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View Full Version : Avanti water pump - differences from standard?



john Mitchell
06-19-2018, 07:59 AM
what is the difference between a regular 289 water pump and an avanti water pump ? what will happen if you use a regular one in an avanti?

pinehurstbob
06-19-2018, 08:30 AM
My understanding of the difference is in the size of the bearing. Avanti pumps have a larger bearing that takes the wear better as more runs off the belt, ie supercharger, ac , than on most Studebakers. I believe they each pump the same amount, so my guess is that nothing will happen but it will fail sooner if you run a "regular" pump.
Bob

bezhawk
06-19-2018, 08:39 AM
No, actually the shaft, and bearing are the same part on Avanti, and non R series v8s. The differences are in the front pulley hub, and the cast housing itself. Avantis use cast pulleys and also a thermostatic fan clutch,so the hub is deeper. Also there is side tension of the supercharger if it is so equipped. All of these factors led to failure of the weaker non ribbed or reinforced housings, and the casting broke behind the bearing, and the whole shebang went through the radiator. Not a good thing.

Bud
06-19-2018, 04:36 PM
I learned the hard way years ago when I installed a standard non R pump on an Avanti. It took about three weeks for the pump snout to fracture due to the extra side load put on the pump shaft, so I don't recommend a pump that isn't meant for an R engine. Bud

pinehurstbob
06-20-2018, 08:25 AM
I too have heard of cases where the pump failed and fan went through the rad. I knew that the Avanti pump had a larger casting and always thought it was to accomodate a larger bearing, but apparently not. Thanks for setting the record straight. You learn something every day.
Bob

63 R2 Hawk
06-20-2018, 10:55 AM
If the number on the casting is 527070for the R2 pump, I have one laying around that I carried with me as a spare. IIRC, it was rebuilt many years ago and never used. Make me a reasonable offer if you can use it.

StudeRich
06-20-2018, 01:02 PM
Way back when Studebaker was still building Cars, that 527070 Number was used for the Basic Casting, way before there were Avantis. Somehow in later years the aftermarket Vendors must have incorrectly numbered the REPRODUCTION H.D. Avanti Pump Castings with that Old Standard Pump Number. :( It is quite obvious due to the 1951 Part Number.

So what I am trying to say is, ALL pumps with that casting number are not necessarily H.D. Avanti Pumps. :ohmy:

It is ALL about the 3 Webs or Gussets that provide better support for the Bearing and shaft and also the only thing that makes a Std. Pump a no fit on an Avanti; the LONG Centering, center Nose of the Hub for the Viscous Drive Unit!

From what I can see of this Pump shown is, it does not have either Avanti Pump characteristic, so this "Rebuild" was incorrectly sold as Avanti because of the misunderstood casting number which really means nothing on a Rebuild.

To further add to the confusion, I sell the H.D. non-Avanti Pumps for Supercharged and Air Conditioned Cars with the reinforced Casting, but not the Special Hub for the Viscous Drive Unit. :rolleyes:

63 R2 Hawk
06-20-2018, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the info. Glad I never had to use it!

Hawklover
10-29-2018, 10:58 PM
Consider removing the cast iron pulley and replacing with an aluminum one, takes significant weight off of the water pump bearing.

64V-K7
10-30-2018, 08:21 AM
Alternatively, if you put an Avanti WP on a standard engine, get ready to do a dance finding the correct spacers/pulleys to make it fit...

Mike Sal
10-30-2018, 09:39 AM
As far as I know, there have been 3 different water pump body castings used for v8 engines. A) original thin wall casting; B) Aftermarket thin wall casting (originally tooled by Essex, who then sold out to Airtex.....which supplied to SASCO up till the early 70's); and C; the "Stone" heavy duty casting which has a thicker neck for the bearing (the photo above is a thick wall casting).

All were tooled for the "5/8" shaft bearings. There are 2 different types of water pump bearings.....standard "ball-ball" (meaning there are 2 rows of balls on the inside) and "ball-roller" (one row off balls in the back half and 1 row of rollers in the front). The ball roller has a much higher capacity (for loads like AC or superchargers).

As mentioned above, the length of the shaft and the hub used are the variables when it comes to fit for any particular application. My advise has always been if you are running more than a standard load (generator, power steering pump), you should consider the heaviest pump you can get. I think SI carries the thick wall casting pumps, but can't remember for sure.
Mike Sal

Hawklover
11-03-2018, 08:28 AM
Mike that being said.......if one orders a new Avanti pump, how can one determine if it has the better ball/roller arrangement?
As far as I know, there have been 3 different water pump body castings used for v8 engines. A) original thin wall casting; B) Aftermarket thin wall casting (originally tooled by Essex, who then sold out to Airtex.....which supplied to SASCO up till the early 70's); and C; the "Stone" heavy duty casting which has a thicker neck for the bearing (the photo above is a thick wall casting).

All were tooled for the "5/8" shaft bearings. There are 2 different types of water pump bearings.....standard "ball-ball" (meaning there are 2 rows of balls on the inside) and "ball-roller" (one row off balls in the back half and 1 row of rollers in the front). The ball roller has a much higher capacity (for loads like AC or superchargers).

As mentioned above, the length of the shaft and the hub used are the variables when it comes to fit for any particular application. My advise has always been if you are running more than a standard load (generator, power steering pump), you should consider the heaviest pump you can get. I think SI carries the thick wall casting pumps, but can't remember for sure.
Mike Sal

StudeRich
11-03-2018, 11:24 PM
Since these are NOW all reproduced by the same Company to the Original Blueprints,
the Std. V8, the H.D. V8 and the Avanti H.D. V8 are very likely ALL the same type bearings since they all have the same size Bearing, so I don't believe it matters.

I just happen to be one of few Studebaker Vendors selling the H.D. V8 Pumps for non-Avanti, H.D. usage on Air Cond. and Supercharged Studes.

Here is the H.D. V8: https://www.ebay.com/itm/223201603404

Here is the H.D. Avanti V8: https://www.ebay.com/itm/223201602078

Mike Sal
11-04-2018, 10:11 PM
Back when I was rebuilding v8 pumps, a bearing for a '71 ford truck (289 engine) was a close match if I remember right. There is usually a number stamped on the end of the bearing shaft & it can be de-coded to let you know if it's a ball-ball or a ball-roller (the numbers vary by manufacturer).
mike S

Hawklover
11-05-2018, 09:55 AM
If a water pump was purchased in 1995 never used and stored in a plastic bag would it still be good to keep as a spare?
Just do not know if I should buy another one to keep as a spare.

Mike Sal
11-05-2018, 12:21 PM
If the pump was a "new" production pump, it has a cartridge type seal and they store fairly well for a spare.

If the pump is a rebuilt original (or rebuilt Airtex / Essex), the seal is a "two piece" construction. This means the actual body casting is part of the seal. One side of the seal is made of molded carbon / phenolic and is mounted in the impeller. The face of the carbon seal rubs (and is supposed to seal) against the ground & polished face of the body casting.

If the pump is stored where moisture can get to it, the polished surface of the casting will start to rust and will compromise the sealing surface. Keep any spare rebuilt pumps in a dry environment if they are going to be setting on the shelf as spares.

Another big tip is to never ever start an engine with no coolant in it if the fan belt is on. Those seals will get very hot very fast and will wear thousands of miles off of their life span if you do.
Mike Sal

Hawklover
11-05-2018, 05:31 PM
Many thanks Mike...candidly I have no idea what the seal looks like.......was purchased around 1995. I know it was not a pump I gave to have re-built......Thibeault sold it to me back then. The pump has been sitting in my trunk since 1995-ish in a plastic bag within the cardboard box.
I will say one thing.....putting a water pump in an Avanti is a real PITA.....one should have a helper hold up the fan as the bolts are fastened.....I have done it by myself in the past.....but never again:-(

nels
11-05-2018, 09:19 PM
I use to rebuild the Stude pumps using a ball roller configuration. The roller had to face the front and it carried the belt load and the ball was in the rear to take the thrust. The Avanti pump casting is taller than the standard pump. Reason being that the ball ball type bearing used in all Stude pumps was positioned further forward than in a standard pump. This allowed the belt load to be shared equally on the rear and front ball bearing sets. Using a standard short casting on the Avanti results in all the load directed into the front bearing set which quickly fried the front bearing. The roller ball configuration could be used on the Avanti as replacements back then as no tall castings pumps were available. The distance from the pump gasket surface to the pulley flange surface is the same for the standard or tall/ Avanti style.

pinehurstbob
11-06-2018, 08:31 AM
I will say one thing.....putting a water pump in an Avanti is a real PITA.....one should have a helper hold up the fan as the bolts are fastened.....I have done it by myself in the past.....but never again:-([/QUOTE]

Have had similar experience in the past, and that is why both of my 259,s have had studs installed in place of bolts. It means you only need 1 set of hands.
Bob

Hawklover
11-06-2018, 11:30 AM
Bob that is a great idea!!! never even thought of that!
I will say one thing.....putting a water pump in an Avanti is a real PITA.....one should have a helper hold up the fan as the bolts are fastened.....I have done it by myself in the past.....but never again:-(

Have had similar experience in the past, and that is why both of my 259,s have had studs installed in place of bolts. It means you only need 1 set of hands.
Bob[/QUOTE]

brngarage
11-06-2018, 05:59 PM
I just picked up a '62 GT Hawk that has factory A/C and P/S. It also has a fan clutch. Looks very original and hasn't run for a while. How can I be sure I have the correct water pump? Thanks Howard

StudeRich
11-06-2018, 06:43 PM
You can ALMOST be assured 99.5%, that you do NOT have the Best!

The Non-Avanti H.D. Air Cond. and Supercharged Water Pumps as in Post #13 were only available in the New Aftermarket type a few years ago, they were NEVER before available OEM or otherwise.

Just look for 3 Vanes or Gussets bracing the Center Bearing "Neck".

Actually, IF it is fairly New and not leaking it's good for NOW, until it gets loose, noisy or leaks.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/KAUAAOSwgGBbpFvG/s-l1600.jpg

Mike Sal
11-07-2018, 09:48 AM
Another thing to be careful about with Studebaker V8 water pumps when installing them....make sure the "weep hole" is at the 6 o'clock position. it will either be a cast rectangular hole, or a drilled hole near where the bearing neck meets the base of the pump. You don't know how many times I've seen pumps installed upside down on Studebakers. What happens is if the seal starts to leak, the coolant pools up in the space between the seal and the bearing. This allows the coolant to get into the bearing and destroy the grease. Once that happens, the balls get rough and the shaft can wobble which can let all kinds of bad things happen.
Mike Sal