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Dutch
10-08-2006, 07:40 AM
I have just acquired an all-chrome fuel delivery system (ala Vintage Speed), and a polished Offy head for my 1950 169cid engine. This setup obviously neccesitates a new exhaust system, and I would like to install dual exhaust headers that are as attractive as my head, & intake carb setup. However, the only aftermarket headers I've seen (those made by Bill Cathcart) are, quite frankly, ugly as hell. And while Mr. Cathcart's headers may function beautifully, having already spent way too much money on making everything else in the engine bay smooth and shiny, I can't see not having headers that are just as pretty as everything else. :)

I've searched the web, and the forums here, but this has yielded nothing. Does anybody know of an aftermarket/custom header setup that will fit in with the rest of the "show parts" I've installed in my engine bay? Or, does anybody know of a fabricator who can craft a pair of headers for me, but won't charge me a grand to do so?

Thanks.

-Dutch

am not r2
10-08-2006, 09:20 AM
If you want art...I saw some this spring at Southbend...find Digger Dave. I was in awe of his skill and function.
If the Cathcart stuff is not nice enough as is,(I think it's nice and a nicer guy is hard to find)get some and clean it up at home and then send them to "Jet Hot". The coating is real nice and if you read their info it is funtional as hell. Thin film tech at its best.

cathcar/jet hot will get the look and perfomance you want. at a price.


but hey....it's only money right?

64 Daytona HT

CHAMP
10-08-2006, 09:52 AM
They also make a high temp silver paint that looks pretty good. I put it on my stock exhaust manifold a little over a year ago and it still looks good. It comes in a spray can and a lot cheaper than powder coating but not as functional. Powder coat would be best.:)

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

garyash
10-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Here's a nice looking set of pipes on a Champ-powered sprint car. We don't need no stinkin' mufflers!
http://www.studegarage.com/images/midget_champ6_2_sm.jpg

[img=left]http://www.studegarage.com/images/gary_ash_m5_sm.jpg[/img=left] Gary Ash
Dartmouth, Mass.
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
web site at http://www.studegarage.com

DilloCrafter
10-08-2006, 02:53 PM
Hey Dutch,
Did you win that eBay auction for the dual intake and the finned Champion head? That was a nice looking set of items.

I got the Bill Cathcart exhaust headers. The reason they seem ugly, perhaps, is that they are simply a stock cast iron header that has been sawed off of a Champion intake/exhaust header setup, then added onto by Bill's expert welding. Did you see what mine look like on the engine? I had them ceramic coated in an "aluminum" color, to be a close match to the dual Offy intake manifold:

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/restoration/motor-withBiggsyBlingDamper.JPG

Here's a photo before they were attached:
http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/restoration/coated_cathcart_headers.jpg

I used a guy in Dallas, who did nice and fast work, at a reasonable price. He has done a lot of headers, and recommended that I not use the "near chrome" coating, since these headers are mostly rough cast iron. He said that most people go with black, so the headers "disappear". They usually are not the high point under the hood.

And I echo what am not r2 (I love that name :D) said about Bill Cathcart. He would be great for you to work with - he has an outstanding reputation.

Back to the guy who did my ceramic coating, Stan Wilder, here is an excerpt from an email message he sent to me. I've replaced the prices with XX.XX because I don't know his current prices. However, once I told him the sizes of these headers, he gave me a price that was substantially less than his website's price for V8 headers.

- from Stan Wilder at http://www.engineceramics.com
True that cast iron is more porous but we've never had any problems with Cast Iron parts when we coated them in Satin Black or Cast Iron color.
Coating them first with Cermakrome would do nothing more than coating them with two coats of Satin Black and you get that anyway since the spraying process is overlaying the edges on application.
Coating them with Cermakrome first would jusy add about $XX.00 to the price and true it would be a smoother surface on NEW Cast Manifolds, on old cast manifolds or your combination it still will not be a filler that made the cast and smooth tube blend.
Best shot is either Satin Black or Cast Iron color.
I see the headers in Satin Black or Cast Iron as $XX.00 the pair.
If you want that Cermakrome base add $XX.00.

Thanks
Stan Wilder
214-352-4931

Like I mentioned earlier, I opted for an "aluminum" color, not the Cast Iron that he described above.




http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

Dutch
10-08-2006, 11:11 PM
Dillo: Nope, not me on the eBay stuff. And you're right; the problem isn't that Mr. Cathcart's work is sub-par. In fact, given what his starting material looks like, his finished product is pretty amazing. But the OEM manifolds weren't exactly designed to be show pieces, and though I suspect I could massage some of the pits, ridges, casting flash, and other ugliness from them, but they'll never be pretty.

Am: Is Dave a member of the forums? Does he have a website (google says no)? Do you know where I might find some pics of the manifolds you speak of?

Thanks.

-Dutch

Dick Steinkamp
10-08-2006, 11:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dutch
Does he have a website



http://www.cathcartsstudebaker.com/



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Dutch
10-09-2006, 12:53 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by Dutch
Does he have a website



http://www.cathcartsstudebaker.com/



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg
No, no; Dave, not Bill. :)

am not r2
10-09-2006, 09:30 AM
I am not sure Dutch where to find him. I have met him and I know that he is involved with the salt to salt group. he did some intatke fab for them I think.
he is in the southbend area possably. I really don't know. a good place to start is the news group. search there for digger dave in old posts. somebody has to know.
he is a good guy. great humor. the best alum. welder I have ever seen. the tubes in his champ engine were art. I would never have mounted and run them..... search the news group or ask in a post there. some one will set you in the right direction.
as an after thought. go to the membership directory(you do have one right?) find the officers for the michi-ana chapter and email them. they would have to know. the engine I saw was in an old pich up. m5 if I remember correctly.I may be off by a few years though.Rich



64 Daytona HT

garyash
10-10-2006, 12:28 PM
In Sept. 2005, there were some photos posted here of a fabulous Champ 6 setup. I think it belonged to Dave Strand. His headers might meet your ideal of how they should look.
http://www.studegarage.com/images/other/champ6_dave_strand_t5dual.jpg

[img=left]http://www.studegarage.com/images/gary_ash_m5_sm.jpg[/img=left] Gary Ash
Dartmouth, Mass.
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard
web site at http://www.studegarage.com

CHAMP
10-10-2006, 03:06 PM
Now thats a set of headers, I wonder how much they cost?:)

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

Dutch
10-12-2006, 12:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by garyash

In Sept. 2005, there were some photos posted here of a fabulous Champ 6 setup. I think it belonged to Dave Strand. His headers might meet your ideal of how they should look.....


Wow. WOW. Damn, I need a cold shower.

Anybody know Dave's contact info? Or whereabouts he's from so I can look him up?

-Dutch

John Kirchhoff
10-13-2006, 04:44 PM
Yes I know I'm kind of a party pooper, but here it goes. I admit that headers on a flat head six look cool, but I wonder if that's about all they contribute, just looks. For one thing, the L head design forces the intake and exhaust flow into an ineffecient, convoluted path of entry and exit. Just look at the horsepower increase when Stude went to overhead valves, better flow characteristics with an increase of 500 usable rpm and 22 horsepower.

Designing functional headers is a lot more than just welding up a bunch of pipes. Header pipe length and diameter has an impact on the power characteristics, sometimes good, sometimes bad and sometimes both depending upon the engine rpm. A header pipe that's too large in diameter does nothing for increasing power except maybe reduce restriction (if that happens to be a problem, which isn't always the case). A pipe that's too large gives the exhaust pulse too much room to expand and velocity (energy) is lost. The pulse velocity in a header sustem is very important because it must be of sufficient speed and energy to travel to the end of the header, hit the collector or muffler baffle, be reflected back towards the exhaust port and be reflected back again toward the outlet. The length of the header pipe then comes into play. If the length if correct, when the pulse is reflected the second time, it is at the same time the next exhaust pulse is exiting the exhaust port. The first pulse then helps push the second pulse toward the exit and helps clear exhaust gasses from the cylinder. The second pulse then helps clear the third and so on.

The problem is, there is no "one size fits all rpm" header lengths. I doubt there's ever been a header system built for cars, motorcycles, etc that doesn't have a "flat spot" somewhere on the power curve. The flat spot is where power fails to increase with the increase in rpm's. In fact, I've seen quite a few dyno curves where the power actually dropped at certain engine speeds (usually there's only one flat spot). This is when the combination of exhaust pulse timing (rpm) and header length causes the exhaust pulse to still be traveling toward the exhaust port when the valve opens. The second exhaust pulse then has to push against the previous pulse. The increase in back pressure slows the exit of exhaust gases from the cylinder, which results in less inertia to pull the intake charge into the cylinder during valve timing overlap. Changing the length of the header pipe will move the flat spot up or down the rpm band but not eliminate it. Conversely, there will be a narrow rpm range where the reflected pulses coincide perfectly with the exiting exhaust pulses and power will be substantially increased. For everywhere else on the powerband, power will be somewhat higher or lower than with a conventional exhaust system.

Header systems also lack thermal effeciency compared to a conventional log style header. Thinner walled header pipes combined with more surface area than the conventional setup permits a greater radiation of heat. (Ask a guy with headers about the increase in heat under the hood.) As an exhaust pulse cools, it loses velocity. That's why you've seen engines on a dyno with asbestos wrapped around the header pipes; it's to retain heat and maintain velocity. Heat loss and pipe diameter too large both decrease velocity which nullifies pulse deflection. Since noise impacts our seat of the pants impression of power, dyno testing is the only way you can design a header system that is going to give you an increase in power where you want it. Headers function great on an engine that spends most of it's time in a narrow rpm range. That's ok for race cars, but for the family sedan, that's something else. But if looks is what you're after, they sure do look cool and the more chrome, the cooler thay are!