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VtMike
08-28-2018, 08:18 PM
Hi - new guy here . . .

I saw my 1st Avanti in 1963 at age 14, in Hagerstown, Md. at Fleigh (sp?)(pronounced "Flay") Motors, and I have been itching to own one since then. Now, 55 years later, I am thinking seriously about scratching that itch.

But first, a short story about my little Avanti search . . . Yesterday I wrote an email to Brad Bez to just see if he had or knew of one for sale. That was my 1st ever inquiry re: an Avanti.

Today, out of the blue, I got an email claiming there was a 1963 low mileage (33K) Avanti for sale. Quite the coincidence, eh? The email was purportedly from a Roger Cooper. His email indicated "classicspower77."

Does anybody know who Roger Cooper is? I Googled him and got nothing. Has anyone else heard from him about an Avanti for sale that sounds a little too good to be true?

If not, then it appears he is up to no good . . . so fair warning . . .

So, anyway, I am not looking for a work of art or necessarily a numbers matching car. Just a good driver that wouldn't break the bank (or, at least, no too badly). A 4 speed 63 or 64 would be great, but an early Avanti II would probably fit the bill, too.

I don't own a Studebaker, but my Dad had a string of them. I remember a mid-50s pickup truck, a 1958 Commander, and a 1960 Lark. And I think he had a sedan right after the War and before I was around.

Anyway, I have already enjoyed reading about Avanti and Studebakers on this site, and thought I would join in the fun.

Mike Seibert
Barre, Vermont

studegary
08-28-2018, 08:52 PM
Welcome to the SDC Forum! I suggest that you also try over on the AOAI Forum (Avanti). Good luck in your search. I have owned three new and used Avantis and worked on many more, but own none today (I am also looking, but not competition - I am looking for newer).

PackardV8
08-28-2018, 09:01 PM
Welcome and congratulations on your appreciation of great design. The Avanti is probably more bling for the buck than anything on the market today. Everyone who sees one recognizes it as unique. They love it or hate it, but can't ignore it.

jack vines

sweetolbob
08-28-2018, 09:27 PM
Welcome! I got the Avanti Jones when I saw one in the mid-60's. It took me until about 2005 to buy my first one, an 83. It was followed up by a 74 with 4-speed.

I can't judge your budget nor mechanical skills but I like to modify mine so I do all my own work and start out with lower priced SBC engined ones as that's my knowledge base.

If you want to start with a nice 63/64 4-speed in driveable/show condition you are in the $20-30k range. Probably a few grand less for a II in similar shape with a four speed. Be aware 74 was the last year for the II four speeds.

Here's the Ebay listing for Avanti's currently for sale. There is a nice 63 four speed for sale. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=avanti&_sacat=6001&_fosrp=1

Be sure you have someone familiar with Avanti's inspect the car as they have some weak spots.

Take a while, ask the questions you are currently and access your skills and budget against what you want to drive.

They are a lot of car for the money but be sure you get the right one for you.

Avanti, Bob

Peddler
08-29-2018, 06:09 PM
You should try to make contact with Dave Kinney, he is in Great Falls, VA and is a collector and flipper of Avanti's. If you Google him he will come up as an Appraiser specializing in diminished value I think. He is knowledgeable and I think decent guy who has given me some good advice over the last couple years. I am very high on Brad Bez he is extremely knowledgeable about the cars and runs a good operation. I think he is buried in restoration work and may be a little slow getting back to you. He has a couple of the AOAI guys that help him out in his shop and I am sure are wired to the market. Lastly look in both the Studebaker Drivers Club and AOAI magazines as there are always cars for sale there. If you don't know these cars well get someone to help you before you buy to make sure the car is solid, some repairs can be expensive.

VtMike
08-29-2018, 07:26 PM
OK - I got another email from my friend Roger Cooper who says he has a '63 Avanti for sale. I can't really understand the specifics of the arrangements he is describing, but it sounds mighty convoluted, and the warning bells and whistles are going off in my head. He sent pictures of a great looking R2 Avanti but I don't think this thing is real. Anybody got an opinion?

Here is the text of his email:

"I have attached a full set of pictures for you. Please check them. Due to the nature of my work, I am restricted to phone call as I am currently offshore. I can only communicate via email at the moment and I hope you understand. But I can give you the phone # for the sale representative. The car was fully restored 5 years ago, frame off restoration. Everything is working properly. Is free to rust, pets, smoke and accidents. The paint is flawless no dents or cracks and the chrome is like new. Was kept only inside. Mechanical no problems. Underneath very clean no rust or leaks. On the interior everything is working properly and is very clean.
I would like to thank you for your interest in buying my car and also to clearly some things first of all.
The reason why I'm selling it is a divorced settlement...I must share everything with my ex. I am very mad on this situation but I don't have any options, she will get most of the money. Priced for a quick sale. Because I'm dedicated to my career a third party company is the best choice for us. They will protect both of us in this transaction. I know it's been advertised in a few areas but the car is in Kettle Falls, WA crated and ready to go. I arranged for the sale before I left the country so my presence won't be necessary. They are supervising the entire sale process from payment, shipping with a inspection period (7 days), title(clear) transfer service or/and (if needed) returns and refunding. As for the payment we can start a transaction through the shipping company where I'm already registered. You will have to register too on their website, then you have to contact me to start the transaction. If you are serious about buying the car, shipping/handling is included in the price. You will only pay the car price.
If you want to move forward please contact me back so we can get the ball rolling. Don't let this beauty go away !!"

Thanks,

Mike

Topper2011
08-29-2018, 07:48 PM
Sounds sketchy.

Skip Lackie
08-29-2018, 07:56 PM
Run away. Too many alarm bells.

studefan
08-29-2018, 08:02 PM
You mention it's from your friend, Roger Cooper?

studegary
08-29-2018, 08:19 PM
I would steer clear of this, but if you want to string him along, at least get the Serial Number (someone here or at AOAI can tell you who the car really belongs to).

sweetolbob
08-29-2018, 08:33 PM
Tell him that you have spoken to a couple of knowledgeable Avanti experts and they have give you some areas to look for that are problematic to only Avanti's. Ask if he will allow an inspector to look at the car or would he provide pictures of the problem areas.

Bet you don't hear from him again. If you do either have it inspected or we will provide you with specific areas to photograph. Chances he won't have those photos if he's a scammer. If you get the required photos it might be worth more effort.

Before anything else have him provide the body tag number either 63R-xxxx or R-xxxx is the form it will be in, particularly in a picture. There are a lot of resources to track down Avanti's when you have the number.

Or just walk, your call. Bob

lelshaddai
08-29-2018, 08:48 PM
If you cannot speak to him in person walk away. The grammar and sentence structure alone sets off alarms. Offshore? What does that mean? Third Party? I agree, tell him you want to inspect it. You will not hear from him again.

VtMike
08-29-2018, 09:00 PM
Thanks for all of the advice.

My reference to Roger Cooper as my "friend" was a little joke . . . I have no idea who this guy is.

I think I will write back to him and say I need to see not only serial numbers but proof of ownership of that Avanti.

I agree the English in the email is weird . . . part of the reason my alarm bells were sounding.

ddub
08-30-2018, 01:32 AM
This is certainly a scam. Note that all his comments about the car are generic. No mention of usual Avanti trouble spots. Anyone trying to sell you an Avanti will mention the condition of the hog troughs, whether the fiberglass is showing any cracks etc.

ken-renda
08-30-2018, 08:14 AM
I have a REAL 63 Avanti for sale, it's in Virginia and is part of a disposal of an 11 car collection. Currently have my 57 Golden Hawk on Ebay, with the 63 Avanti to be listed in the next few days. If you are interested you may call 804 776 6215 and get into specific detail of its frame off restoration. Sent only 2 pic, car spent its entire life in Virginia and was traced to original owner family.

sweetolbob
08-30-2018, 09:25 AM
I have a REAL 63 Avanti for sale, it's in Virginia and is part of a disposal of an 11 car collection. Currently have my 57 Golden Hawk on Ebay, with the 63 Avanti to be listed in the next few days. If you are interested you may call 804 776 6215 and get into specific detail of its frame off restoration. Sent only 2 pic, car spent its entire life in Virginia and was traced to original owner family.

Excellent opportunity to look at and even purchase what appears to be a very nice example of the marque and also drive one. Some folks, me included, would have trouble driving the 63/64 stock seats for any significant distance.

Bob

VtMike
08-30-2018, 09:59 AM
Ken -

Red is my favorite color! The Avanti looks perfect. How much are you asking?

Mike

Jackson
08-30-2018, 10:20 AM
I am selling two of my Avanti's both are complete, fully documented and shown below. The turqouise is a 1964 R2, VIN 5388, some mods including 4 wheel discs, bored to 305CI, 200 4R trans, great driver. The black is a 1985 (VIN 4191) Touring Coupe, 10,100 documented miles. AC converted to R134, The 1985 scored 391 when judged at SDC meet in Omaha, the 1964 has never been judged.

paintim613
08-30-2018, 12:21 PM
I have a restored to stock '63 R1, rebuilt engine, lots of documentation, and many upgrades. A near perfect car with asking price of $41,000. Sound like more than you want to spend. Pics and more info at paintim613@aol.com.

Gunslinger
08-30-2018, 01:38 PM
If you're interested in an Avanti II, I plan on selling my '70 next year but earlier is ok as well. It's won numerous awards including SDC and AOAI First place awards twice. It has lots of upgrades...EFI, Recaro seats, overdrive automatic transmission.

ken-renda
08-30-2018, 01:45 PM
Ken -

Red is my favorite color! The Avanti looks perfect. How much are you asking?

Mike
1. I too got a "off shore" story that included paying $500 more than asking, that is if I accept his check. That ended that.

2. If you are interest in the low 30's I will put together more information and pictures about this 63 Avanti, R2, four speed. Suffice to say just about everything has been replaced, rebuilt, or refurbished, I mean everything. Hog troughs and frame are solid. I overhaul to original with the following exceptions; no door ashtrays, no AC radio rebuild, except dial and knobs, and it has been converted to Edelbrock pressurized carburetor with electric fuel pump, ending slow start-up, upholstery is real roll and pleated. If you can deal with the price, I'm about 100 miles south east of Washington DC. and you should see it before laying out that much money.

VtMike
08-30-2018, 02:00 PM
Ken - thanks for additional info on the '63. I am trying to adjust to the Avanti prices these days . . . may need some more time on that . . . but, on the other hand, your Avanti is exactly what I was hoping to find (except for AC) . . . Let me think about it for awhile.
Mike

61Lark
08-30-2018, 03:43 PM
I responded to a "want to buy" ad in Turning Wheels and received an email from another person about the car I had for sale. I hadn't listed the car any other place or even mentioned to anyone that my car was for sale.

VtMike
08-30-2018, 05:54 PM
So, today I Googled Avanti R2 for sale. Funny thing . . . I found the same Avanti pictures that Roger Cooper sent me on the Trovia (sp) website.

Beautiful car, same hard-to-believe price, and this time it says the car is in Miami, which seems to be consistent with the palm trees in the pictures. Roger Cooper claimed the car was in the State of Washington.

Anyway, I responded to the ad, asking who was selling the vehicle, etc. Can't imagine what response I will get this time.

Here is the website . . . I was wondering if anyone recognized the Avanti?

http://hotclassicdeals.com/details.php?id=5756

61Lark
08-30-2018, 06:16 PM
Here it is: https://bringatrailer.com/2017/02/25/factory-supercharged-4-speed-sharp-1963-studebaker-avanti/

TWChamp
08-30-2018, 07:10 PM
Ken, in #21 you mention a pressurized carb and an electric fuel pump. With a pressurized carb don't you need variable fuel pump pressure to correspond to the amount of boost pressure on the carb? And I was wondering how this is done when using an electric pump? Thanks, Tom

VtMike
08-31-2018, 09:40 AM
Today I heard back from "Roger Cooper". He provided a picture a serial number: "63R3900" - and, under that number is: "R05156." But that could just be a picture someone else posted online when selling an Avanti.

He didn't provide a picture of the title or anything else that would prove he owns the vehicle. Also, he said the car is in a crate and inspection prior to sale isn't possible, but that the car could be returned if the car isn't acceptable.

I was wondering what can be learned from the numbers he provided? Just curious about that.

75301

I am done with this one now. I would expose the guy if I could figure out how to do that, but don't have any ideas.

Mike

r1lark
08-31-2018, 10:00 AM
Look at this recent thread, post #12: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?106418-63-Avanti

That serial number is reported as being related to a scam. You can read the thread for more info.

sweetolbob
08-31-2018, 10:35 AM
Look interesting!!

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75301&d=1535726100

http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R3000/63R3906/63R3906x08022017/63R3906x08022017s.jpg

Pretty decent photoshop me thinks!

Thanks again Bob Johnstone. http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R3000/63R3906/63R3906x08022017/63R3906x08022017.html

You might want to not plan on owning this one.

Bob

VtMike
08-31-2018, 11:11 AM
Yes, pretty slick . . . I can't tell the difference.

Seems the only thing Roger Cooper is selling is dreams soaked in BullCrap.

Dwight FitzSimons
08-31-2018, 12:09 PM
I notice a couple things:
(1) The VIN plate (the silver one) is supposed to be riveted to the frame approximately straight below the body tag, not riveted to the body. Something doesn't look quite right about that VIN plate. The font looks too large, for one thing. And, don't the original plates have square corners? Also, the plate looks more like aluminum than stainless steel. (2) The body plate reads "RQ5156" (not RO5156) and it looks correct. So, it looks like someone has made up a fake VIN plate for some nefarious reason.
-Dwight

ken-renda
08-31-2018, 03:28 PM
Ken, in #21 you mention a pressurized carb and an electric fuel pump. With a pressurized carb don't you need variable fuel pump pressure to correspond to the amount of boost pressure on the carb? And I was wondering how this is done when using an electric pump? Thanks, Tom

Tom, the electric fuel pump is on a "push" switch and allows normal mechanical fuel pump to do its thing otherwise there would be a persistent over pressure. The shop did have a problem at first. I converted all of my cars to Edelbrock with a push switch, with vapor return to fuel tank, except for a 51 Land Cruiser, for some reason it has to run continually. It made for easier starts and eliminated vapor lock. Ken

BILT4ME
08-31-2018, 04:44 PM
Today I heard back from "Roger Cooper". He provided a picture a serial number: "63R3900" - and, under that number is: "R05156." But that could just be a picture someone else posted online when selling an Avanti.

He didn't provide a picture of the title or anything else that would prove he owns the vehicle. Also, he said the car is in a crate and inspection prior to sale isn't possible, but that the car could be returned if the car isn't acceptable.

I was wondering what can be learned from the numbers he provided? Just curious about that.

75301

I am done with this one now. I would expose the guy if I could figure out how to do that, but don't have any ideas.

Mike


Contact him and let him know that you will send a check (for $500 more than the asking price) as soon as you get your money from the Nigerian Prince that has promised to send you money!

nels
08-31-2018, 08:43 PM
Welcome and congratulations on your appreciation of great design. The Avanti is probably more bling for the buck than anything on the market today. Everyone who sees one recognizes it as unique. They love it or hate it, but can't ignore it.

jack vines

Well said, Jack!

Hawklover
09-02-2018, 10:13 AM
Mike do you want an R2, or R1?
Auto trans or 4-speed?
Need to have a/c or not?
These are questions you should be thinking of:-)

VtMike
09-02-2018, 01:09 PM
An R2 4 speed would be 1st choice. I'd really like to experience that supercharged power. If it had aftermarket a/c, that would be huge. But if there was an R2 automatic that had everything else I was looking for, I would give it a close look.

For 67 years I drove nothing but stick shift cars. But 2 years ago an SUV with auto became available, and it had everything else I wanted. Took me 10 minutes to decide to buy it, and I have no regrets.

I would also seriously consider a really good R1 with a 4 speed and a/c . . .

And, as I said in the 1st post, I would consider an Avanti II with a 4 speed and a/c.

So I have my preferences but they are not cast in stone. Except for one thing . . . perfect restored cars for $40-50K are out . . . I am sure they are great, but I need a little of my retirement check to live on . . .

Hawklover
09-02-2018, 04:00 PM
Mike,
There is a fellow up your way, or not too far from you in Massachusetts that sells lots of Studebaker parts and generally has his hand in all things Studebaker, might give him a call and see if he knows of any Avantis for sale.
His name is David Thibeault. Good luck:-)

VtMike
09-23-2018, 11:26 AM
Gunslinger - is your 1970 Avanti II the one that was on Ebay a couple of years ago? If so, that is a damn handsome car. I will be in Clear Spring for a few days over the Oct 6th weekend and may be able to come and look at your Avanti. Price?

Gunslinger
09-23-2018, 03:51 PM
I'll be around. Price is negotiable. I planned on waiting until next year to sell it but I've no objection to selling it prior to that. I wanted one more season of fun with it but it's been a wet year and most of the car shows I planned on attending were canceled or something else interfered. My wife and I want to downsize and relocate to Free America when she retires in a couple of years and I want to begin letting things go before that.

Buzzard
09-24-2018, 10:30 AM
Mike, it stinks. I had a similar situation a few years back with the seller being overseas, vehicle pre-packaged, divorse proceedings etc., third party involved in payment etc. As stated, "Run away".
As Jack states, they (especially Avanti II'S) are a terrific value, hand built, approx 200 per year, Chev small block running gear, later ones were equipped with leather Recaro seats. There is virtually no comparison in other makes. I know, I have two.
Good luck in your search.
Bill