Differences between valve bodies

[bams50]

I just bought a first gear start valve for "non-floor shift trans". I assume that means for a FOM, and not a Power Shift.

Someone asked a good question- what specifically is the difference in the two valve bodies? That got me to thinking: Maybe if I got a "regular" valve body, I could compare them side-by-side to find out the difference, and maybe find a fix for it.

Has anyone done this before, and I haven't heard? If no one has, I would like to get a regular one for comparison- maybe pick it up at York?

All part of my Stude learning process

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

[Roscomacaw]

Bob, looking in the parts book for the first year of the FOM in a Stude, you quickly realize that the difference is in one or two (I can't remember now) little springs that work against one of the valves. That's it! NOW - I can't say as far as later 1st gear start valve bodies - and there are more than one type out there.

Thing is, initially, the V8 cars in '56 had first gear start. After 24,000 units they went to 2nd gear start. The only difference in the parts makeup of the valve bodies of the two variants are the springs I mentioned. And, NO, SASCO doesn't have any "replacement" springs of the sort required.

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

[N8N]

I think there is a service letter (or one of the shop manual supplements?) detailing the mods made to the valve body to make it 2nd gear start. those should be reversible by working backwards

Unfortunately, this only works for a couple model years. the valve body was eventually redesigned so it can't be modded like this.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[buddymander]

Well, if that's the only difference, I'm sure I could locate springs from a later transmission that would be the same. There are a lot of simple ways to compare spring strength. I personally believe that there must be a simple reprogramming solution to this second gear start business. I've reprogrammed a lot of transmissions with shift kits, reprogramming kits and update kits and I can't believe you have to change the whole valve body and assorted other parts just to change the shift sequence.

[JDP]

As was mentioned the spring thing only works on the very early bodies. The casting and fluid routing was changed on the later bodies and to the best of my knowledge can't be modified for first gear start.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
57 wagon
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[bams50]

quote:Originally posted by JDP

The casting and fluid routing was changed on the later bodies

I wasguessing it was something like that- otherwise someone(s) probably would have made and sold a kit decades ago; and the first gear units wouldn't be as sought after as they are...

Still, I'll compare this one with a second gear one and see what's what. I talked to my buddy that runs an old-school trans. shop, and he says if I get a regular one we'll open the two up side by side and see what's what

If someone is coming to York and has one out- and can grab it easily- I'd still like to buy it.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"With your Lark you're on your own, free as a bird, alive as a Lark. You've suddenly discovered that parking is a pleasure, traffic is a breeze, turning's no trick at all, and happiness is a thing called Larking!"

[buddymander]

I've always had the idea that it was a little bit more complicated than just changing a few parts around within the valve body, but even if the fluid has to be rerouted, it isn't that big of a deal to drill a coupla holes and run a tube. A lot of the shift reprogramming kits are more complicated than that. Bam, how about posting pics as you accumulate parts?

[bams50]

Yeah, that's the plan; I haven't gotten the one I bought yet, and still have to scare up a second gear start body. Hopefully I can find one at York end of the month. If I get them side by side, I'll find out what the difference is and share it here.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"With your Lark you're on your own, free as a bird, alive as a Lark. You've suddenly discovered that parking is a pleasure, traffic is a breeze, turning's no trick at all, and happiness is a thing called Larking!"

[Roscomacaw]

Awhile back here - there was a thread about this subject and someone ventured that they could take a valve body out of a late cast iron FOM such as was used behind a 6 thru 1962. Then they'd simply switch it with the 2nd gear start valve body in a later cast iron FOM behind an 8. Well, I asked John Metzker (Turning Wheels Co-operator expert on FOM trannies) and he said that that won't work. And it wasn't simply a matter of some internal parts differences that might be modified to change things to where such a swap would work.

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

[wally]

I wonder then, IF there is such limited interchange between FOMs from one year to the next, then how is it that a generic "First Gear Start" Valve body has been marketed, previously? If that one will fit whatever year FOM you have, then why won't the others interchange? I am very curious as to the actual difference between the first-and second gear start assemblies. Hope Bams and his trans man clear up some of the controversy, much to our benefit.

"You Can't Have Everything--Where Would You Put It?" ---comedian Steven Wright

[Roscomacaw]

Maybe I'll give Metzker a call and ask him to clarify.

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

[buddymander]

By the simple fact that you can move the gearshift lever to accomplish a first gear start; that proves that the entire gear range is selectable thru the valve body. So: wherever the fluid is going when the lever is downshifted is where the fluid needs to go when it's in "D". I figure then it's the governor's job to up shift it, and if not, then we cross that bridge when we come to it.

[bams50]

That's my thought on it also, Buddymander. All three "gears" are in every tranny. In many ways the valve body is the "brains" of the trans. We already know that a given trans. can access that first gear with nothing more than the valve body change. So as I see it, for the purposes of this change, I don't have to think about any other part of the trans.

I believe once we get a first- and second-gear start valve body side by side, it will be very easy to determine the difference between the two. What remains to be seen is if the changes will be simple, complicated, or more trouble than it's worth. I suspect it won't be simple, or someone else would have done it by now

My goal is to figure out the modification, and share it with the Forum. If it involves machining or the like, I can do that. Probably could get pieces cast also if it comes to that.

I'm looking forward to getting into this! I'll be looking for that second-gear valve body at York, and I'll keep you all posted.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"With your Lark you're on your own, free as a bird, alive as a Lark. You've suddenly discovered that parking is a pleasure, traffic is a breeze, turning's no trick at all, and happiness is a thing called Larking!"

[Johnnywiffer]

I just bought one of those wonderful valve bodies from the same guy as yours, Bob, for the same price you mentioned in the other thread. (I think). I had previously gotten one from Bo for $350. When the other one gets here, will look at the outside and see if there are any obvious differences in the 2.

Bo told me I needed to "clean" the one I got from him. Whether that meant it was new and had stuff in it or used, dunno. But I'm assuming I'd probalby need to do the same with the new one I'm getting. When I put the new one in my Flight-O-Matic, I can see the outer differences then too.

By the way, one reason you can't use the FOM valve body is the quadrant difference. Stude PNDLR...FOM....PRNDL.

John

[buddymander]

Does anybody have one of those fluid diagrams that shows the path of the pressure while the trans is in different gears?