yet none of the manufacturers build a simple 2 wheel drive vehicle with automatic transmission that can be easily towed with all 4 wheels on the ground.
The only 2 wheel drive, automatic GM product that can be towed is the Equinox, built by Mitsubishi. The other often seen towd is the Honda CRV. Ford has had several automatic vehicles that could be towed 4 down in the past but have discontinued them and the only one left is the Fusion hybrid that is going to be discontinued.
If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle, there is a conversion to add a U-Joint disconnect that is in the 2 thousand to 3 thousand dollar range and probably voids any factory warranties.
I don't need a 40 to 50 thousand dollar, 6000 pound, 4 wheel drive SUV or Truck to tow behind my motorhome.
I think that there is a huge market for a lightweight, 4 door SUV or sedan/station wagon that fit the requirements of RV'ers.
Seems like the engineers can design mechanical things that can neartly drive themselves, back themselves into parking places, stop themselves and warn about lane changes, yet somehow can't make a transmission that can be put into neutral and towed.
Why can't a $22,500,000 employee somehow listen to the people that use vehicle instead of just doing the same thing year after year and expecting a different result?
OK, back to your regularly scheduled programing. This was just an observation based on actual happenings and conversations on the subject.

I agree with everything that you say. The "catch" is in profit/dollars. The market that you describe is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. It is just not worth pursuing.

8E45E
11-27-2018, 01:13 PM
There's no parts catalog reference for any 1980's/90's FoMoCo vehicle with propane. These would have been aftermarket conversions.

Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans. They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender.

Craig

BobPalma
11-27-2018, 01:20 PM
Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans. They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender. Craig

:confused: Canadian markets exclusively, Craig? 'Never heard of them in the 'States either...but "never say never," of course. ;) :cool: BP

8E45E
11-27-2018, 01:28 PM
:confused: Canadian markets exclusively, Craig? 'Never heard of them in the 'States either...but "never say never," of course. ;) :cool: BP

As far as I know, it was available in all states and provinces. Chrysler also offered a propane option on fleet Dodge Diplomats and trucks. Here is a link to a mention of the propane option in the 1983 LTD brochure: http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Ford/1983_Ford/1983_Ford_LTD_Brochure/1983%20Ford%20LTD-10-11.html

Craig

thunderations
11-27-2018, 01:43 PM
They have been building the cars for decades and plan to build small SUV's in the future, just need a transmission designed to work with the situation. This is not rocket science, just a trans that would allow "free wheeling" when in neutral and still lubricate itself. I think the market is bigger then you think and others would buy the vehicle. Not all CRV's are towed, but those needing a vehicle to tow, flock to the Honda shop because it will.

I agree with everything that you say. The "catch" is in profit/dollars. The market that you describe is miniscule in the grand scheme of things. It is just not worth pursuing.

WinM1895
11-27-2018, 01:49 PM
Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans.

They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender.
E2DZ-16098-A :!!:

Craig
You're correct, I just looked in the 1980/89 Ford L/M Parts Catalog. 1982 Granada & 1983/84 LTD sedans (both Fox-bodied midsize) were available w/a 2.3L with LPG option.

They must have been very few and far between, because I never noticed or heard of one. I bought a new 1983 LTD Brougham with the 200 1V I-6. T'was the last year for this engine.

No one "in the know" would buy a 3.8L V6, one of the worst turds foisted on mankind by FoMoCo. Parts and service guys called it the "miracle" engine.

If the timing cover didn't rot out before 30,000 miles, if the head gaskets didn't blow before 40,000 miles, it was a miracle!

Bill Pressler
11-27-2018, 02:31 PM
Just for the record, Lordstown was not built for the Vega. It started producing full-size Chevrolets for the 1966 model year, built Camaros and Firebirds, all before the Vega, and also built full-size vans for many years.

We have a '15 Cruze and a '17 Cruze. The '17 is particularly a good vehicle IMHO. I couldn't see why any couple of two (like us) would need anything bigger. Very large back seat and large trunk space, beautifully trimmed interior IMHO, nice polished wheels in the LT (mid) trim level, was inexpensive to buy new, and built 35 miles down the road from me. It was a no-brainer. I would absolutely buy another--but not one built yesterday or later.

Consumer Reports, for what it's worth, has the current Cruze on their "Recommended" list. Last month they removed two Honda models and at least one Ford from their list due to reliability issues.

Just kidding mostly, but when we were young, if someone said they wouldn't consider a new LTD for '66 because they had a bad Model T, we'd say "What a crank!", LOL.

studeclunker
11-27-2018, 03:49 PM
;) 'Gotta love Quartz' "translation" of the GM announcement:

https://qz.com/work/1475097/gm-layoffs-general-motors-press-release-translated/

'Love it! :lol: :cool: BP

Actually, with the 'translation' it makes perfect sense. Also, the previous CEO of the company (you know, the one Obama fired) was recently quoted as saying all of the major manufacturers are expecting the private automobile to be basically illegal on the road in not too many years. Hence, the mention of Autonomous cars. This transition is expected to take place in about ten years. He said the only place one will be able to operate an automobile is on a closed track. Also, being that the previous administration was involved in the replacement of the previous CEO of GM, I'm not at all surprised at her connections and priorities. We shall see if she and her team can actually pull GM out of the toilet or just pull the handle.

And. Craig.. 'V' word???:confused: Since it's problematic, could you please PM me a translation? I would love to learn another dirty-word.:rolleyes::lol:

studeclunker
11-27-2018, 04:01 PM
Factory propane-powered Fords were sold from 1982-1984, mainly for fleet orders. The company I worked for had at least two of the mid-size 1984 LTD four door sedans. They had a chrome 'Propane Powered' emblem on the front fender.

Craig


:confused: Canadian markets exclusively, Craig? 'Never heard of them in the 'States either...but "never say never," of course. ;) :cool: BP

I have seen them here in pre-Soviet California. The propane thing was very popular here due to the environ-mental movement. The dual-fuel conversion was also popular, however was a dealer-installed option, not from the factory, to my knowledge (IIRC which I doubt).

8E45E
11-27-2018, 04:57 PM
And. Craig.. 'V' word??? Since it's problematic, could you please PM me a translation? I would love to learn another dirty-word.

Here's your only hint!-------------> http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?59951-Chevy-Volt-Opel-Ampera

Second thought, here's another! -------------> http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?55986-Volt-sales-for-Oct

You've hung around here long enough to know what that four-letter 'V' word is by now!!! :D

Craig

6hk71400
11-27-2018, 05:17 PM
We are growing a generation of buyers for import vehicles that are smaller. The secondary used car market for first time buyers/drivers will not be filled with buyers wanting an overprice beat to blazes SUV 4 wheel drive. I know that the last domestic(?) manufacturers/marketers have not even considered this. What the future holds no one knows, but my present includes a 1962 Lark and a recently acquired 52 Commander four door both with overdrive.

Bob Miles
Pacific Southwest Zone Coordinator

JRoberts
11-27-2018, 07:51 PM
I had a discussion today about U.S. manufacturers getting away from the four door sedans. I cannot understand getting away from those sedans. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, most foreign makes produce a lot of four door models. I have a Subaru Legacy that is nine years old with 182,000 miles. I love this car! Subaru produces only four door cars for the U.S. market . Even their performance model, the STI, is a four door car. Around my area these things seem to be everywhere. Other foreign manufacturers may produce a low end two door but most are four door. VW no longer produces a two door car, even their Golf models are available only in a four door model. I can see no logic for Ford and GM stepping away from the four door automobile.

studegary
11-27-2018, 08:18 PM
No one "in the know" would buy a 3.8L V6, one of the worst turds foisted on mankind by FoMoCo. Parts and service guys called it the "miracle" engine.

If the timing cover didn't rot out before 30,000 miles, if the head gaskets didn't blow before 40,000 miles, it was a miracle!

I guess that I know of many "miracles". Here are some examples that come to mind.
Not "in the know", my in-laws bought a new Ford with a 3.8 in 1984. They had no problem with it in the nine years that it was their only car.
More "in the know" than most, I bought a new 1989 Thunderbird with a 3.8 (they only came with 3.8 V6s then - no V8s). Many on this Forum probably remember the car. I drove it trouble free and many hard miles for 79K miles and then sold it to someone in the neighborhood. I saw it around for many years after that.
I was a chauffeur for a livery company for many years. I mostly drove stretch Cadillacs, but the regular livery cars were 1988 Taurus and 1989 Sable sedans with 3.8 V6s. The four of them were driven about 60K miles per year each and sold in three years with 180K miles on them. I never heard of an engine problem with any of them and I do not recall any of them being out of service for other than oil changes and brakes. When they were sold, most people thought that they had a quick 80K miles on them (the odometers did not have the extra digit then).

benaslopoke
11-27-2018, 08:41 PM
;) No sweat, George; GM President Mary Barra was paid $22,500,000 last year. Surely she'll be able to figure this out. :D BP

Take a look at Carlos Goshen, the soon to be canned CEO of Renault, Nissan, etc.. I betcha he didn't get near that much for saving Nissan from red ink.. Just go's to show the ethics of SE Asia and the USA.. NO??

55s
11-27-2018, 09:13 PM
I had an expensive late 90s "Luxury Touring" Astrovan.

It was parked within five years due to the fact the motor would shut off, sometimes when I was towing a stock car trailer. Very scary stuff. No power steering or brakes - no power anything. I changed the very cheap plastic bottomed distributor twice thinking it would solve the problem. Not the fix. In hindsight, it turned out to be a faulty ignition switch.

It didn't matter that much, because at 6 years old, with almost no further driving, it had rotten brake lines and gas lines.

When I took my 50 year old plus 1955 Speedster gas tank to Gas Tank Renu, there was a lineup of 5 year old GM gas tanks. The Gas Tank Renu owner told me that he was replacing all of the fuel tank pick-up tubes so that owners could attach a hose to it that would run up to the motor and bypass the failing gas lines. I WAS NOT ALONE!!.

In hindsight, I am grateful because, although my car investment went to almost nothing in 6 years, none of my family was killed in a possible deathtrap.

I have not bought a GM vehicle since...

Dick Steinkamp
11-27-2018, 09:19 PM
Mary isn't alone in with her obscene CEO compensation. Pretty much the norm (unfortunately)...

https://aflcio.org/paywatch/highest-paid-ceos

Stu Chapman
11-28-2018, 08:57 AM
:!: Your remarks and observations are greatly appreciated, Stu; thanks for tendering them. There is no substitute for having been there; we are fortunate to have your continued input and sharp memory.

An observation and question: Do you have any idea about how much Byers Burlingame was paid in calendar year 1963? I'd like to run it through an inflation calculator and see how it compares with the obscene $22,500,000 Mary Barra was paid last year.

(I also appreciate your Post #18, Thunderations; spot-on....in my never so humble opinion, of course.;))

Meanwhile, the sedan market isn't going away. It will simply be served by Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. After all,. how many gazillion Toyota Camrys has the public bought in the last 25 years...and continues buying today? :cool:BP

Thank you for your compliment Bob. It's always nice to feel needed.

Unfortunately I do not know what Byers Burlingame earned in 1966, however Sherwood Egbert earned $85,000 annually in 1964, plus stock options, residency at the Proving Grounds, two company cars and benefits.

In Canada, Gordon Grundy was paid $55,000 annually in 1966, plus a company car, a leased car and benefits. To explain, all senior management and field sales and service personnel received a company car and were also allowed to lease a car for their spouse. Middle management personnel could have a leased car, The cost of a leased car began at $18 monthly.

For comparison purposes, in 1966 as Director of Advertising and Public Relations, I received $10,500 annually plus a company car, a leased car and benefits. By the way, all vehicles supplied came with licence, insurance and service paid for by Studebaker.

Stu Chapman

Stu Chapman
11-28-2018, 09:20 AM
;) Well, you learn something new every day. According to GM's verbose official BS in this dispatch, Studebaker didn't close South Bend Assembly in December 1963, they simply "didn't allocate any production to it" in 1964! :lol:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181126/VIDEO/311269992/autonews-now-gm-to-shutter-plants-kill-cars-cut-employees?cciid=email-autonews-annow

Ah, the great Mother Tongue! :cool: BP

HOW TRUE! Back in the 60s, Canadian media was exceptionally supportive of Studebaker and allowed us considerable liberties, for example....

1 - "Studebaker will operate on one shift for the next two weeks instead of two in order to adjust inventory to sales". (Of course that's logical isn't it?}

2 - "Studebaker will sponsor a Lola Studebaker driven by David Hobbs in the 1965 Canadian Grand Prix" (Why not, both are powered by the same basic engines.)

Stu Chapman

stall
11-28-2018, 09:25 AM
My experience seems to run contra to you guys; the worst car I ever owned was a Toyota Camry; it was built very cheap and everything from the door handles to water pumps (yes plural) was replaced in the couple of years i owned it. I now own a 4-year old Equinox and a 2009 Malibu that are trouble free. My Grandson is making "need a car noises" and I'll give him the 2009 without worry.

The other side of the question baffles me; do you really advocate that GM keep plants open whether the cars made there sell or not. You can't get around the simple fact is that the current crop of sedans are not selling and have been on a downtrend for years. The reality is that as less models are needed it's more economical to consolidate production.

Perhaps we need a law forbidding management from making "business" decisions?

Dick Steinkamp
11-28-2018, 10:24 AM
I had an expensive late 90s "Luxury Touring" Astrovan.

It was parked within five years due to the fact the motor would shut off, sometimes when I was towing a stock car trailer. Very scary stuff. No power steering or brakes - no power anything. I changed the very cheap plastic bottomed distributor twice thinking it would solve the problem. Not the fix. In hindsight, it turned out to be a faulty ignition switch.

It didn't matter that much, because at 6 years old, with almost no further driving, it had rotten brake lines and gas lines.

When I took my 50 year old plus 1955 Speedster gas tank to Gas Tank Renu, there was a lineup of 5 year old GM gas tanks. The Gas Tank Renu owner told me that he was replacing all of the fuel tank pick-up tubes so that owners could attach a hose to it that would run up to the motor and bypass the failing gas lines. I WAS NOT ALONE!!.

In hindsight, I am grateful because, although my car investment went to almost nothing in 6 years, none of my family was killed in a possible deathtrap.

I have not bought a GM vehicle since...

Sorry about your experience. You may not believe this, but there are similar anecdotes about Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, BMWs, etc, etc. I wonder if there is anyone who has not had a bad experience with a car that has tainted their selection process? I heard one the other day about a guy that bought a 54 Ford and the motor went south after 35,000 miles. He has never bought another Ford. He will tell his '54 story to anyone who will listen (and hopefully do the same as he does with Fords, I guess).

I bought a new GMC Safari (Astrovan) in 1988. Drove it for 250,000 miles with only maintenance and few repairs. Gave it to my oldest daughter who drove it for many more years, then traded it in (still running and driving nicely) on a newer used car. I doubt if your story is typical of all Astrovans (I still see plenty on the road), just as my story isn't.

I bought a 1971 Datsun wagon new. It was pretty much a pile of crap. I managed to hang on to it for a full year before I got rid of it. It would be a big mistake on my part to put the build quality of a 2018 Nissan in the same category as my 71.

showbizkid
11-28-2018, 10:41 AM
Mary isn't alone in with her obscene CEO compensation. Pretty much the norm (unfortunately)...

IMO, CEO comp should always be tied to performance. You get paid well as long as things are growing and prospering. Things start going south, so does your pay. It's only fair, and a wise check for the Board to put in place. It works where it's done.

Dick Steinkamp
11-28-2018, 10:57 AM
IMO, CEO comp should always be tied to performance. You get paid well as long as things are growing and prospering. Things start going south, so does your pay. It's only fair, and a wise check for the Board to put in place. It works where it's done.

I agree....but it all depends on your definition of "paid well". IIRC, we thought CEOs were paid well in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s also....

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2017%2F07%2Fceo-compensation-ratio-2016.png&w=1100&q=85

Top CEOs Make More in Two Days Than An Average Employee Does in One Year (http://fortune.com/2017/07/20/ceo-pay-ratio-2016/)

Dick Steinkamp
11-28-2018, 11:12 AM
The other side of the question baffles me; do you really advocate that GM keep plants open whether the cars made there sell or not. You can't get around the simple fact is that the current crop of sedans are not selling and have been on a downtrend for years. The reality is that as less models are needed it's more economical to consolidate production.

Perhaps we need a law forbidding management from making "business" decisions?

X2...

Take a look at the chart in this story...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-dramatic-chart-behind-gms-job-slashing-2018-11-27?siteid=rss&rss=1

"For the industry, car sales now represent a third of total vehicle sales, as shoppers opt for pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles. As recently as five years ago, vehicle sales were split fifty-fifty."

If you were the CEO of GM, Ford or Chrysler you'd really do nothing about this trend?

8E45E
11-28-2018, 12:47 PM
X2...

Take a look at the chart in this story...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-dramatic-chart-behind-gms-job-slashing-2018-11-27?siteid=rss&rss=1

"For the industry, car sales now represent a third of total vehicle sales, as shoppers opt for pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles. As recently as five years ago, vehicle sales were split fifty-fifty."

If you were the CEO of GM, Ford or Chrysler you'd really do nothing about this trend?

As I mentioned here in Post #15, http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?107006-Shades-of-Sherwood-Egbert-(Sergio-Replaced-Passed)&highlight=dart the market is currently 63% SUV/trucks/vans vs. 37% passenger cars.

Craig

Champ51
11-28-2018, 04:49 PM
A reasonable CEO should not walk away from 37% of the market. Instead, they should be inspiring their product development employees to design automobiles which people will want in that segment. Clearly, these CEOs have forgotten how volatile the petroleum market has been during the last 45 years. When (not if) fuel prices rise, people will be clammoring for smaller and more efficient vehicles and the non-GM / Ford companies will gain even more market share.

8E45E
11-28-2018, 05:06 PM
Sorry about your experience.

I bought a new GMC Safari (Astrovan) in 1988. Drove it for 250,000 miles with only maintenance and few repairs. Gave it to my oldest daughter who drove it for many more years, then traded it in (still running and driving nicely) on a newer used car. I doubt if your story is typical of all Astrovans (I still see plenty on the road), just as my story isn't.

HUGE difference!

Where Paul lives is one of the most heavily salt infested roads for a good 6 months of the year in North America, versus Washington coast where salt usage is very minimal. In Ontario, the bodies and other exposed chassis components rust away far faster than the actual running gear.

Craig

Dick Steinkamp
11-28-2018, 06:22 PM
HUGE difference!

Where Paul lives is one of the most heavily salt infested roads for a good 6 months of the year in North America, versus Washington coast where salt usage is very minimal. In Ontario, the bodies and other exposed chassis components rust away far faster than the actual running gear.

Craig

Good point...plus, its time with me (10 years?) was all in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Dick Steinkamp
11-28-2018, 06:26 PM
A reasonable CEO should not walk away from 37% of the market. Instead, they should be inspiring their product development employees to design automobiles which people will want in that segment. Clearly, these CEOs have forgotten how volatile the petroleum market has been during the last 45 years. When (not if) fuel prices rise, people will be clammoring for smaller and more efficient vehicles and the non-GM / Ford companies will gain even more market share.

I believe all 3 are retaining the portions of their sedan line up that meet that market segment. Just not 50% of their production like it was 5 years ago.

When oil prices jump again, consumers will be clamoring for long range, fast charging electrics. GM says they will be ready by 2023. That may be too late.

55s
11-28-2018, 08:14 PM
Sorry about your experience. You may not believe this, but there are similar anecdotes about Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, BMWs, etc, etc. I wonder if there is anyone who has not had a bad experience with a car that has tainted their selection process? I heard one the other day about a guy that bought a 54 Ford and the motor went south after 35,000 miles. He has never bought another Ford. He will tell his '54 story to anyone who will listen (and hopefully do the same as he does with Fords, I guess).

I bought a new GMC Safari (Astrovan) in 1988. Drove it for 250,000 miles with only maintenance and few repairs. Gave it to my oldest daughter who drove it for many more years, then traded it in (still running and driving nicely) on a newer used car. I doubt if your story is typical of all Astrovans (I still see plenty on the road), just as my story isn't.

I bought a 1971 Datsun wagon new. It was pretty much a pile of crap. I managed to hang on to it for a full year before I got rid of it. It would be a big mistake on my part to put the build quality of a 2018 Nissan in the same category as my 71.

I bought the Astrovan based on its very good reputation and advice from my mechanic. However, they did cheapen it in the latter part of the 90s. My mechanic apologised more than once for the many changes GM made and the many issues it had. I was not alone....

8E45E
11-30-2018, 08:32 PM
I had an expensive late 90s "Luxury Touring" Astrovan.

It was parked within five years due to the fact the motor would shut off, sometimes when I was towing a stock car trailer. Very scary stuff. No power steering or brakes - no power anything. I changed the very cheap plastic bottomed distributor twice thinking it would solve the problem. Not the fix. In hindsight, it turned out to be a faulty ignition switch.

I guess the newest GM products still have that problem: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/autos/autostrucks/2019-chevrolet-silverado-breaks-down-in-the-middle-of-detroit-red-wings-marketing-stunt/ar-BBQjLQF?ocid=spartandhp

Craig

8E45E
02-04-2019, 06:50 AM
sad news from Detroit with GM announcing plant closings and personnel layoffs. I hate to see our North American industrial base disappear and the hardships for the workers. Who would have thought when Studebaker announced the closure of the South Bend plant that I would see similar actions at GM 55 years later.

The union fought back yesterday: https://globalnews.ca/news/4920702/gm-unifor-super-bowl-ad/

Craig

t walgamuth
02-04-2019, 07:01 AM
If I were full time living in a motor home I'd probably use a trailer for my smaller vehicle.

jclary
02-04-2019, 07:25 AM
Yeah...well...perhaps they should have spent more time satisfying their customers with decent products instead of bragging 'bout their good wrenches required for repairing all the crap they overcharged for having to patch up...or treating their customers with respect and appreciation instead of wandering around looking for new roads???:o

Let's hope they reinvent themselves successfully this time...perhaps their "new roads" will lead them to set up dealerships in abandoned Sears buildings:oops:

8E45E
02-04-2019, 07:30 AM
Yeah...well...perhaps they should have spent more time satisfying their customers with decent products instead of bragging 'bout their good wrenches required for repairing all the crap they overcharged for having to patch up...or treating their customers with respect and appreciation instead of wandering around looking for new roads???

Let's hope they reinvent themselves successfully this time...perhaps their "new roads" will lead them to set up dealerships in abandoned Sears buildings:oops:

Didn't they tell us all their 'new roads' are now headed to Mexico; hence the paid ad by Unifor? http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/gm-could-sue-unifor-over-super-bowl-2019-ad/ar-BBT9jxw?ocid=ientp

I have to agree about GM's quality control going steadily downhill from 1977, and continued to accelerate into the Roger Smith era.

Craig